Vinyl to MiniDisc (need tips) and which cart is best for an SL-1210MK2?

[Westwood]

Hey guys,
after years of hesitating and then buying the thing and another years of waiting to start doing it, I now want to start putting the new vinyl (old) I buy on a media other than cassette tapes, and I like minidiscs and have a portable one (gift) and just bought a HiFi component Minidisc recorder. My home is weird, and I just have no space to put vinyl on PC/CD so that's another reason to choose MD.
Now, my first question is about the recording level I should use. I remember for tapes (Chrome II and Metal IV) you should not go over I think 6-8 dB. For the MD deck there isn't a display with a scale like my cassette tape recorder, but there is a level that you should not go over that becomes red and flashes if you do. The level changer shows I recorded the last two LPs at 0.0 or -0.2 dB? Dunno, but I am very used to recording on tapes that I know what I could do, but with minidisc I am totally new, so I wonder if there is even someone on here who records to minidisc in the first place, and then if he/she's got some tips.

And another big question which arises is the distortion on some vinyls.
It's not last tracks distortion so I'm gonna keep it in this thread hoping the same helpful people on that great thread will be able to help me too.

I had NO idea the cartridge of a record player could have such an effect on the sound of vinyls played with it. So here's what I have:

A Technics SL-BD3 with a generic stylus and a Technics P30 cartridge (I think) that I have always used, and I got as a xmas gift from my brother a very seldom used Technics SL-1210MK2 turntable with a cartridge that I can read is Ortofon E/Ortofon Concorde (do you need more info, it's all I can see written). I hope that's the cartridge, I mean, I cannot see how to get the stylus out of there, and wonder also if once the stylus breaks or needs replacement I'm gonna have to change all the thing? Anyway, what is the best cartridge I should get to minimise the sound distortion?

As I mentioned, I never really encountered distortion on the last tracks of the vinyl, but mostly ever since I started to buy second hand vinyl I have sometimes had the problem that the sound is distorted (the high frequencies, classically the letter "s", that even on some records I had bought new myself) on the whole record. IF I encounter distortion that doesn't affect the whole record and cannot really be seen with the naked eye, it's on the very start of the record, where I guess there is most wear than others due to rubbing with the sleeve and inner sleeve etc?

The best example I have is a Shirley Bassey "Portrait" double album set from Germany (United Artists) that I borrowed from a friend of my mother's lol. There are 6 tracks on each side and each side runs for about 15-20 minutes, so very tight grooves and anyway, I know, not the best example as it's already with a foot in the grave once pressed.
There is some distortion in occasional sections of one side of one record, but most of all, one side of the record is totally noise-laden and the high frequencies are distorted. There is really no visible wear and no different than the other sides.

Is this all probably avoidable with a better cartridge? Ok I haven't even played anything on the MK2 yet, only on the other one.

The first time I encountered worn-out (I guess) records is when I bought a used Cream Of The Crop album by Diana Ross and The Supremes which was on a very light and plastic-y looking record (reissue I think).

Can rubbing of the records on inner sleeves etc result in the record sounding noisy? even if it's a normal record with 4 tracks and the grooves are well, average-spread? Or is that again something that can be solved with a better cart and stylus?
Someone mentioned playing a record after just washing it improves the quality of the playback?

Bottom line for now, spending an above-average amount of money on a cartridge for my MK2 what do you guys recommend? I guess Graham is the best to ask to? :)))))
Does the stylus matter too? Any advice? Also where to get them online.

AND then, how do you track etc the arm? This is new to me, I always used my BD3 turntable I had for like 15 years now and didn't have much of a problem, but I wanna do a definitive recording on minidisc for most vinyls I buy and want to get it right.

Thanks guys!

[BrunoRepublic]

I apologize for the threadcrap that I'm about to drop, but...

Speaking as someone who used MiniDiscs for a number of years, I can't understand why anyone would choose the format today. They were ideal in the mid-90s as a replacement for cassettes, before CDRs and cheap hard disks came along. Today there's absolutely no benefit aside from portable recording, and even that is rapidly being eliminated by portable hard disk recorders. The MD format is lossy, proprietary, copy-protected, and certainly doomed if not already dead. I would expect that in a few short years, it will be all but impossible to get media for it or repairs for the units. A few years back Sony finally came out with 1GB discs and added lossless recording, but it was too little too late. The format simply has no future now.

Computer-based recording is where it's at now. Computers (PC or Mac) can record at any number of sample rates and bit depths, which can later be converted to whatever format comes into vogue. You can adjust volume, EQ, make fades, separate tracks, etc., all within the computer. You can make lossless hi-res needle-drops for archiving, and then downsample and compress the files to MP3/AAC for iPod convenience. None of this is possible with MD. Hard disks now are absurdly cheap: you can get 500GB external drives for about $200, which will hold about 3500 regular MDs worth of material, or 500 of the later 1GB models. And that hard drive can easily be backed up to inexpensive DVD-Rs or another hard drive.

I'm sorry if I'm being a wet blanket, but I really don't think MD is a wise investment of time or money these days.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

"Now, my first question is about the recording level I should use. "
with MD (and all digital formats), you NEVER EVER want the recording levels to go above 0. It's not like analog, where the headroom depends on what kind of tape you're using. In the digital world, 0 is the absolute limit. Above that and you will have very nasty crackling and distortion, which is much nastier than the harmonic distortion that you get with analog. Some consumer equipment has built-in limiters to minimize digital clipping. Some does not.

"A Technics SL-BD3 with a generic stylus and a Technics P30 cartridge (I think) that I have always used, and I got as a xmas gift from my brother a very seldom used Technics SL-1210MK2 turntable with a cartridge that I can read is Ortofon E/Ortofon Concorde (do you need more info, it's all I can see written). I hope that's the cartridge, I mean, I cannot see how to get the stylus out of there, and wonder also if once the stylus breaks or needs replacement I'm gonna have to change all the thing? Anyway, what is the best cartridge I should get to minimise the sound distortion?"

When people say "cartridge", 99% of the time they mean the cartridge and the stylus, since usually they aren't interchangeable, although there are some exceptions (like certain Ortofon models).

I'm not familiar with the SL-BD3, but I suspect it may take a "p-mount" cartridge as many later Japanese consumer tables do. This is important to note as p-mount tonearms have a different connection than standard cartridges, and there aren't many p-mount cartridges being made today (and even fewer good ones). Now, P-mount wasn't a bad idea, for it made the tricky task of setting up a cartridge very simple. Unfortunately, it came along too late in the game, being around only for the last few years of when vinyl was the most widely-used format. So, most cartridges now are the old standard mount, which requires you to fiddle with tiny wires, and use a protractor to position it in the headshell to ensure that the stylus hits the groove at the correct angle. The one exception to this is, again, certain Ortofon cartridges aimed at DJs. Same concept as P-mount but a different implementation: it replaces the headshell on the Technics 1200 (which normally uses standard mount), so you just screw it on to the tonearm, set the tracking force and anti-skate, and you're done. The catch is that they can only work on 1200s.

The "Concorde" cartridges are aimed at DJs: they're rugged and durable, but they won't sound very good. I don't know this for sure, but I'm told that you can replace the stylus (not the whole cartridge) with one from Ortofon's OM-series, which are "listening" carts. In order from worst to best, they offer the OM5, 10, 20, 30, 40... but in my experience, don't bother with anything less than a 20.

"There are 6 tracks on each side and each side runs for about 15-20 minutes, so very tight grooves and anyway, I know, not the best example as it's already with a foot in the grave once pressed.
There is some distortion in occasional sections of one side of one record, but most of all, one side of the record is totally noise-laden and the high frequencies are distorted. There is really no visible wear and no different than the other sides."

15-20 minutes per side isn't too tight, especially if it's not bass-heavy music. Actually, you'll get lower tracking distortion on quieter records (but more surface noise, obviously). What often happens with used records is that if the previous owner had a turntable with a cheap nasty stylus, and played at a really high tracking force (like many typical consumer systems of yesteryear), this will gradually shred the grooves. The more they played it, the worse it will be.

"Can rubbing of the records on inner sleeves etc result in the record sounding noisy?"
Yes. I always replace paper sleeves with plastic ones.

"Someone mentioned playing a record after just washing it improves the quality of the playback?"
Only if the record was dirty to begin with! But yes, play a record all the way through once after cleaning it. That will help the stylus push out some of the remaining gunk.

"Bottom line for now, spending an above-average amount of money on a cartridge for my MK2 what do you guys recommend?"
In terms of sound quality for money, the current champion is the Audio Technica AT440MLa. It can be had for ~$100 USD from various online retailers (amazon.com, lpgear, probably a few others). However, I see that you're in Switzerland, and pricing for these things vary a lot by region (plus shipping and duty charges, if any). I'm told that Ortofon and Denon cartridges are a lot more affordable in Europe. Ortofon recently put out a series called the "2M" which are supposed to be quite good, but I haven't heard them myself. Ben Liebrand swears by the Denon DL-160. I'm using an Audio-Technica AT150MLX myself, which I got for about $270 USD, but I picked that up from a store called J & R when I was in NYC. Last time I checked, Bernie used an Audio-Technica OC-9 which sells for about the same as the 150MLX, but it's what they call a "moving coil" cartridge that requires a step-up transformer (you can't just plug it into a regular phono input).

Above and beyond this, you start to get into the stratosphere of audiophile circles, where people will spend thousands on their turntables/tonearms/cartridges/phono stages, and argue endlessly over minute aspects of sound quality, tossing around terms like "soundstage", "warmth", "openness", "slam" and so on. That's well past the point of "diminishing returns" for me though.

"... how do you track etc the arm? "

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. How much tracking force or anti-skate? Depends on the cartridge. I use a simple method for anti-skate, although not everyone agrees with it: I put on a blank, grooveless record (like some of those 1-sided Casablanca 12"s), put the tonearm on the middle, and adjust the anti-skate until it doesn't slide in either direction.

How to align the cartridge? That's trickier; you need what's called a protractor, which you put on the turntable and line the cartridge up with it at one end, then move to the other end and see if it's still in alignment and adjust if it's not, and then repeat...

[RetroRuss]

I use MiniDisc to record my radio shows - as it is a fairly convenient portable recorder - I do have an iPod Classic which has a recorder but the battery life is rubbish so I stick with the MD. You have 3 settings which effect the length of recording on the disc - each one other then the shortest will compress the sound signals. You then have to plug a 3.5mm jack into the headphone and then use a programme like AR Wizard or Audacity to record onto PC in real-time' to make MP3's or WAV's or AAC.

As for needles and carts - I like Ortofons - robust & good for DJing a slightly more bassy sound IMHO!!

As Graham says - MD is kind of 'old hat' now - if there was an MS based MP3 recorder with 40Gb & a keyboard the size of a $ or £ bill then that would be a desirable piece of kit!

[Westwood]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

I'm not familiar with the SL-BD3, but I suspect it may take a "p-mount" cartridge as many later Japanese consumer tables do. This is important to note as p-mount tonearms have a different connection than standard cartridges, and there aren't many p-mount cartridges being made today (and even fewer good ones). Now, P-mount wasn't a bad idea, for it made the tricky task of setting up a cartridge very simple. Unfortunately, it came along too late in the game, being around only for the last few years of when vinyl was the most widely-used format. So, most cartridges now are the old standard mount, which requires you to fiddle with tiny wires, and use a protractor to position it in the headshell to ensure that the stylus hits the groove at the correct angle. The one exception to this is, again, certain Ortofon cartridges aimed at DJs. Same concept as P-mount but a different implementation: it replaces the headshell on the Technics 1200 (which normally uses standard mount), so you just screw it on to the tonearm, set the tracking force and anti-skate, and you're done. The catch is that they can only work on 1200s.

The "Concorde" cartridges are aimed at DJs: they're rugged and durable, but they won't sound very good. I don't know this for sure, but I'm told that you can replace the stylus (not the whole cartridge) with one from Ortofon's OM-series, which are "listening" carts. In order from worst to best, they offer the OM5, 10, 20, 30, 40... but in my experience, don't bother with anything less than a 20.

Ok sorry but I didn't understand a lot of what you wrote here.
Are you referring to the SLBD3's mount or the 1200 series? I am not interested in the SLBD3, I'm not gonna change anything on that one, I want to improve the 1200. And I had read here about the DJ carts, I want the other type, the better sound, I'm not a DJ and handle things with care.

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

"Bottom line for now, spending an above-average amount of money on a cartridge for my MK2 what do you guys recommend?"
In terms of sound quality for money, the current champion is the Audio Technica AT440MLa. It can be had for ~$100 USD from various online retailers (amazon.com, lpgear, probably a few others). However, I see that you're in Switzerland, and pricing for these things vary a lot by region (plus shipping and duty charges, if any). I'm told that Ortofon and Denon cartridges are a lot more affordable in Europe. Ortofon recently put out a series called the "2M" which are supposed to be quite good, but I haven't heard them myself. Ben Liebrand swears by the Denon DL-160. I'm using an Audio-Technica AT150MLX myself, which I got for about $270 USD, but I picked that up from a store called J & R when I was in NYC. Last time I checked, Bernie used an Audio-Technica OC-9 which sells for about the same as the 150MLX, but it's what they call a "moving coil" cartridge that requires a step-up transformer (you can't just plug it into a regular phono input)..

Ok......ay, well, what's a step-up transformer and why are you mentioning a phono input when talking about the cartridge, doen't that get screwed on the arm? I think you're talking way to professionally here and leaving out human details.

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

Above and beyond this, you start to get into the stratosphere of audiophile circles, where people will spend thousands on their turntables/tonearms/cartridges/phono stages, and argue endlessly over minute aspects of sound quality, tossing around terms like "soundstage", "warmth", "openness", "slam" and so on. That's well past the point of "diminishing returns" for me though..

Ok I'm just interested in making a good investment so I can get the best out of my records keeping in mind I'm not gonna try to make home-made remastered recordings.

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

""... how do you track etc the arm? "

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. How much tracking force or anti-skate? Depends on the cartridge. I use a simple method for anti-skate, although not everyone agrees with it: I put on a blank, grooveless record (like some of those 1-sided Casablanca 12"s), put the tonearm on the middle, and adjust the anti-skate until it doesn't slide in either direction.

I just read about the tracking on the forum, I have no idea what problems arise when it's not tracked correctly. How do youeven track it? with the weight on the bottom of the arm?
I do have some Casablance one-sideds so I can try that.

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

How to align the cartridge? That's trickier; you need what's called a protractor, which you put on the turntable and line the cartridge up with it at one end, then move to the other end and see if it's still in alignment and adjust if it's not, and then repeat...

It get's tricky indeed, I thought the cartridge just gets slid/screwed in the arm?

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by Westwood

Ok sorry but I didn't understand a lot of what you wrote here.
Are you referring to the SLBD3's mount or the 1200 series? I am not interested in the SLBD3, I'm not gonna change anything on that one, I want to improve the 1200. And I had read here about the DJ carts, I want the other type, the better sound, I'm not a DJ and handle things with care.

Ah, okay, the 1200 uses standard mount cartridges. 99% of cartridges out there are standard mount.

Originally Posted by Westwood

Ok......ay, well, what's a step-up transformer and why are you mentioning a phono input when talking about the cartridge, doen't that get screwed on the arm? I think you're talking way to professionally here and leaving out human details.

Most moving coil cartridges have *very* low output and need much more amplification than regular carts. A step-up transformer gives the signal enough boost so that it can be put into a regular phono input.

Originally Posted by Westwood

I just read about the tracking on the forum, I have no idea what problems arise when it's not tracked correctly. How do youeven track it? with the weight on the bottom of the arm?
I do have some Casablance one-sideds so I can try that.

Too much tracking force will wear down the grooves and the stylus, too little and it won't track properly. Too much or too little anti-skate will increase the likelihood of the needle skipping and wearing down the grooves. Exactly what these settings should be depends on the cartridge.

Originally Posted by Westwood

It get's tricky indeed, I thought the cartridge just gets slid/screwed in the arm?

On a standard mount cartridge, you'll see two slots about 1/4" long that the screws go into. This may seem like a tiny space, but in geometry terms, it's a vast distance. If the stylus is at the wrong angle, you'll have a lot more problems with sibilance.

[Westwood]

:-( you are still talking about things I don't know.
What's a moving coil cart? Is the 1200 series standard mount?
How do I track the antiskate thing, what are the things to look out for, I am sure they won't have an instruction sheet in the cartridge box...?
Thanks

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by Westwood

:-( you are still talking about things I don't know.
What's a moving coil cart? Is the 1200 series standard mount?
How do I track the antiskate thing, what are the things to look out for, I am sure they won't have an instruction sheet in the cartridge box...?
Thanks

You don't need to concern yourself with moving coil carts; I only mentioned that because that's what Bernie uses.

As I said, the 1200 is standard mount. Ortofon makes a series called the Concorde which do away with the headshell altogether, but that's a rather unique product and really only for DJs.

Ortofon DJ Cartridges Concorde Series

I mention this only because if that is the kind that is currently on your 1200, you will need to get a headshell to use a standard mount cartridge.

Shure cartridges used to come with a protractor, although don't think any others do now. But you can download one (including one meant specifically for the 1200 here: Cartridge Alignment Protractors | Free Turntable, Tonearm & Cartridge Tools | Vinyl Engine

As I said before, anti-skate and tracking force depend on the cartridge. Generally, hi-fi carts track at about 1.5g, whereas DJ carts track much higher. You need to first install the cartridge, and adjust the counterweight so that it "floats", which tells you that you've got zero tracking weight. Then you move the marker to show zero... you have to do this because different kinds of cartridges weigh different amounts, so the tonearm has to be rebalanced if you change the cartridge.

Once you know where zero is for this particular cartridge, adjust it to whatever the cartridge instructions tell you (we'll assume it's about 1.5 g for the sake of this discussion).

[Westwood]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

As I said, the 1200 is standard mount. Ortofon makes a series called the Concorde which do away with the headshell altogether, but that's a rather unique product and really only for DJs.

Ortofon DJ Cartridges Concorde Series

I mention this only because if that is the kind that is currently on your 1200, you will need to get a headshell to use a standard mount cartridge.

Shure cartridges used to come with a protractor, although don't think any others do now. But you can download one (including one meant specifically for the 1200 here:

Thanks Graham for all the help and time you are giving me, but really I feel like killing myself lol, everytime you reply it's like another language for me.
The Ortofon Concorde is what I have on the 1200 right now. Seeing as you and others have said that type is not the best for sound, I want the other kind, the kind that sounds better.
Did you say this because it means I have no standard mount?
What's a headshell here?
I'm gonna read the protractor page and the tonearms stuff, but I'm sure that will generate even more questions. Why does it have to be so hard?
Graham fancy a trip to Switzerland lol

[Westwood]

I have taken a look at this Audio Tecnica cart and well, I don't think it goes on my tonearm. The Ortofon Concorde that is on it now has its beginning part (kinda like a cilinder) that slides INTO the arm, with a little thingy on it that slides as well into a slit in the arm, the cart being secured then with a screwable arm "band" thingy (lol). The Audio Tecnica cart seems to only have the 4 connectors sticking out of the back, there seems to be no cilinder-shaped part with the connectors sticking out that would go into the arm.

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by Westwood

Did you say this because it means I have no standard mount?
What's a headshell here?

There's a nice picture of a Technics 1200 headshell here:
DJ Equipment - Technics HEADSHELL - Technics Headshell, technics 1200, dj pro turntable - DJ ACCESSORIES - Platinum Records Lights and Sound Online DJ Store. The 1200 comes with one, but I don't know if you still have it, since there's no need for it with the Concorde cartridges.

One very nice thing about the 1200 is that, unlike most other tables, you can very easily get new parts for it. I picked up a spare headshell at a local DJ shop.

Originally Posted by Westwood

Why does it have to be so hard?

Mainly because vinyl has been around for a long time, and has gone way above and beyond what it was originally designed to do (like stereo, for example). Innovations that simplified the cartridge alignment process simply came along too late in the game. There's a lot of talk right now about how vinyl sounds so much better than CDs, but what much of this hype neglects to mention is that it usually doesn't. You need a decent table, a good cartridge that is properly set up, and decent pressings. Mass-produced North American copies of records from the 70s and 80s played on a plastic USB turntable with a $5 cartridge aren't going to challenge the CD for audio supremacy. :)