The CD Theory

[Sami M]

Amen! :D

I sometimes read hi-fi reviews and so, but got bored of them really quickly. Only reason I do read them is to find out what new is up and where the technology is going a.s.o. But , like Forrrce wrote, the reviews of cd-players and other equopment worth 10.000 € and more and the their differences in sound when compared to each other. Mon Dieu, just chit chat, maybe a hobby went bit too far...?

My own hi-fi interest is to get pure and dynamic sound, and I think it can be reached when picking up the little better built and designed stuff than the cheapest plastic ones. I'm a hifist at about a same level as I would take Technics sl-1200 and not Omnitronic or something like it.

What comes to djing today, I think it's absolute nonsense that they do not use the cd-format. There are no real reasons why to stick to vinyl. With today's cd-players you can do much more inetresting mixing on the fly than with a vinyl, turntabalism is a different thing.

I'd say holding on to vinyl is holding on to past or to try to posses something unique and rare. :-?

In most cases however I like the older stuff on vinyl on which is what originally produced. But thats for nostalgic reasons. I only hope that the were more good remasterings available on cd and that some mind would be put in the coverart aswell when the republish the old stuff.

I don't really know what to think of the SACD or DVD thing? To be honest, I don't need either for audio, cd is enough for me.

Oh, yeah, and them hifist say, that the copy controlled cds are not cds at all...

[QUINNY]

I wonder if Hi-MD will reveive the format's fortune.


LAS VEGAS (CES Booth #N109), Jan. 7, 2004 -Taking the MiniDisc™ a big step forward, Sony today announced its new Hi-MD™ Walkman® digital music players.


With Hi-MD technology, users can record up to 45 hours of music at up to 100 times transfer speed on one disc, while still enjoying the extensive battery life, compact design and robustness for which MD players are recognized. Removable, re-recordable Hi-MD media provides music lovers with unlimited storage capacity to build an infinite library of their favorite songs.


"Net MD Walkman recorders have been the top-selling digital music players for the past 18 months and with Hi-MD players, we're giving music lovers more choices," said Todd Schrader, vice president of marketing for Sony Electronics' portable audio products. "Nothing's been left out. We've created the best overall portable music solution that addresses digital music fans' needs for high capacity storage and long battery life in a small and extremely durable device."


Hi-MD Walkman recorders incorporate the ATRAC3plus™ codec. The ATRAC3plus format is a high-quality audio compression technology that Sony developed to effectively reduce the size of audio files while preserving more of the sound quality.


With ATRAC3plus compression, more audio files can be burned to Hi-MD media or for that matter, to a standard MiniDisc. Music can be compressed to 132, 105, 66, 64 or 48 kbps (kilobits per second), so you can store more music or record at higher fidelity. By compressing at 48 kbps, users can enjoy 45 hours of music on one Hi-MD disc or 13 hours of music on one standard, 80-minute MiniDisc.


Record, Manage and Play Back Your Music


Hi-MD recorders connect to the PC via a USB cable for high-speed music transfers. They are compatible with the new Connect™ online music service. They also come bundled with SonicStage® version 2.0 software and the Simple Burner application, which makes it easy to import, manage and transfer music collections. With SonicStage software, playlists or track information created in the jukebox are automatically transferred to the Hi-MD recorder. Additionally, SonicStage 2.0 jukebox supports many Internet audio formats, including MP3, WMA, WAV files.


Hi-MD recorders make it convenient to locate favorite tracks and customize listening options. The devices feature Sony's Jog Dial™ navigation system, offering a single-hand way to scroll through playlists and songs. Albums, artists and song titles can be viewed on the Hi-MD player's three-line liquid crystal (LCD) display. Hi-MD recorders also include flexible editing tools so you can change the order of tracks or delete unwanted songs right on the device and without having to re-visit the PC.


Advanced Features, Added Functionality


The new Hi-MD players are packed with extra features that add convenience and utility to the digital music experience. For example, with the new upload function musicians or note-taking students can use the mic-in feature on several of the models to make a self-recording on the device and transfer the content back to the PC. When connected to the PC, Hi-MD recorders act as an external drive enabling users to store and transfer such data files as presentations, digital images and spreadsheets on the discs. Since the USB will feed power to the unit when connected to a PC, there is no need to worry about draining battery life when transferring to the Hi-MD device.


And speaking of battery life, Hi-MD Walkman players let music fans make the most of all that capacity by providing up to 30 hours of continuous playback using just one "AA" battery (MZ-NH600D and MZ-NHF800).


The Hi-MD digital music players are backwards compatible, so they will play back and record music on standard MiniDisc media. All of the players come supplied with a Hi-MD disc and will be available in April.


Top of the Line MZ-NH1 Model


Graceful and chic best describes the MZ-NH1 model. With its full magnesium body and ultra-compact shape, this new recorder sets a new standard in digital music design. The recorder has all of the Hi-MD convenience features, including the mic-in function, and comes with a three-line backlit LCD remote. The elegant USB cradle makes for an easy PC connection and convenient charging of the supplied rechargeable battery. The MZ-NH1 model will be available for about $400.


Entry Level MZ-NH600D Model


For about $200, the MZ-NH600D model is an ideal solution for digital music fans looking for a high-capacity portable player that won't break the bank. With enough battery life to support hours and hours of music, and the rugged endurance to survive a marathon, this Hi-MD recorder is ready to go anywhere.


MZ-NHF800 Model


Stepping up in the line, the MZ-NHF800 model has an AM/FM/TV/Weather Band tuner remote, making favorite radio and TV programs and on-the-fly editing just a click away. This player also has a line-in and mic-in to enable easy recording from multiple sources and is expected to sell for about $250.


MZ-NH900 Model


The MZ-NH900 model has an LCD tuner remote that makes managing music on the fly a breeze. It is supplied with a charging stand and rechargeable battery. The MZ-NH900 Hi-MD recorder will be available for about $300.


Hi-MD Media


Like standard MiniDiscs, Hi-MD discs are small, durable and re-recordable up to a million times without degradation in audio quality. Each 1GB disc can hold up to 45 hours of music compressed at 48 kilobits per second (kbps). In addition, Hi-MD media can store PC files, including Microsoft® Word® documents, PowerPoint® presentations and JPEG images. Hi-MD discs are expected to cost about $7 each when they become available in April.

[QUINNY]

Just an afterthought about something touched on by Forrrce.
When comparing CD with vinyl versions of records made 25 or 30 years ago.

1). Don't forget that the original record was cut from a brand new master tape. It's a little known fact among the general public that many things can happen to master tapes over the course of 25 years.
a). The high end response and overall level of the recording will diminish over the course of time, due to the lowering of magnetic flux levels of the magnetic particles.
b). If line up tones weren't included at the head of the recording, then it will be 'free season' as to what Eq the mastering engineer will apply.
c). Masters may deteriorate physically with the magnetic layer breaking up, layers sticking to each other because binder leaks (this leads to a time in a low heat oven) and other defects being manifest. It's no fun if you can't even transfer one tune without the playback heads getting clogged up with ferric oxide particles. I've been there and got the T shirt.
d). Print through (where the signal is transferred to adjacent layers causing pre and post echo effects) will be noticeably worse than when the master was new.
e). Both speed and azimuth variations will be noted between the original recorder and current day one. However, this would have also been true BITD, so maybe this has little overall effect when comparing.

2). All the above will greatly enhance the need for tweaks at the transfer and mastering stages. This would suggest that almost all reissues are going to sound 'messed around with', because there will be a need to 'undo' analogue errors, which may be both serious and manifold.

Therefore, I would suggest that it may be unfair to make direct comparisons between original vinyl and a CD re-issue, especially if the track hasn't been heard on CD before.The chances of the CD copy sounding different are more than likely and to be expected.

[QUINNY]

in error

[Sami M]

Surely the aging of the master tapes is one reason why old vinyl may sound better. But in discussion vinyl vs. cd I think one should make comparisons only if both are made from the same master at the same time and not decades after :roll:

This master tape ageing thing is very interesting to me. I mean, to let material detoriarate like that, so that enormous efforts are required to get the masters to the shape that they can be used again. Do they just think that, ok we had our money from this, and then just put the tapes in the storage.

Oh, I totally forgot th net md...

[Forrrce]

Luckily, I don't know of too many re-issues that have suffered badly due to tape deterioration. The odd minor drop-out or crumple is a small price to pay. I have been involved in projects myself where a tape's had to be baked and it's an all-or-nothing precision task. You get one chance to transfer after a bake (so I'm told - this true, Quinny?) so history is literally in some poor engineer's hands.

Whatever, though, we're always going to be at an engineer's mercy - the end product is essentially moulded by them.

One of my jazz buddies, who's a couple of years older than Q and a bit of a champaigne socialist, has a mid-to-highish range hi-fi set-up with separate power supplies and expensive cables, archaic valves, Conrad Johnson pre., speakers from the BBC (wartime-that's old) and he recently changed his trusty Garrard for an SME deck. He will not go near CD and is rather set in his ways. He just won't admit that CD can sound decent - ('poor bass, unrealistic'), yada-yada . But here is a man who will not allow himself to tailor sound to his own tastes - he's anti tone control. On many occasions I've had to listen to him complain about the lack of bass here, too bright there...
Considering the amount of tweaking that music has to go through before it reaches you, surely a tone stage on your amp. isn't going to make that much of a difference...unless you want it to.

That's the same head-in-the-sand mentality that can afflict the anti-CD lobby.

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

I wonder if Hi-MD will reveive the format's fortune.

Let's hope so. I had just about given up on MD with all the hard disk-based MP3 players coming out until this announcement. Sony has finally done the things that they should've done all along, namely:

- Greater capacity
- Allowed non-real time file uploading
- Allow uncompressed audio (so pros can actually use it now)
- Allow PC file storage

Sony had long held out on uploading and file storage; terrified that mass piracy would result if they did. Well, it happened anyway, and had nothing to do with MD, so...

[QUINNY]

Forrrce: I'm not aware of the once only application for baked tapes, but one thing's for sure. After that treatment I would imagine that treating it as if it were a once only deal would be wise.

Purists will always believe in the straightest, least component path. In theory (and in practice) this will result in a better quality of reproduction. In all honesty, I would like to have 16 tracks of that kind of front end to get my high end mics into the multitrack recorder, but I could never afford it. $5,500 ( X 8 ) for each pair of mics and a direct path stereo pre-amp is too rich for little ol' moi, although my Soundfield Mk V did cost me more than that. Just to show you what a contemptable old cus I am, I paid all that money and I don't like the sound of it at all. It's just like the vinyl vs. CD thing. The Soundfield just sounds too synthetic and too sterile to me, but most classic performers still cream their pants over it. I just keep quiet and nod at the right time.

Graham: I understood that Hi-MD still uses ATRAC. The mention of compression ratios is more to do with down streaming quality you wish to utilise in effect, isn't it?

[originalbigm]

Originalbigm: Your last post more or less vindicates what I've been saying.
All the rhetoric comes from vinyl freaks who have a REAL downer on CD. They are few in number but vociferous and bitter in their condemnations. I reiterate: Their tirades are purely subjective with no real scientific back up. They like the sound of vinyl. O.K I can live with that, but don't try and justify it by dissing CD, DVD, SACD etc with no proper back up. It may well be that their ears are slightly different to the majority of people. They may well 'hear' things differently. They may well have a more accute perception of mid-range frequencies for example. This could either be a fault with their hearing or may signify the rest of us have a problem. However, none of that is a justification to diss CD and the 'plebs' that like it. They prefer the sound of vinyl, that's all.

Quinny:I don't recall me saying anything negative about SACD or DVDA in fact I recall putting forth positive articles about it.I do however have problems with the contention that CD quality is all it's cracked up to be.I haven't dissed anybody that prefers to listen to CD but I simply question the assertion that it's such a superior format to vinyl simply because it's noise free and a more convenient format.I welcome technology if it truly delivers what it promises.

I'm truly amazed as to how often people dismiss others with views or reviews contrary to their way of thinking as if these people have no legitmacy in what they say that somehow they are not credible enough to offer an opinion about sound formats.Everyone is entitled to their opinion but again in any debate it's usually prudent to offer legitamcy to your views with reports or essays supporting those points of view and not simply dismissing or attacking them.
Can someone address the statements and articles from people who I have no reason to doubt are credible that CD quality is moving in the wrong direction and that these new formats are attempts to address this issue.
Why doesn't anyone address the fact that current CD sampling methods omit information from the analogue sound source so you are not getting a full representaion of the sound as it was originally recorded or how the dynamic range of the original recordings are compressed for the sake of trying to create a louder sounding disc which in turn doesn't allow the digital recording to show it's 90dB + dynamic range capability. If this is what is considered far better sound then by all means Enjoy!

Here are a few more articles written by peolpe who just happen to be taking up space on the web with nonsense.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2076336/#ContinueArticle
http://georgegraham.com/compress.html
http://www.proaudiorx.com/dynamicrange.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...rmatTrends.php
http://www.bodyandsoul-nyc.com/inter...ges/25918.html
http://www.mala.bc.ca/incline/turntables.html



I've never claimed that CD was an inferior product to vinyl.I acknowledge that it has capabilities that vinyl hasn't however the record companies and manufacturers have simply hyped the product and given us a far inferior product to what it's potential is.The consensus is that CD quality has diminished since it's inception.Why?I've just stated that we've been fed a lot of crap as to it's sound superiority and quality .There are numerous articles supporting this statement by people who are not vinyl lovers but who are perturbed and frustrated by the lack of record companies and manufacturers taking advantage of it's full capabilities.

Quote
"And if the digital music revolution has taught the industry anything at all, it is that sound quality runs a distant second to convenience as a consumer piority."

Fact is CD sales are on the decline,vinyl sales are seeing a resurgence as well as turntables.And the millions of people who download from the internet and burn their own cd's simply confirms my contention it's quantity and convenience over quality.

Quote
"and there's another whole point, which I hereby add to all of the above as Point Number Four. Sound on most people's computers and hand-held sound kits is likewise only so-so. Yet it turns out that so-so sound is okay sound. Hence the Big Internet Music Steal that the music companies rage against. That too is a hi-fi-isn't-that-important thing.

Now MD technology is interesting and worth looking into.

http://mdf1.tripod.com/

[originalbigm]

Totally with Quinny on this, vinyl is not capabable of delivering the information the cd is.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Graham: I understood that Hi-MD still uses ATRAC. The mention of compression ratios is more to do with down streaming quality you wish to utilise in effect, isn't it?

Yep, although the specs I read stated that it could indeed do 93 minutes of 16-44.1. If I remember correctly... Sony is pushing ATRAC3, which is (supposedly) better sound than MDLP2 and with a lower bit rate a la AAC/MP4.

[QUINNY]

Here are some interesting quotes I found on the web:

" A friend of mine is a mastering engineer, prepping stuff both for vinyl and CD. Now, *if* the studio has done its job right, he could in theory throw what they gave him straight onto CD, and you'd hear it pretty much as sounded back in the studio.

According to him (and he should know) you can't do that with vinyl: there are many things he gets from studios that if stuck straight on vinyl would cause the needle to jump straight out of the groove. Ergo, it has to be massaged to fit within the limits presented by the mechanical medium that vinyl is. This process may well lead to a sound that listeners prefer over the "raw" version, but ultimately isn't the sound that was arrived at in the studio."

This more or less tells it like it is. There are engineers who'll tell you that a CD never comes back sounding like the master they sent for replication and convince you that the differences are huge. Personally, I'm willing to accept that the process of making CDs isn't perfect and is open to some degradation of the master (Jeez, the sheer physics of CDs and the methods used to press them are mind blowing), but earth shatteringly different? My answer is "so what". The public has never had a copy that is a perfect mirror copy of the master tape. As long as it sounds good, what's the big deal? This is prima donnarism of the most ridiculous order. Nothing that humans make can ever be perfect.


" A friend was determined to see if a panel of highly-qualified judges could tell the difference between speaker cables. He took some 12 AWG zip cord and a number of other exotic speaker cables, you know, the ones which cost dozens or hundreds of dollars per foot.

He used a top-of-the-line amp, speakers and top-quality source material. All these choices were approved by his panel, as was the source material. He laid the cables out on the floor, in full view of the panel, and started by hooking up the 12 AWG zip cord. He had the panel listen for a few minutes to a number of selections, using 12 AWG zip as the "reference."

Then he had his assistants go behind each speaker, and behind the power amp, to change the cable. And, of course, when they got to the expensive cables, well, the soundstage, the detail, it was dramatic! They played the same selections through each of the cables. While some of the panel members preferred one cable over another, they all agreed that they left the 12 AWG in the dust.

My friend told me the names and qualifications of the panel members, some of whom had advanced degrees. Others had spent their lives working in the professional audio industry. These were the tops of their craft. At the end of the test, they thanked my friend for such an enlightening experience.

My friend said he didn’t have the heart (or guts) to tell them what really happened. Each time the assistants went behind the speakers and amplifier to change cables, they had done nothing. The entire time the panel was listening to the 12 AWG zip cord. "

What does this mean? It means that, like life, we hear what we want to hear. Our ears are interpretive. They are not something we can measure.

As they always say, "bullshit baffles brains"

Seriously though, I do feel that we can and do convince ourselves about such things. I do feel that the 'vinyl is warmer' stance is true, but that it's down to the medium's limitations and non linearity. Vinyl does indeed 'soften' the actual sound. Sit 3 feet or so away from a rock band (or even a jazz band at full tilt) and tell me the sound is warm. It's as harsh as hell!!

An interesting story. I once recorded an alto saxophonist at a live gig. To cut a long story short, when he heard the master he said "no, no, that's not my sound". To my ears it was just like his sound, then it struck me. He had always heard his own horn from behind the bell, never in front of it and certainly never 9 inches or less, in front of it. So was it his sound, or wasn't it. The parallel here is that CD, if you like, is the sound in front, vinyl is the sound from behind. Does that make any sense? It's down to subjective taste.

[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

Yep, although the specs I read stated that it could indeed do 93 minutes of 16-44.1. If I remember correctly... Sony is pushing ATRAC3, which is (supposedly) better sound than MDLP2 and with a lower bit rate a la AAC/MP4.

Graham: I've just had a good read at the www.minidisc.org site and PCM recording will be possible. Only 38 minutes on a 305 Mb Hi-MD reformatted disc and 94 minutes on a 1Gb true hi-MD disc. Otherwise, anything up to 38 hrs or even 45 hrs possible if quality isn't so much of an issue.

[Sami M]

Originalbim:

The difference between analog and digital signal is an old fact. But to state that vinyl losts no information and digital media does is crap. Then we should also speak about tape, the good old open-reel recorders and casssete recorders. Yes! They too are analog all the way and thus along with this logic, lose no information of the original signal. Yeah, right...

Analog media has it's falses on frequency response, noise, wawe and flutter, dynamic and what else. How could analog equipment by any means represent more flawless replica of the signal?

[paul]

THANKS FOR SHARING THOSE WEB POST QUINNY. THE SPEAKER WIRE STUFF IS ONE OF THOSE AREAS WHERE I BELIEVE A SUCKER AND HIS MONEY ARE EASILY PARTED. I TOO BELIEVE THE CABLE STUFF IS BULLSHIT BUT I KNOW A LOT OF AUDIOPHILES SWEAR THEY HEAR A DIFFERENCE. THIS, DESPITE THE SCIENCE AND DOUBLE BLIND TESTING THAT PROVE OTHERWISE. THE LATE PAUL KLIPSCH BELIEVED A LOT OF THIS WAS BULLSHIT AS WELL BUT IT'S HARD TO FIGHT PERCEPTIONS, REAL OR AS IN THIS CASE BOGUS. AS FOR ME, 12 GAUGE ZIP CORD IS ALL I NEED.
THE CD/VINYL ISSUE IS, I THINK SOMETHING MOST OF US CAN AGREE ON TECHNICALLY. VINYL, ESP. AT LOW FREQUENCIES WILL BE ATTENUATED IF LEVELS GET TOO HIGH FOR GENERAL PURPOSE CARTRIDGES TO TRACK. HOWEVER, FOR THE TINY AUDIOPHILE MARKET THIS IS LESS OF AN ISSUE WHERE WE USED TO SEE DIRECT TO DISC VINYL FOR EXAMPLE. I AM STILL PERPLEXED HOWEVER THAT THE STUDIOS COMPRESS THE DYNAMICS OF CD SO MUCH :o I KNOW THAT DIGITAL IS NOT AS FORGIVING AS ANALOG WHEN OVERLOADED BUT DIGITAL HAS A WIDER DYNAMIC RANGE.
I AGREE THAT AROUND THE MID BASS AREA, VINYL GENERALLY SOUNDS RICHER COMPARED TO CD. IN GENERAL I SUSPECT THIS MAY BE DUE IN PART TO THE EQUALIZATION THAT OCCURS AROUND 500 HZ FOR VINYL. IN THE CASE OF THE COMPARATIVELY "THINNER" SOUND FOR CD, I FEEL IT'S A MATTER OF NOT ENOUGH BITS. THE LAST 2 SENTENCES ARE JUST MY CONTENTIONS BASED ON FACTS. THE CONCLUSIONS I'VE DRAWN MAYBE BULLSHIT :lol: