Is there a middle ground?

[nrgbeat]

It seems like everytime there is a controversial discussion on this board it's always a strong liberal opinion vs a strong conservative opinion.

Are there any middle of the road people here? Is it possible to have the best of both worlds?

I'm just asking.

[DiscoMan]

Yes, U.S. Jeffersonian liberalism is proof - debate and compromise. Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt and John Fitzgerald Kennedy were the best manifestation of this American political tradition.

What has happened over the past 10 years or so is that the communists have fled the Soviet Union and found refuge in the Green Party, the European Union, the European and American Press and the U.S. Democrat Party. Massachusetts is a good example, in the U.S., of European liberalism and the welfare state. It's an economic and political basket case and the ONLY state in the union losing residents to the rest of the country. A trend that grows each year.

And then we have the atheists and whores that are France...

[Bernie]

Yes, I think there are some like me who take the middle ground on many issues. I've never quite understood extreme viewpoints. It's like you either have a guy who is an alcoholic or someone who won't drink at all. Neither is right.

Let's take the Pledge of Allegiance controversy:
I feel that every school child should recite it to show some pride, respect and allegiance to their country however, the words "under god" have absolutely no place it in. You want to hear about god, then go to church on Sunday.

Neither side tells the general public that the original pledge never had the words "under god" in it. It wasn't until the 1950s that some politicians took it upon themselves to alter the pledge by adding those two words. Instead of everyone simply saying let's return the pledge to its original words, we get liberals saying that we now can't recite it at all and then we get religious zealots and conservatives saying that anyone who objects is unpatriotic and some kind of heathen. It's not all or nothing. The solution is simple: keep the pledge, but return it to its former verses without the reference to god.

I'm an atheist and I love Christmas time and have no problem with a store or person using the word Christmas as long as it is not a government entity.

All people regardless of sexual orientation, race... should not be discriminated against and allowed to marry and receive any benefits that marriage brings.

I'm all for a woman's right to choose and see nothing wrong with stem cell research. I believe Terry Schivo's husband had the right to have his wife's feeding tube removed. I don't however feel comfortable about a teenage girl being able to have an abortion without her parents knowing.

Well, that's it for now. I'm done rambling. :D

[paul]

At this point in time, I would say no. As a liberal, I and many who share my political leanings feel we must be more proactive.
For too long those who are conservative have been allowed to define us and have framed the debate. This has also pushed the nation politically further right. We now have a one party state with little checks and balances.
The recent Schiavo case exemplifies this. The repugs in congress didn't like court decisions in the local courts so they along with bush passed an unconstitutional measure for the dead woman. They cannot write laws for a single individual. Among other things it violates the 14th amendment. Sadly, we have punk Dems who have capitulated. Grassroots people like myself, politicians like Howard Dean, and organizations like MoveOn are saying enough. Hopefully we can put some backbone in Dems and once again have legitimate 2 or more party debate. This will restore some semblance of checks and balances. That is the best way to ensure power does not go unchecked.

[DiscoMan]

Paul move to Massachusetts. The commonwealth is a one party Democrat utopia, you'll love it here.

[paul]

I used to live in Beantown. Loved some things about it, ie universities. Too cold though. While I was there I did support repubs like Weld even though I am liberal. If Dems have a problem, it's generally a over willingness to spend. I have a bigger problem though with repugs. They have this daddy mentality. What I am saying is their politics and they're constituents approach is in terms as their leader being the head of the household metaphorically. Thus everyone must fall in line with what that leader says and and does.

[DiscoMan]

And the Democrats/Libs don't pull the same ****!? Me thinks you're breathing too much of that Southern California smog.

Massachusetts is such a successfull liberal welfare state that residents are bailing out in significant numbers to those states that aren't.

[paul]

And the Democrats/Libs don't pull the same ****!?
.

No, they/we don't. To borrow a quote from Will Rogers, "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'ma Democrat."

[DiscoMan]

Yeah sure. You're drinking the Kool-Aid too.

[paul]

Yeah sure. You're drinking the Kool-Aid too.

:D I need that iced Kool-Aid here in Diego.
So umm, can you expound a little?

[markydefad]

I'm wondering if "DISCOMAN" has been replaced by a pod person? :o :o

It seems as though I've been reading his incredibly RAUNCHY & RIBALD tales of SEX, DRUGS, & DISCO for quite a while...now all of a sudden, "DISCOMAN" is a conservative prude??? :roll:

WUT UP WIT DAT?????

[BrunoRepublic]

Is it possible to have the best of both worlds?

No, because the dominant forces have made it such that anything that deviates from the ruling policy is "extremist".

Such people would consider me a "leftist" for my belief in socialized medice, which is laughable, as I have no love for unions or state-run economies. It's noteworthy that such people who are so quick to jump on socialized medicine are usually the same ones who have never visited a country which actually has it.

Such people have made the term "feminist" equate with man-hating, separatist, lesbian "feminazis", when the term actually just means someone who believes in equality for women. So, one cannot believe in female equality without being an extremist.

Such people have made the term "liberal" equal with someone who supports Stalinism, infanticide, and crushing of the human spirit. In fact, the term "liberal" is based on the word "liberty" and liberals support more freedoms, not less. So, to support personal freedom is to now be an extremist hell bent on destroying The Family.

Such people scream and protest that any non-Republican government is all about Big Government and Taking Control Of People's Lives, when in fact, the Republicans have created a far bigger government which has plunged the US economy deep into the red. With their various wars and theocratically-inspired morality laws, they have done far more to control the lives of individuals than any government in the past 40 years.

You can't have a non-extreme opinion when the very words you would use are taken away from you. We really have reached the point were war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.

[DiscoMan]

I am not a prude. I'm not even a good Catholic. I'm half French - even had relatives from France! I don't go to church. I own firearms and I hunt and fish. I used to be a Democrat. In matters of personnal choice I'm libertarian. In matters of public finance and national defense I'm consrvative.

I was deeply involved in the anti-war movement of the late '60s and early '70s and George McGovern's campaign of '72 (even had a front row seat next to Roger Mudd during one of McGovern's campaign speeches) and I've seen what the Democrats have done to Massachusetts over the past 30 years. And I've come to despise them.

And I am goddamned sick and tired of the libs/dems characterizing people who disagree with them as right wing gun nut, anti-abortion, racist, homophobe, animal abusing, war-mongering, fundamentalist regious nut case wacko psychotics.

The anti-Catholicism exhibited on this board disgusted me. Like I said it's the last acceptable prejudice. And you anti-Catholic atheists don't like the fact that I called you on it.

[DiscoMan]

Such people scream and protest that any non-Republican government is all about Big Government and Taking Control Of People's Lives, when in fact, the Republicans have created a far bigger government which has plunged the US economy deep into the red. With their various wars and theocratically-inspired morality laws, they have done far more to control the lives of individuals than any government in the past 40 years.

Easy, cheap and smug for a Canadian to say when you've been living under our protection for the last 60 years. Just like the Europeans. You have the freedom to divert tax money from your own national defense to social programs because the U.S. has protected Canada and Western Europe since WWII.

The Canadian military is a joke. Just like the liberal government in Ottawa.

[nrgbeat]

Wow, looks like I've opened up a hornet's nest with this topic.

So who's going to win American Idol??

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mixmachine]

Easy, cheap and smug for a Canadian to say when you've been living under our protection for the last 60 years. Just like the Europeans. You have the freedom to divert tax money from your own national defense to social programs because the U.S. has protected Canada and Western Europe since WWII.

The Canadian military is a joke. Just like the liberal government in Ottawa.

Not only that , they have but a fraction of the US population to worry about (30 million) and still the country is tittering on the verge of bankruptcy under the weight of catastrophic irresponsible social programs the liberal government can't pay for, the so call Universal Health system is in disarray, with loads of Canadians crossing the border for care or looking for a life saving operation, and Doctor are quitting their practice in huge numbers cause they can make a better living in another line of work, many are moving south, and talk about government intrusion and excessive control, the Canadian Government prohibits it's citizens from buying private insurance while at the same time refusing to send you abroad for un-available treatment at home, even if your life depends on it, in effect they force the population to suffer through a mediocre Health system while Tax and Spend Socialist Liberals mis-manage the excessive backbreaking taxes they collect from the working class, but what else is new.

In the UK the picture is even worse, the wait list is life threatening and if you need a Dentist, well, for get about it… ...

Keep these disasters to your self! Our system is not working well at the moment but it is infinitely better than anything any crummy socialist has to offer….

[paul]

Is it possible to have the best of both worlds?

No, because the dominant forces have made it such that anything that deviates from the ruling policy is "extremist".

Such people would consider me a "leftist" for my belief in socialized medice, which is laughable, as I have no love for unions or state-run economies. It's noteworthy that such people who are so quick to jump on socialized medicine are usually the same ones who have never visited a country which actually has it.

Such people have made the term "feminist" equate with man-hating, separatist, lesbian "feminazis", when the term actually just means someone who believes in equality for women. So, one cannot believe in female equality without being an extremist.

Such people have made the term "liberal" equal with someone who supports Stalinism, infanticide, and crushing of the human spirit. In fact, the term "liberal" is based on the word "liberty" and liberals support more freedoms, not less. So, to support personal freedom is to now be an extremist hell bent on destroying The Family.

Such people scream and protest that any non-Republican government is all about Big Government and Taking Control Of People's Lives, when in fact, the Republicans have created a far bigger government which has plunged the US economy deep into the red. With their various wars and theocratically-inspired morality laws, they have done far more to control the lives of individuals than any government in the past 40 years.

You can't have a non-extreme opinion when the very words you would use are taken away from you. We really have reached the point were war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.

Exactly Graham! You've hit on so many points I agree with on.
Also be sure to note that not all of us to the south of you are xenophobes.
In a way I don't totally blame the yahoos in this country. The corporate media has spoon fed them an intellectually malnourished diet wrapped up in the sort of patriotism that swept through Nazi Germany. The irony here is with the access to information all over the world, they either don't use it to exercise critical thinking or there minds have completely bought the shrub regime rhetoric. Half of 'em will tell you Iraqis were the 9/11 hijackers.
They bash the economic situation in Canada and Europe. They complete ignore the record deficits we are running here under republicans. Our money honcho, Alan Greenspan said this a few weeks ago and they ignore it. Funny thing is, while the bash the commies it's the commie Chinese that's helping keep our economy afloat by buying our bonds. The Saudis are doing the same as well.
As for bashing the Canadian military, I seem to remember they patrolled the skies of the western hemisphere while we were supposed to be getting Osama...yeah that guy. The wingnuts here don't even talk about him anymore because their boy in DC didn't get him despite the cowboy rhetoric. Last time I saw him he looked tanned and more rested.
Of course there is the Orwellian double speak that spews from the White House that the lobotomized here accept. The funniest is Shrub's clear skies initiatives which relaxed restrictions on smoke stacks. Like Al Franken says, when they said clear skies they mean clear the skies of birds.

[DISCODISK]

[quote="Mixmachine"

In the UK the picture is even worse, the wait list is life threatening and if you need a Dentist, well, for get about it… ...

[/quote]

but the difference is here healthcare is FREE ,and yes the system is under strain it has to be with medical advances from the time this system was started,and one day it will have to change,but for now if you arrive in an ambulance nobody asks if you have insurance they just treat you.

[markydefad]

DD,

See next post.

[markydefad]

DD,

We here in the U.S. prefer to spend billions fighting wars in foreign countries---preparing the Middle East for DEMOCRACY. :roll: They loves us over there ....strewing flowers and blowing air kisses at our tanks!!! :P

**** health care for the citizens of the U.S. If ya lose your job and you can't afford to pay the outrageous premiums--**** YOU YOU LOSER!!!!!! :P :P :P

We're paving the way for democracy in the Middle East. And, incidentally, lining the pockets of Halliburton and all the cronies and asslickers of the Repugs. Someone "misplaced" 9 BILLION DOLLARS over there... no big whoop. Just a clerical error, M'KAY? R U buyin' that???? :oops:

Once the smoke & mirror 24 hour a day non-stop coverage double feature of Save Terry Shiavo/The Pope IS STILL DEAD is finally over (PLEEEEEEEASSSSE!!!)....I think we're gonna have fun watching the arrogance of the Repugs bite them in their big fat crooked asses. Tom DELAY is goin' down...just like Newt did.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DiscoMan]

Paul you really are pullin' your pud too much.

Cretien is a pinhead, Paul Martin only slightly less so.

And all of you pussies who want the government to do this or do that to take care of you don't have the balls, intelligence or ambition to take care of yourselves and THAT is the difference between us. The Chinese are going to eat you alive!

We should have killed the first pilgrim who got off the Mayflower, just look at the sad cases they have bequeathed us. :evil:

[paul]

Paul you really are pullin' your pud too much.

Cretien is a pinhead, Paul Martin only slightly less so.

And all of you pussies who want the government to do this or do that to take care of you don't have the balls, intelligence or ambition to take care of yourselves and THAT is the difference between us. The Chinese are going to eat you alive!

We should have killed the first pilgrim who got off the Mayflower, just look at the sad cases they have bequeathed us. :evil:

I quite enjoy pulling my pud actually. The nuns only said it would affect my vision which it has, not my ability to reason.
Umm, I'd be careful about mockin' other nations heads of state. Remember we have a guy in the White House who can barely string 2 sentences together, and he choked on a pretzel.
Hmm, based on what you've said the libertarian approach is what you prefer. At one point I used to lean towards that kind of social darwinism. In my view however humanity would not approach the sort civilization where there is some attempt at equity. Would you tell the disabled to fend for themselves for example?
As for the pilgrims, who knows where we would have been.

[Mixmachine]

[quote=DISCODISK][quote="Mixmachine"

In the UK the picture is even worse, the wait list is life threatening and if you need a Dentist, well, for get about it… ...

[/quote]

but the difference is here healthcare is FREE ,and yes the system is under strain it has to be with medical advances from the time this system was started,and one day it will have to change,but for now if you arrive in an ambulance nobody asks if you have insurance they just treat you.

Discodisk, my friend, I hope you are able to find a system that works that the USA can emulate, I would be the first one to support it, but you are not there yet, are you? and I'm sorry to tell you this, but there is nothing free in this world regardless of what economic or political system you live under, someone, someplace has to pay for the goods and services with either excessive taxes or hard free work, in many cases like Cuba both, I rather keep my money off the hands of government bureaucrat and make my own way.

[nrgbeat]

Everyone else has had their bitch session so I will have mine.
This will be less about politics than the other responses.

My biggest issue with liberals is this political correctness crap.

While I don't condone racial slurs, when I grew up, referring to someone as an American Indian or an Oriental wasn't offensive or a racial slur. Nowadays it is. Why? because some liberal said so or did we all become overly sensitive?

Some people want to be called black, some people are offended by black and want to be called African American. Some people want to be called Hispanic, some are offended by the term Hispanic and prefer Latino. Give me a break!!

What's next Protestant American, Orthodox Jewish American, Black Gay Jehovah Witness American?

Regarding the use of God in the Pledge of Allegiance and on money. Why is this suddenly an issue when we have been doing this for years?

Soon stores won't be able to decorate for Christmas because that's offensive to non-Christians.

[Bernie]

nrg,
Definitely agree on this PC bull. Everyone is now looking for an excuse to go off on someone and fain being offended.

As a person of Puerto Rican heritage I do resent the new shoved-down-everyone's throat term Latino. I am a Hispanic NOT Latino. Latino is a term that has its roots in the lower echelons of Hispanic society and I want no part of it.

Going back to the Pledge of Allegiance, you are missing the often ignored point that the word god was never originally in it. It was added in recent history by politicians. Same goes for money. Find an older bill and you will see that it does NOT say "In god we trust." It's almost as though it was added to provoke and throw it in everyone's face. Then we have the so called liberals who instead of doing the sensible thing and ask to simply keep the pledge, but remove the two words now ask that we not recite the pledge at all in school. That's just alienating all those like me who are Democrats. You aren't going to win any friends by being on either extreme.