The first 12" single --- a new twist

[remicks]

---- Something new has happened on markydefad's Billboard compilation chart this week ( 11-08-75 ). Up until now the bulk of the records have been listed as 45's with the remainder being album cuts. "Headline News" by Carol Douglas charted a few weeks as a 45, then dropped off. This week it returns to the chart at # 25 with a new description never before used here. It is referred to as "a special disco version " and sure enough in Bernie's vault there it is. http://www.discomusic.com/records-more/3748_0_2_0_C/. -------- I think it'd be great to be able to attribute the first charted 12" single to Carol Douglas ---- a semi forgotten disco powerhouse of the early days. ------------------........................... It'll be interesting to follow markydefad's charts from here on out and watch this transition to 12 inchers take place and see how quickly the 12" format takes hold. :D

[markydefad]

I'm impressed you're paying such close attention, remicks!!! :D

It's a tough call. Apparently, by the end of 1975, several other 12" promos have been released including the Calhoon record..."(Do You Wanna) Dance, Dance, Dance"...but they are DJ Promos only --not available to the public.

I've added the "45" to the listings thus far, checking my Joel Whitburn R&B & Disco books to see what format they list the record under. The Billboard charts only indicate the label & if it's a LP cut (it's "implied" that it's a "45", if they don't state "LP")...and then sometimes they are inconsistent with that. But as Moulton adds "long disco version" ("Hooked For Life") or "Special disco version" ("The Magic Of The Blue") or "disco mix" ("Undecided Love") or in the case of Carol Douglas "a special disco version"...I'm including that information.

The Carol Douglas story is in one of the more recent Moulton columns...says that Midland printed the wrong version of the record

9/27/75

"Midland International will be re-releasing "Headline News" by Carol Douglas. The mix to come was the one originally scheduled, but an oversight saw the wrong one pressed."



BUT....these early 12"-ers are not available to the general public...except as 45's at this point.

At the end of 1975, I'm gonna stop using the "45" term, cause
it's hard to tell what format they're in...Moulton's columns give info as to which labels are trying the 12" format. I think I've typed some of those...or maybe that's coming up. I know there is a column about this...Atlantic & Columbia were getting into this, as I recall.

[Karlos]

I've got a copy of this Carol 12 inch and I think mine has a date stamp on the label. Will look it up and let the forum know!

[remicks]

markydefad -----I didn't realize that the 45 / LP designations did not originate from the old Billboard charts but are the result of extra research on your part . :D I think the Carol Douglas song is noteworthy for another reason. It's reentry implies renewed play and support thanks to its being reissued as a 12" single. I bet this didn't go unnoticed by competing labels . I suspect that many of these first 12" songs like Blue Magic's , were well received by DJs as much for their improved sound quality and the novelty of the 12" format as for the actual songs on them . I look forward to a Moulton commentary about them. -- Anyway , yes i am studying over your lists and am finding lots of forgotten info there. Thanks ---------- remicks --------- there were other trade magazines back then ..... Cashbox, RecordWorld (?) ..did they have disco charts too? ....

[remicks]

a quick search found this year end chart for 1976 -- the hit singles -- for Cashbox Magazine http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/randypn.../1976YESP.html ----would like to review their disco charts , if any existed.

[QUINNY]

markydefad ----- I think the Carol Douglas song is noteworthy for another reason. It's reentry implies renewed play and support thanks to its being reissued as a 12" single. I bet this didn't go unnoticed by competing labels . I suspect that many of these first 12" songs like Blue Magic's , were well received by DJs as much for their improved sound quality and the novelty of the 12" format as for the actual songs on them.

You're absolutely right that the first 12" releases were played by many a DJ as much for their 'novelty value' as anything else. There was a very short time frame when many of us were suckered, but it wasn't long before the honeymoon was over and it was business as usual when deciding which records should be played. One of the first 12" commercial releases in the UK was Boney M with Daddy Cool, which was no longer than the regular 7" pressing. The run out groove was bigger than the actual playing area. When that piece of crap charted straight away on the back of being on 12", most of us jocks just knew that the charts were being manipulated and 12" records were gonna be a potential problem. I expressed my cynicism to James Hamilton at Record Mirror (the most influential reviewer of Disco records and one of the very few UK publications, possibly the only weekly one, with a disco chart) and he published my thoughts. He was less cynical it has to be said, but I beleive I was actually very sharp, for once in my life and was prooved to be right.

[markydefad]

markydefad -----I didn't realize that the 45 / LP designations did not originate from the old Billboard charts but are the result of extra research on your part .

Billboard designates "LP" in the charts; I've added the "45"...it's implied that if it's not an "LP cut" it's a 45.

I think back then ..... Cashbox, RecordWorld (?) ..did they have disco charts too? ....

Yep, they did. Well, at least Record World did, compiled by Vince Aletti who also wrote a column. (shootyourshot told me he's accessed these). :D I list the Record World #1 at the beginning of the Disco charts. (It's in the Joel Whitburn book, at this point in time.) Don't have the charts....yet.

[Giovanni]

HEADLINE NEWS by Carol Douglas is tentatively the first 12" released by the Midland label (then RCA distributed).
Its code number is MD-DJ 100, the record is a one-sided promo and the year on it is 1975.
http://www.discomusic.com/records-more/3748_0_2_0_C/

The first promo 12"s from the majors (Scepter, RCA-Midland, Private Stock, Atlantic, 20th Century)were released shortly before the birth of the first record pool, that is in the spring of '75.

[remicks]

Wish there was some way to get ahold of those Record Mirror disco charts , Quinny. Would be great to review those. But please tell me , they weren't as bloody awful as those UK pop charts were, were they ? .........( now that's casting aspersions!)

[QUINNY]

Wish there was some way to get ahold of those Record Mirror disco charts , Quinny. Would be great to review those. But please tell me , they weren't as bloody awful as those UK pop charts were, were they ? .........( now that's casting aspersions!)

I don't know how anyone could ever say that our pop charts during the disco era were bloody awful. Although I can't say for sure, I'm of the feeling that the UK pop charts had far more disco hits than the US and some of them fairly left field to boot!

A comparison between the US and UK Disco charts would see a definite difference in the overall types of music that were appreciated. In many cases, our charts would be more upfront than the US ones, probably because we didn't get every single US release and therefore had less chaff to sort through in the first place. You'd see more 'pop' in the UK disco charts but also much more Funk, Jazz Funk and the like. We definitely trod a different path to a significant extent.

[DISCODISK]

You're absolutely right that the first 12" releases were played by many a DJ as much for their 'novelty value' as anything else. There was a very short time frame when many of us were suckered, but it wasn't long before the honeymoon was over and it was business as usual when deciding which records should be played. One of the first 12" commercial releases in the UK was Boney M with Daddy Cool, which was no longer than the regular 7" pressing. The run out groove was bigger than the actual playing area. When that piece of crap charted straight away on the back of being on 12", most of us jocks just knew that the charts were being manipulated and 12" records were gonna be a potential problem. I expressed my cynicism to James Hamilton at Record Mirror (the most influential reviewer of Disco records and one of the very few UK publications, possibly the only weekly one, with a disco chart) and he published my thoughts. He was less cynical it has to be said, but I beleive I was actually very sharp, for once in my life and was prooved to be right.

QUINNY i think its safe to say daddy cool would have charted anyway if your theory was correct how come the undisputed truth didnt chart [only in the 40's]as for u.k 12 inch singles being a novelty 1977 was only around the corner when they started pressing them commercially, maybee they were a novelty for people like you who didnt buy imports but like you said initially too many were single length releases and for me they could sticker them with all the .49 pence and .99 pence stickers they liked i didnt want them preferring to spend £3 something on the real deal,lots of u.k companies only did a ten thousand run some even 1.500 when they were gone they were gone,that was hardly in those days gonna push them into the top 10 though it created interest.
the ones that manipulated the charts were the ones that compliled them, in these times MANY recoeds were selling by the bucket load in the north i can think of one title that did 175,000 in the north in the first week of release and it was refused a pop chart entry because it hadnt sold many in the south,so the b.b.c said its not going in, there must be something wrong,there were many cases like that, i worked in a record shop in birmingham and its sister shop in manchester on a saturday and the sheer volume of some tracks we moved did not reflect in the charts in any way.
quinny im not having a go but again ill say what you write about england in these times makes us look like the dinasour age, at this time mag wise also weekly was black echoes and blues and soul and also monthly black music,all contained disco charts, blues and soul also ran a gay disco chart[dont ask us who submitted the returns for the gay chart with the severe shortage of gay clubs we had in england :lol: ]
if you look back on these old mags they were so 'current' im sure nowhere in the world had great mags like these,echoes and blues and soul still around today [echoes at times probibly by the skin of its teeth and probibly saved by its loyalty to the northern soul scene]

[QUINNY]

DD: I think you prove my point.

A great record like Undisputed Truth only just charted (even with a 12" release) but a more commercial track like Boney M charted big time, even though it was 100 times inferior. Without the 12" I personally don't think either Undisputed Truth or Boney M would have done half as well as they did.

Yes, 12" records had been around for quite a while by then, but these were two of the first commercially available UK 12". Generally, 12" were still viewed as an incredibly new innovation. The first time (in late '76/very early '77, was it really that late?) that the record buying average Joe could be manipulated by such marketing ploys. The very fact that WEA (and other record labels) bothered to release a 7" version on 12" could only mean two things. (a) they had absolutely no idea what Disco was all about and (b) with special 49p, 79p, 99p or whatever as the selling price, they were trying to produce somewhat artificial interest by going for the 'look how much you can buy for the same money (or quite often less money) than the 7" costs. As you said, special prices didn't work for very long as an enticement to DJs if at all, but for average punters it may have done.

As for Blues & Soul, Black Echoes etc yes they did have disco charts bit did they extend to a top 75 or 100? I can't remember.
When did the Gay chart begin and what music was charting? Was it very different to rest of UK disco chart? BTW it would have possibly only taken half a dozen Gay clubs to compile a Gay disco chart and make it valid if that's all there were.

I have a Disco magazine from February '79 that has an article which says 'look out for Gay music as the next big thing after last year's Jazz Funk trip' referring to it as the next 'underground music.' So not much evidence of Gay clubs being anything but few and far between. Didn't really happen until about '83 though, did it?

The really big debates in the issue were 'Does The talking Have To Stop' about mixing vs. non mixing and one about DJ's pay. Apparently £20.00 a night was considered piss poor money and less than any self respecting DJ should accept. This at the time when the average pay in the UK was probably £50 a week.

The same magazine extols the virtues of the UK Disco charts against those of the US ones, saying that if anything ours were far more upfront and dynamic to some extent. Down to sheer physical size of the USA and the glut of product inevitably leading to a problem getting records accepted as a whole and therefore taking much longer to chart. Makes sense I guess. So, I don't think we were dinosaurs at all, but by the same token, I never shared any obvious necessity to be incredibly upfront, as I always viewed that as being as much a fashion statement as a musical one and music was my only reason for being a DJ. Plus it lead to the rather elitist, snobbish, nay scowling attitude that the hipsters could adopt(not to offend anyone, but stating something rather obvious if we're honest). I don't mind anyone being soo upfront if it floats their boat, but I always have objected to guys looking down their noses at mere mortals who didn't share their absolute need or obsession with the latest hip 7", 12" or album. As if having the very hippest records was ever THAT important a life statement, once puberty had been dealt with. IMO It's a rather vulgar, vacuous pursuit unless you're in the rather privileged position of getting them for free as demos, as would the DJ who played them be trying to be truly hip by merely giving them a spin? Answers please on a post card.....

As for the manipulation by the compilers of the charts...yes we all knew it was going on. Didn't they have something like 200 shop returns from around the whole country? What was that 175K Northern Soul seller that we were all saved from? :lol:

[remicks]

Quinny , Discodisk --- found this one :

UK TOP TEN SEPT. 17 , 1977 Music Week

1) Way Down --- Elvis Presley
2) MAGIC FLY --- SPACE
3) Float On --- The Floaters
4) Oxygene --- J M Jarre
5) DOWN DEEP INSIDE --- DONNA SUMMER
6) Angelo --- Brotherhood Of Man
7) NIGHTS ON BROADWAY --- CANDI STATON
8) Silver Lady --- David Soul
9) That's What Friends Are For --- Denise Williams
10) Nobody Does it Better --- Carly Simon

(also @ # 26 ... "I FEEL LOVE " DONNA SUMMER )

......................................any chart with Donna Summer ( DDI not a hit in the U.S. ... if even released??) and Candi Staton ( released as U.S. single ?).... isn't all bad! ... of these 10 songs only one --- Carly Simon's was a U.S. top ten single ..&.. maybe the Floaters........ Music Week ? A good resource? ......