LP's vs. 12" single versions

[K-Bee]

You're absolutely right about this MAN. I remember in the early 90s when CD's started to take over, but the record companies still tried to cram all the tracks into the LP's as well, resulting in LP's with 6-7 songs on each side.
Sadly the sound quality suffered a lot in the process.

[kaliffen]

Originally Posted by Forrrce

The 'perfect' 12" is cut at 45 rpm speed, single-sided and ideally doesn't play too near the label. Audiophile labels have implemented this approach for LPs, on occasion. A good example is Miles Davis's 'Kind Of Blue', which I have as a 4x12" (45) set, by Specialty records.

The perfect 12 being a 45 rpm record can only be in theory.
No european (where all 12" were 45 rpm) have the loudness of a Equal US 33 rpm copy. Furthermore the vinyl quality has always been much better on US records.
However there are a few US 45 rpms that comes to mind as good but not amazingly loud and clear.
Yaz(oo) Situation and the Megatone catalogue.

Ill prefer a thick heavy US copy any day at any speed for that matter.
US readers can only be greatfull for not being raised on German ALSDORF pressings with sucky sound and really BAD vinyl quality.

[Sami M]

Yes, the European pressings are worse than the US, I agree. The sound is also brighter and somehow thinner, and the vinyl is very often lighter than US.

I just heard a claim that the fact on which stage the vinyl was pressed affects it's sound quality, that is the last copies sound crab compared to the first ones :o Since it's almost impossible to know the pressing order of the copies, this sounds very dull. Any more info or experience on this? Did they sometimes kept the amounts pressed so low, that this would not occur?

[BrunoRepublic]

I'm surprised to hear anyone putting down German pressings. In my experience, they are among the very finest ever made. I prize my German copies of Brass Construction I, Don Ray's Garden Of Love, and my 12" of the Ritchie Family's Bad Reputation. Perhaps some small German labels were crummy, but all the ones I've heard are fantastic.

German pressings are often sought out by collectors for their superior sonics. In addition to decent mastering, the German labels often took the time to get the right tapes when nobody else could be bothered. For example, only Germany ever put out the true stereo mix of The Beatles' "Magical Mystery Tour" on vinyl, or the uncompressed stereo mix of "Please Please Me". These records go for pretty big bucks now.

I own several Berlin-school electronic LPs, and the vinyl is *vastly* superior to anything we had over here. UK pressings vary, with some labels (like Pye) piling on excessive compression, but others such as EMI, are fantastic. Compare the sonics of any UK PSB 12" with against the North American copies; the UK wins every time. Clearer and cleaner. The vinyl was sometimes thin, but it is much sturdier and less prone to warping. I can't tell you how many domestic records I've bought brand-new that were almost unplayably warped.

The lower velocity of 33 means that the treble must be reduced and/or there will be greater inner-groove distortion. A 45 RPM disc can be cut louder than a 33, simply because you need a faster speed to accommodate louder signals before distortion kicks in. I'd pick 45 RPM over 33 any day.

[Sami M]

I only know what I hear, and decades of comaprison with Germany, British, Holland and US made records suggests that sound is usually more pleasent on the US ones. I know it is kind of odd, becouse the european ones are usually on 45 rpm, which should mean better better sound quality. However, the dynamics and overall sound image usually sound better on the US pressings. It may well be that high tones are better on the german pressings, becouse to my ear they sound kind of thin. On the other hand I have never been keen to hights but bass :)

[efunk_adelic]

I believe in 90% of the cases I like the 12" at 45rpm over the 33 1/3 speed.... the solar 12" singles sound way better than the LP versions... maybe they did this on purpose so that you'd buy both.


my favorite sounding 12" at 45rpm

Hall & Oates - I Can't Go For That (UK)
Voyage - Souvenirs (US)
Foxy - Get Off (US)


there are many many others....

btw... those UK 12" from the early 80's are top shelf! I love the way they are cut... :D

[Forrrce]

Originally Posted by efunk_adelic

my favorite sounding 12" at 45rpm
Hall & Oates - I Can't Go For That (UK)
there are many many others....

btw... those UK 12" from the early 80's are top shelf! I love the way they are cut... :D

Quite surprised you think this sounds good - I don't have this anymore (I have an American one) but I bought it new at the time and thought it sounded truly awful - distorted and lacking in tops.

UK 12"s in those days were miles apart from their US counterparts, in terms of EQing. US 12"s (especially indies) usually had (sometimes much) less top and more mid-to-bottom.

Some titles that always come to mind when I think of the difference, are tracks I bought on UK first, then found the US ones later in second hand shops:

Strikers 'Body Music' (UK Epic)/(Prelude - very dull and flat)
Rod 'Just Keep On Walking'(Creole UK)/(Prelude - quite dull
in comparison)
Digital Underground 'Doowutchyalike' (Euro BCM)/(Tommy Boy - a completely different record; like AM radio in comparison to BCM's 'FM')

[QUINNY]

Just my two cents.
All things being equal, a 45 RPM record will nearly always sound better than a 33, especially on a sensible 6 minutes or less length. 45's will nearly always be slightly quieter because the grooves can't be cut so wide. Both speeds have their limitations and advantages, but I always thought UK pressings sounded sharper than U.S. ones and I reckon much of that was down to the speed.
Subjectively, if you're a bass freak you'll go for U.S. but nobody can deny that objectively UK/European vinyl sounded better overall.

[efunk_adelic]

I'm not sure which single you are talking about Forrrce... I assume the Hall & Oates.... I like the fact that the Bass was overwelmed.... and you could use the equalizer to adjust... I like having that option when playing it thru a mix... I wonder if that makes sense to you??? All I remember was when I first played that in the clubs... the U.S. version didn't get the response that I wanted.... When my 12" UK version came in from mail order, the attitude on the floor changed and I was able to play it over an 8 week period.

[originalbigm]

I've been reading this thread along with other similar threads as to the technical and audio attributes of disco music and all make valid points and arguments.However I tend to think we lose sight of the fact that most of this music was produced for the dancefloor without audiophile consideration.This music was played in different venues from small intimate clubs to large cavernous venues on powerful sound systems with all types of ambient noise to contend with.DJ's had to constantly eq their systems to deal with the issues of not enough hi-end or too much/too little bass.Record companies were more interested in selling the product which had to at best sound reasonable on the majority of home and car systems of the day.The common brands of the day were Pioneer,Marantz,Fischer,Sansui not exactly what I would consider audiophile components.Ceramic(OOOOOH!) cartridges were still very common and belt drive turntables without pitch,anti-skate or tonearm weight adjustments were the norm.Spending $100 bucks for a speaker system was considered splurging.Cerwin Vega was the standard of the day for bottom end.Ho-Hum!
I'd suggest to you that the majority of consumers in the seventies had budget systems that were incapable of highlighting the technical shortcomings of a record and that in a club where songs were being pumped out in excess of a 1000 watts and 110db the only thing that mattered was can I feel the music.I mean after an hour in a club your eardrums were fatigued to the point that you had difficulty
differentiating marginally bad sound from good.DJ's had it worse as their entire night consisted of balancing hearing in one ear of the headphone sound and the other ear listening to the actual system sound and trying to get a proper balance.I recall that when I observed EQ's in different clubs in the early days they all tended to have a common configuration.Boost the bottom end from 100-600hz.Flatten or depress the midrange 1000-6000hz and a gradual increasing of the high end 8000-12000hz.I call it the S curve.
With the advances in sound technology today we have become more aware of sound quality and are certainly more discerning as consumers.
I'm sure that audiophiles back in the day didn't have a whole lot of disco music in their collections to say the least.JMO

[Forrrce]

I didn't edit the quote properly, efunk - yes, the Hall & Oates.

I actually still have my UK 12" - I just remember this record sounding pretty poor at the time. It's a middy-lower type recording, anyway, with very little tip end - but that UK 12" always sounded very fatigued and distorted to these ears.

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by originalbigm

With the advances in sound technology today we have become more aware of sound quality and are certainly more discerning as consumers.

I would argue the opposite. Sales of stereo equipment are plunging as more and more people hear the bulk of their music through crappy PC speakers. Heaps of older albums are being "remastered" with "smiley" EQ and horrendous amounts of limiting, and the masses think it's an improvement because it sounds better over PC speakers and in the car. With today's mastering techniques -- as well as the move towards low bit-rate lossy digital formats -- the music sounds worse the better your system gets, instead of the other way around.

Take anything mastered by José Rodriguez*: He paid great attention to detail on these discs and each one is a work of art. I'm sure he knew that most people were listening with crappy consumer systems, but the rewards are there for those who invest in a decent setup. Most "audiophile" types may frown upon disco, but many disco records were produced to the highest standards (any Costandinos work, for example).

* with the exception of Tom Moulton's early productions, where he was ruthless with compression during mixdown.

[efunk_adelic]

Originally Posted by Forrrce

I didn't edit the quote properly, efunk - yes, the Hall & Oates.

I actually still have my UK 12" - I just remember this record sounding pretty poor at the time. It's a middy-lower type recording, anyway, with very little tip end - but that UK 12" always sounded very fatigued and distorted to these ears.

Forrrce, you are truely correct ... it is very middy w/lower recording. However, I was playing the U.S. domestic 12"... and it didn't have enough punch especially in the club I was playing at... 85% black/hispanic club. All of a sudden the U.K. version woke up the dance floor one night... :D

I was thrilled... another song to play for 2 months.

with that in mind.... what is your opinion to these U.K. 12" ?

Rick James - Dance Wit' Me
Bernard Wright - Just Chillin' Out

[Forrrce]

Originally Posted by efunk_adelic

with that in mind.... what is your opinion to these U.K. 12" ?

Rick James - Dance Wit' Me
Bernard Wright - Just Chillin' Out

I need to compare the Hall & Oates 12s - I truly reckon mine was just an errant pressing; and I've never had RCA down for bad 12-inchers.

I've never had a UK 12 of 'Dance Wit' Me' (I may have a US 4-track or something buried somewhere?? - Motown promos were usually ropey anyhow).

Re. 'Nard - you mean the 3-tracker? Never had a problem with it - just the edits and segues used to piss me off a little! :lol:
I sold that 12" at least 10 years ago - I never see it now, especially since Skee-Lo ripped off the a-side and Snoop Dogg, the b! :roll: :roll: :roll:

[originalbigm]

With today's mastering techniques -- as well as the move towards low bit-rate lossy digital formats -- the music sounds worse the better your system gets, instead of the other way around.

I do believe my contention was that because of inferior budget systems of the day the average consumer had difficulty discerning the technical shortcomings of records.The fact that sound recordings today are of lesser quality only compounds the matter.I simply suggested that disco records were not originally created as audio masterpieces and the fact that US pressings were better than German or UK was better than French or whatever we wish to argue this didn't matter to the average consumer or club goer.It was always compensated for to an acceptable degree.

Take anything mastered by José Rodriguez*: He paid great attention to detail on these discs and each one is a work of art. I'm sure he knew that most people were listening with crappy consumer systems, but the rewards are there for those who invest in a decent setup.

Granted but the majority of consumers aren't interested in the rewards from a technical aspect.They only want a song that appeals to their tastes,sounds half decent,has decent lyrics and is the flavour of the month.I doubt that many people actually sit down and listen intently or constructively to the technical side of music

Sales of stereo equipment are plunging as more and more people hear the bulk of their music through crappy PC speakers

Exactly my point people couldn't care less about sound quality thus they won't invest in decent audio equipment.They make do with what they have.I'd argue that inferior sound recording formats as found on CD's are not the reason for diminished audio equipment sales rather the trend to personal audio devices such as MP3 and Minidisc players etc.are the reason for declining sales in home stereo equipment.

Heaps of older albums are being "remastered" with "smiley" EQ and horrendous amounts of limiting, and the masses think it's an improvement because it sounds better over PC speakers and in the car.

A shame to say the least but I'm reminded of the saying "Perception is reality"

With all due respect Graham I'm on your side but people like you and me and others here who like to appreciate the finer points of music reproduction are the minority.I will always defer to your technical knowledge but at the same time I understand the masses of yesterday and where their heads or should I say ears were.Agreed technology maybe has made a bad situation worse to some degree and that maybe in this case new is not better.