LP's vs. 12" single versions

[Rab]

I am interested to hear other people's perception on the difference between LP's vs. 12" single versions of songs. Of course, we all know that usually, but not always the 12" version is longer, or perhaps not identical to the LP version. We also know that USUALLY....not always the 12" version has a "deeper imprint" resulting in better sound quality. Does anyone find that typically the LP version will sound just as good as the 12" version on even the most high fidelity systems? Is there an advantage for DJ "backqueing" with the 12" single? I have found that sometimes the record label makes the difference. For example, Debbie Jacobs, "Don't You Want My Love" from 1979 has the same version on 12" as the LP, (it's on MCA) I own both the 12" and the LP and both sound very impressive? Of course, one must also include, that the record industry probably makes more money off the 12" singles as well, marketing reasons. I'm curious about what others think....

[markydefad]

Hi Rab,



My first thought is that I really only notice the difference in LP pressings and 12inch versions when I try to mix from one to the other. I almost always have to lower the volume levels on the 12" cause the sound is so much more pronounced and overpowering compared to the previous cut. Mixing from LP to LP or 12" to 12" is usually much less techinically a challenge. Of course, it does vary from label to label.



Also, I've noticed most Imports have a stronger, more vibrant sound quality than domestic pressings--sometimes maybe "too much sound" (probably intended for the Club sound system?). I'm not a pro, but those are just my observations as a living room, tape-making amateur.



_________________

Make My Feet Wanna Dance!

Markydefad

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: markydefad on 2002-04-03 14:58 ]</font>

[Bernie]

Putting aside the longer version and remixes,, I prefer the 12" over the LP for sound quality reasons. Since the 12" provides more space for the grooves to breath it will generally have better bass response, better overall dynamics and is easier to cue.



Marky, if mixing between 12"ers and LPs it's best to set your levels for the 12 and then bring up the LP to match.

[The Lord of Flatbush]

On 2002-04-03 15:22, Bernie wrote:

Putting aside the longer version and remixes,, I prefer the 12" over the LP for sound quality reasons. Since the 12" provides more space for the grooves to breath it will generally have better bass response, better overall dynamics and is easier to cue.



Marky, if mixing between 12"ers and LPs it's best to set your levels for the 12 and then bring up the LP to match.

That's what pre-production is all about when it comes to matching levels of volume between 12" Singles and LP cuts.



Most LP's are low in volume compared to 12" Singles. For example, most of the Solar Records (Shalimar, Whispers, Carrie Lucas, Lakeside and Dynasty) 12" Singles were pressed louder than the LP versions.



Most imports from other countries whose LP's and 12" Singles are pressed louder than both LP's and 12" Singles recorded in the United States.

[NickNack]

I really prefer the 12" over the lp, when they're pressed correctly. Otherwise, it's a waste of vinyl. The sound quality, especially 'back in the day', was far superior to the lp. When the industry was cutting these babies at 45rpm you could knock a crowd to their knees with bass response. Plus, the majority of the 12" singles use to contain only one song on either side so they were much easier to work with. IMO, a 12" 'single' with about four remixes on a side is giving me lp quality sound. The grooves are just as tight as the album.

[jim]

I remember when I first heard about the CD,I was telling a friend that there was a new type of disc coming out that would have the fidelity of a 12" with a long playtime and a small disc. (I believe that was 81 or 82)



As for me I have been an ALL CD man for over a decade,and have been getting access to many 12" versions of good songs on CD where they belong

[paul]

Technically speaking, the 12" especially at 45 rpm should be superior in sound quality as compared to lps. Some audiophile recordings are intentionally done at 45 rpm for that reason. So yes I prefer 12" vinyls dynamics and frequency response generally over the lp version.

[BrunoRepublic]

Does anyone find that typically the LP version will sound just as good as the 12" version on even the most high fidelity systems?

Assuming the 12" is cut louder, there will be a better signal-to-noise ratio, but then you run into another problem. As the groove gets closer to the center of the disc, the actual velocity decreases, thus reducing the headroom for higher frequencies. So the mastering engineer has to either lower the treble response from 10kHz up, or you get major groove distortion (especially with a cheaper cartridges/stylus).



If you have both the LP and 12" of "Le Spank"by Le Pamplemousse, you can hear this quite easily. Put on the 12", and play the first few bars. Now move the needle to near the end of the record. Notice how it sounds *much* duller towards the end?

Now try the same thing with the LP. First, you'll notice that it plays back at about half the volume. But it sounds just as bright at the end of the track as it does at the beginning. Granted, it's the first track on the side, but my point remains...



BTW, this is the reason for the phenomenon experienced at a club where almost every new track that the DJ mixes in seems so much brighter than the previous one.

[12incher]

interesting topic: I wonder if this is more relative to the quality or reputation of the label than anything else? I know of heard some off the wall 12 inch singles that haven't been too good. Also, I hear 45rpm has better quality ?

[Forrrce]

Originally Posted by 12incher

interesting topic: I wonder if this is more relative to the quality or reputation of the label than anything else? I know of heard some off the wall 12 inch singles that haven't been too good. Also, I hear 45rpm has better quality ?

The 'perfect' 12" is cut at 45 rpm speed, single-sided and ideally doesn't play too near the label. Audiophile labels have implemented this approach for LPs, on occasion. A good example is Miles Davis's 'Kind Of Blue', which I have as a 4x12" (45) set, by Specialty records.

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by Forrrce

The 'perfect' 12" is cut at 45 rpm speed, single-sided and ideally doesn't play too near the label.

I understand the reasoning behind all that, except for the single-sided part... why would that make a difference? For tapes that's one thing, but vinyl...?

[Forrrce]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

I understand the reasoning behind all that, except for the single-sided part... why would that make a difference? For tapes that's one thing, but vinyl...?

This was put forward as a quote, though I've set myself up here. There are supposed to be drawbacks to double-sided vinyl, though we really are getting into the realms of esoterica. If it's really about sonic difference, I don't think it's audible to the human ear.

[Bernie]

Originally Posted by Forrrce

The 'perfect' 12" is cut at 45 rpm speed, single-sided and ideally doesn't play too near the label.

Wow, I feel like I'm back in the 70s discussing this. The reason for not pressing on both sides was that the imprint of grooves from one side would "theoretically" distort the grooves/sound on the other.

BTW: I will move this post to the Vinyl category a little later tonight.

[Forrrce]

Originally Posted by Bernie

Wow, I feel like I'm back in the 70s discussing this. The reason for not pressing on both sides was that the imprint of grooves from one side would "theoretically" distort the grooves/sound on the other.

Fantastic, Bernie.
I knew I'd heard of a 'con' but for the life of me, couldn't recall what it was; though any theory was going to sound at least slightly bonkers! :lol:

[MAN]

I noticed another thing, the more songs you got on vinyl side the dull sound you get , and the less songs you got in a side the good sound you get, and that's why mostly all the compilation vinyl in about 10 songs each side sound dull and low volume than the LP's that usually contains 4 or 5 or 6 songs or the 12" or even the 7" , and it seems that the much space between groove gives much better sound than the tight one, is that right, refer to your compilation vinyl collections and tell me if you notice this :o