Beat Mixing--Phrasing

[nrgbeat]

Here's a question I'll throw out to the pro's.

You're playing song A, you want to mix into song B which has a 32 beat intro of drum beats but you don't want to mix into empty drums, you want the vocal to kick in as soon as you switch to song B.

How do you know when to start mixing in song B so that the vocals of song B come in at a logical place and it's seamless?

[Super D]

Originally Posted by nrgbeat

Here's a question I'll throw out to the pro's.

You're playing song A, you want to mix into song B which has a 32 beat intro of drum beats but you don't want to mix into empty drums, you want the vocal to kick in as soon as you switch to song B.

How do you know when to start mixing in song B so that the vocals of song B come in at a logical place and it's seamless?

Are the drum kicks very similar.?..if so just ride them until you can smoothly fade/or cut song A out...I think it is wack to blend in with a vocal...unless it's acapella.

super d(motordetroit) 8)

[nrgbeat]

Ok--but once song A fades out I want the vocals to start on B so it's seamless. Basically what I'm asking is how does one trim the fat (so to speak) on song intros so when you mix the next song starts right at the vocal and not into an empty drum beat.

I assume the dj must have to count the number of beats while mixing, but I'm not sure if that's how it's done and how does one determine the mix in point.

[Super D]

I think you are making this harder than it is. Counting beats and all that stuff is a waste of time. Do you have a good ear on beats? Do you know your music before you start a mix? What I do sometimes is cut the bass out of the track I'm blending in, then slowly rise the base until it matches the base of the song blending out. Also learn to use your channel faders to cut your songs out......I can't tell you the last time I blended out using a crossfader.......It sounds so much cleaner cutting out with channel faders.

super d(motordetroit) 8)

[NickNack]

Without knowing the song you're mixing out of (song 'A'), yes, you're going to have to count from a point of you're choosing. You know you have 32 beats (if you're overlaying the entire intro of song 'B') so find those measures in the other song that allow for this. If it has a long fade... great. Just don't stomp one vocal on top of the other. Really irritating.

As for "trimming the fat": Easy. Don't overlay the full intro 'to the house'. Work the mix in your headphone and release at the right time. The right time being the point where no other vocal is present. Example: Run 24 drum beats in your ear, bring up volume for last measure (8 beats) and fade 'A' when vocal begins. Doing it this way you can create your own entry point, especially if there's not really 32 beats in song 'A' to fool around with.

All in all, that "logical place" to mix in is something you're going to have to feel and find with practice. Not wanting to mix into 'empty drums' may sound like a good idea. You won't know until you hear the mix "live" and see if the 'power-vocal intro' is really what you want to use. Each song will present differently.

[QUINNY]

NRG: You need a masterclass from yours truly!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

It really isn't that difficult.

Forget about 32 beats but think more in terms of 8 Bars and 16 Bars, where 1 Bar equals 4 beats. It cuts down the maths.

Most disco mixes (but most certainly NOT all) will be variations of this formula. Most will be 16 Bar sequences.

Intro - This can be 1,2,3,4 or more 16 Bar sequences.
Verse - 16 Bars
Chorus - 16 Bars
2nd Verse - 16 Bars
Chorus - 16 Bars
Break - 16 bars, maybe 32 or more
Chorus - 16 Bars
3rd Verse - 16 Bars
Chorus - 16 Bars
2nd Break - 16 Bars, maybe 32 or more
Verse - 16 Bars
Chorus - 16 Bars or more to fade

Therefore, thinking in these Bar sequences makes mixing much easier, so long as you start your incoming record at the right point (i.e. on the first beat of a new 8 or 16 Bar sequence, NOT on beat 19, 22 whatever). All you have to do then is get it in sync WITHOUT fading up and run with the other record until YOU choose to start fading in (as Nicky already stated) making sure that you keep 'em in sync. After doing this enough times, eventually you'll get a feel for where you are in any 8,12,16,20, or 24 Bar sequence and it'll become second nature to you.

I personally don't see any problem with mixing vocal to vocal, especially if you're mixing into a verse by tagging onto the back end of the previous record's chorus. However, I have known the odd verse to verse mix to work and certainly chorus to chorus can be very effective at times. As Nicky previously wrote, overlaying vocals is damned annoying, but as long as you count your Bars right and start running the incoming record at the correct place in the Bar sequence, it shouldn't ever be a problem, except...........some records will have a funny little Bar long tag on or something equally stupid to completely throw you. You just gotta know the records.

The most important thing in mixing is to let the record's natural dynamics work for you, wherever they occur. Look for crescendos to build up the tensions so that a perfect mix can release them and appear seemless. Often, vocal entries will have some sort of crescendo immediately before them and that's what makes mixing to them sooo effective and natural sounding.

[nrgbeat]

Thanks guys. Quinny, my only comment regarding your info is that one can't assume all intros are 16 bars. A lot of remix services use 8 bars or 32 beats.

Here's why I asked the question.

I was listening to some mixes on the internet. The dj mixed out of song A into Prince's "When Doves Cry". A few seconds before he mixed out of A you could hear the drums from Prince and then when he made the transition the vocals started on the dime.

My immediate thought was how did he know when to start the Prince record so that the vocal kicked in at the right time.

[QUINNY]

NRG: Now you've got me puzzled.

If this one mix made your ears prick up, it would suggest that no other mix that you've heard has been as good sounding. That would suggest that all the previous mixes you've heard have all been totally, badly mixed. Every mix should be as good as the one you refer to, if a DJ was worth his salt.

See why I'm puzzled? I'm sure the overall standard couldn't have been that bad.

BTW: I DID infer that intros could be almost any length, didn't I?

BTW 2: What record did he mix ''Doves' out of?

[nrgbeat]

I never said this mix was better than any other mix that I've heard or this dj was better than any other. I was trying to understand his technique, as I found it interesting that he was able to get the vocal to come on at the right point.

The song preceeding "Doves" was "When I Hear Music" by Debbie Deb.

[Mixmachine]

Wow, :o those are very good explanations NickNack and Quinny laid out there, I always have a hard time trying to put this process into words. :x Let's see :-?

I personally mostly kept track of 4 bars (16 beats), 8 bars (32 beats)16 bars (64 beats) and so on (used label markings) since I hardly ever mixed on beat '5' or ‘9’ , I called this groupings of beats, “measures” (I believe musically the term is incorrectly applied here), for me beat counting bars in a long chorus for example could be more confusing, instead once you learn to follow the music/vocals arrangements (usually 16/32 beats)you can easily pick up the 8,16, 32, 64 etc song structure and you learn to pick up when instruments/vocals will kick in very easy.

Some intros had odd combinations, i.e. 5 bars or 20 beats, so in order to mix the incoming song correctly here (16, 32 beats structure) one needs to cue up song B’s intro on beat ‘5’ (eliminating one bar)in order to be in sync with A, (Quinny is right , it’s all Math, really) this way you can ride the mix until you are ready to let go and your mix will perfectly fall on B’s beat ‘1’ after the last bar you chose for A ( 16th beat) ; Another difficult thing to do is cueing up Beat -Less vocal intros, it takes a bit of experience to master this, but once you learn it’s fun to lay it over a nice ‘break’ and then chop mix after a nice drum roll as the intro ends and the song kicks into full speed. :P

A few Disco songs were written around 5 bars or 20 beats, throwing everything off (for Djs ), “I love the Nightlife” is one of them, the solution is similar to the example above, if you want to mix into Alicia’s vocals at the song’s end you had to cue up your incoming song B on beat ‘5’ (second bar)of song A eliminating a bar and basically cutting her vocal “measure” down to a manageable 4 bars (16 beats), this way you can fade out of Alicia’s vocals (as beat 20 or fifth bar's end) and the incoming song (B)will drop perfectly on beat ‘1’ of the new bar, the only trick in this example is that you only had a total of 16 beats to work with before you need to execute your mix, if you miss and run into the next vocal measure then you will be off again, :lol: if you wanted to do this on purpose, you’d need to cue up 2 bars (8 beats ) into Alicia’s vocals and so on, ain’t this fun :lol: :lol: ,

Another irregular song was Blondie’s 12” of “Heart of Glass”, there is an instrumental portion where they cut off beat 8 (or 16) and replace it with beat “1” of the next bar, (don’t know if the album is the same) it sounds great but you don’t want to be cueing up here, :lol: luckily is only half way through the song so you can wait further down the 12” to mix out without headaches… 8)

[nrgbeat]

Here's another mix where the dj did the same thing. Some of you may want to try this at home.

He mixed from "Billie Jean" by MJ into the Disconet mix of "Don't You Want Me" by Human League.

If you mix in to the beginning of Human League you get a lot of empty beats but he brings it in where the synthesizer kicks in. Right before the synth kicks in you can hear the lead singer sing "don't you want me baby" .

[Mixmachine]

If you mix in to the beginning of Human League you get a lot of empty beats but he brings it in where the synthesizer kicks in. Right before the synth kicks in you can hear the lead singer sing "don't you want me baby" .

Nrgbeat, this sort of careful planning was done like that all the time in the old days, good mixes don't happen by accident, listening to a DJ make this decisions as to where to "Drop” the mix was one of the aspects that made it fun for discriminating listeners, for a DJ the mixing possibilities are limitless and this is why different Djs had different styles, only around the early 90’s I noticed a new breed of working DJs that mixed any where along the song without following any structure at all, mixes were bland and lacked any ‘punch’ at all , but the worse thing for me was that the crowds were still dancing, :o and soon after I realized that nobody cared anymore..…. :cry:

(I mentioned the following before but what the heck :P )
Here is a mix I used to love to do and watch the crowd's reaction to the mix, the song is “Blue Monday” by New order (12”), I never heard any other local DJs mix this song in this particular spot (maybe some did) as most DJs already had mixed into this song by this point; I used to by pass like the first minute or so, and start my cue up process when the synth/bass portion first takes off, this portion I believe has 4 sets of 16 beats or 64 beats total ( 16 bars), then that tremendous loud long drum roll (8 beats) kicks in followed by more synths that everyone identifies as “Blue Monday”, use the 64 beat portion to slowly fade in/overlay over a similar song and then ‘Chop’ right at that ‘roll’ point and watch the floor erupt into cheers! Ah the good old days..

[discopsycho]

I've been reading this topic with interest. I am a "bedroom" dj now (I used to dj during the disco era as a teenager for private parties and dances with primitive equipment and without really knowing what I was doing - but I had fun and so did my friends) and can mix modern dance tracks together quite easily since they all have pretty much the same structure and computer beats, but when I make disco mixes it can be quite frustrating. Of course, the beats can vary wildly due to live drummers, but the structures of songs often vary also. But when I get a good mix, it is just thrilling.

Lately, I have been buying all the various artist disco records I can find that are mixed by dj's. One of the most recent I found on ebay was a promo done by Richie Kazcor. I noticed a lot of the mixes were "crash" mixes. I guess blending wasn't done as often then as now mostly due to live drummers. Is this true?

I remember when I snuck into clubs, the mixing just seemed fantasic, but maybe the music sounded different in a club than when you are listening at home and are more apt to pay closer attention.

[Super D]

"Discophysco", I know what ya' mean :oops: ....I'm also a former D.J.... I too, remember when D.Jing was more than just mixing predetermined bpms......The thing is, in the days of mixing live drum records we had to do things differently to offer a continues mix of music....like early fade-outs.....slowing records in real time to match beats.....cutting table 2 right on the beat of table 1.....Keeping the crowd hyped with our voices until we fade up table 2....These were some of the things that had to be done(Man talk'in bout work!) ....that's just the way the music was.....The people listening to the mix did'nt pay it much attention, because then the Artist of the record was more popular....only you knew when a mix was off......and obviously the technology has changed......I didn't get my first 1200 until I was 25(remember those old belt drives!.......Today I mix Techno and House(in my basement).....so much more relaxing these days.....I remember once, I cooked and entire dinner doing a house mix-cd .....Try doing that with a Classic Disco Mix.(not!) :o .....So we have to understand that, today's supporters of the DJing art, are trained to the ear of the House and Techno Music DJ mixers. And will not support anything less than hot tracks that are perfectly blended together. In otherwords Technology has simplified things to the modern DJ........On the otherhand, I have 3 classics Disco mixes from 1979 on TDK cassette tapes from a Chicago radio station from Jullian"Jump'in"Perez and to the new-school listerner the mix would seem wack!(or do they still use the term wack? :lol: ) Disco DJ's of the pass only would understand the frustration of the live DJ set mistakes and the simplicity of cuts and fades that were used.

super d(motordetroit) 8)

[discokicks]

Originally Posted by nrgbeat

Here's another mix where the dj did the same thing. Some of you may want to try this at home.

He mixed from "Billie Jean" by MJ into the Disconet mix of "Don't You Want Me" by Human League.

If you mix in to the beginning of Human League you get a lot of empty beats but he brings it in where the synthesizer kicks in. Right before the synth kicks in you can hear the lead singer sing "don't you want me baby" .

Bringing up a ghost from the past but I thought I'd add my two cents here (course it's Canadian so it's worth a bit less).

I think what you may have been hearing is a mix that the dj has probably done before if not numerous times. I know there are times where I've discovered two songs that just seem fitting to play one after the other and so I'll play around with the two at home looking for a good place to join them.

Now with today's mixes, there's often two to three minutes of intro so it doesn't take much effort to segue them. If, however, I want to bring in the vocals earlier rather than bore my crowd with another couple minutes of a dj's lovely loop job :lol: , during my cueing, I'll quickly forward into the song those couple of minutes (it's easy with cds or just place the needle inwards on the vinyl). Now just listen in your headphones to exactly where you are in the song. If, in the case of a cd, you hear vocals, you're too far so then you need to reverse it back a bit....keeping in mind the number of beats or bars it will take before the vocal begins. With cd players, you hit the 'cue' button to where you want to start and that's your new beginning.

A lot of those mixes do need practice at home. When I'm mixing live, many times if I know there's about a minute or more of the song that I'm not interested in having the crowd hear, I'll start the song early, listening to it in my headphones. This allows you plenty of time to get the beats synchronized. I'll bring up the volume when that moment arrives where I want the crowd to hear it too (then the screaming and 'oh my God...I loooove this song' starts happening). :lol: