What's the deal with SAW?

[Eurodancemix]

Within the last few weeks I've seen several negative references concerning Stock-Aitken-Waterman, and I'm curious to know why they seem to be disliked so much. I, myself, happen to like them so I don't understand why they're disliked.

I'll agree that by 1990 ALL of their productions sounded the same, but for the most part, I thought they were pleasant. They certainly weren't the only producers to ever crank out similar-sounding tunes by the bucketfull:

Ian Levine
Bobby Orlando
Simon Soussan
Farina & Crivillente (aka The Factory Team)
Dave Rodgers

Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument, I'm just curious.

[QUINNY]

It's easy to knock hyper successful people.

Pure statistics dictate that if SAW produced X number of records, then Y must have been crap. Whether or not Y is in the majority is open to subjective taste.

Yes, many of their records were 'pleasant' some were very good professional workouts, but a whole lot were repetitive dross too. A factory is never going to produce anything that can touch the work of a true artisan, in terms of any core human qualities, even though its articles may have a more shiny, more professional finish.

[buckaroo]

Within the last few weeks I've seen several negative references concerning Stock-Aitken-Waterman, and I'm curious to know why they seem to be disliked so much. I, myself, happen to like them so I don't understand why they're disliked.

I'll agree that by 1990 ALL of their productions sounded the same, but for the most part, I thought they were pleasant. They certainly weren't the only producers to ever crank out similar-sounding tunes by the bucketfull:

Ian Levine
Bobby Orlando
Simon Soussan
Farina & Crivillente (aka The Factory Team)
Dave Rodgers

Anyway, I'm not looking for an argument, I'm just curious.

You can add Teddy Riley, Timbaland, and quite a few other modern 'producers' to your list, who are total 'S' IMHO.
SAW did a great song called "The Heaven I need" with the Three Degrees in the mid 1980s, but unfortunately, because they were so successful every wannabe pop star wanted to be produced by them. So then Joe Public got saturated by their sound. Anyway in the end, they fell out with each other.

[Salsoul1975]

I am a fan of SAW's musical output, particularly in the '80s with artists like Bananarama and Rick Astley. Some people tend to be quite anal in their dislike for certain songs/artists/producers here. That's their opinion but it doesn't mean their opinion is the right one.

[Videoskooter]

MINE IS!!! No, I'm joking. SAW wrote some good songs but the production was the problem IMHO. Too mechanical, too electronic and like some here already said: always the same rhythm. The only one I do like is "Roadblock"

[NickNack]

MINE IS!!! No, I'm joking. SAW wrote some good songs but the production was the problem IMHO. Too mechanical, too electronic and like some here already said: always the same rhythm. The only one I do like is "Roadblock"

I've always liked SAW. Never saw any point in responding to all the negatives on the board. The first song I heard that I don't like by them --- doesn't sound like them ---ROADBLOCK.

Sorry Video. :)

[eddie]

I thought "Never gonna give you up" but Rick Astley was extremely good. However diminishing returns accumulated for both Astley and his production team.
Same is true with Keith Sweat and Teddy Riley. There's some hits and even classics but year after year disappointment sets in as creativity wanes. LSG was not to the power of its component parts. Levert, Sweat, and Gill were at their peak before combining for two albums with terrible tinny instrumentation and babble for lyrics.
I was also a fanatic of Babyface but The Day I've listen to once and Face to Face made me throw up. Honestly, I can't believe this is the same guy who did Two occasions with the Deele.

[Sami M]

I've always liked SAW stuff too, up till the end of the 80's. It is careless music that makes me happy. It did and does bother me though, that their 12" versions were so clearly of the same formula. Formula that today is so widespread. I wonder were they the first to use it to grat extent? Some of you maybe can tell more? :roll:

While listening to SAW I experience same kind of happy feelings when listening to 60's Motown. :P

[buckaroo]

...SAW wrote some good songs but the production was the problem IMHO. Too mechanical, too electronic and like some here already said: always the same rhythm. The only one I do like is "Roadblock"

You could say similar things about Motown, which Pete Waterman admired and tried to emulate, as some of the Temptations songs sounded similar in order to cash in on their previous hits. "Roadblock" made fools of a lot of people here back in the late '80s, when there was a massive "rare groove" scene going strong. Many of the so called serious record collectors were going out and spending big money on old forgotten soul/disco records because radio and club DJs were hyping them up. There was a buzz going around about a lost classic funk tune supposedly made by Fred Wesley and co. called "Road Block". Just about everyone fell for it, unless they were savvy about black music, and the song raced up the national chart. Later on the truth came out that it was in fact another SAW production, released on a white label so it looked like a much sought-after boot-leg. It had been a deliberate hoax instigated by Waterman - who admitted it - in order to embarrass his detractors and critics.

I thought "Never gonna give you up" but Rick Astley was extremely good. However diminishing returns accumulated for both Astley and his production team.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
But, it sounded too similar to Colonel Abrahms "Trapped", which came out a year or two before it. Most people at my school kept calling it a copy-cat-rip-off. Astley went through a little mid 20s crisis, as he was basically a studio tea boy before the song, and didn't want to play ball with SAW any longer by releasing more pop hits.

I'm happy to praise and put down, because you can't expect a producer to be great all the time. The first album that SAW produced for Princess was brilliant. It was in tune with the time it was released, and she quite deservedly had a handful of hits from it. :lol:

[K-Bee]

I agree..SAW did great stuff with Princess. "I'll Keep On Loving You" in particular. They did similar stuff with O'chi Brown too.

And then there was the unlikely SAW/Edwin Starr collaboration.
Anyone remember "Whatever Makes Our Love Grow"?

[Bona boy]

the unlikely SAW/Edwin Starr collaboration.
Anyone remember "Whatever Makes Our Love Grow"?

YES I do k-bee! I've mentioned how much I love this track previously here (& nobody ever replied :cry: ) along with other early SAW stuff like Phil Fearon's 'Nothin But A House Party' & Morgan McVey's 'Looking Good Diving' (an early incarnation of Neneh Cherry's 'Buffalo Stance') along with the afore-mentioned O'Chi Brown & Three Degrees tracks. When they first emerged their sound was so fresh & exciting to these ears but by the time of the late 80s & Kylie & Jason type stuff they suddenly sounded crap compared to such stuff as Black Box & Inner City! :(

[K-Bee]

Well I suppose the main change for SAW came when they hit the pop charts with Kylie's "Locomotion". As far As I know that was the first 100% pure pop (or should I say "pain" :lol: ) single they produced.
After that it was all about the money, and after 1987, not much was left of the early SAW style.

[buckaroo]

Didn't "I Should Be So Lucky" precede that?
Also, Hazel Dean was their sort of Kylie prototype: "Who's Leaving Who."/"Searching"/"Whatever I Do" etc.

[KayJayEm54]

Yes 'Roadblock' was an anthem and so too was the lesser received SAW hit 'SS Paparazzi' where they took a swipe at the press - wasn't a big hit and only scraped into the UK Top 75, but it was clever - and you can't help but think of Mr Waterman as anything other than a right clever chappie!!!!

The 3 Degrees 'Heaven I Need' was a classic that ought to have been Top 5, but alas SAW market saturation watered down sales potential and there was only so many SAW releases that the public could buy each week!!!

[Salsoul1975]

We can't forget Donna Summer's involvement with SAW, with her Top 10 comeback hit "This Time I Know It's For Real" in 1989.

Rick Astley had some great songs in his heyday; I love "Never Gonna Give You Up"-still do. Then he put out that dismal tune "Cry For Help" in 1991 and then he was history.

It never dawned on me until recently that Babyface was one-half of The Deele. "Two Occasions" was a great song. He had a few good solo songs along with way ("It's No Crime", "Whip Appeal") but when he started working in the late-90's with Olivia Newton-John and Phil Collins, all I could think was "sell-out"....for what; Collins doing a ghastly remake of Cyndi Lauper's ghastly "True Colors"? Yeech.

[Ian_W359]

One early SAW outfit I used to enjoy was 'Mel & Kim' who started off with 2 great singles 'Showing Out' & 'Respectable'

But after that, SAW would work with just about anyone.... I mean - Cliff Richard?!

Ian

[buckaroo]

Yeah...

Who could forget Sonia :P And The Reynolds Girls?
Ultimate Kaos, Bananarama ...and Joyce Symms??????? Uh? Why did she entangle herself with them?

Did SAW have anything to do with the outragiously bad London Boys? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[KayJayEm54]

The only involvement with the London Boys was when Pete Waterman and Michaela Strachan plugged them to death on their Saturday TV show 'The Hitman and Her'. Requiem was plugged and plugged and plugged to death - it was OK first time round but even I got tired of it and have resigned the 12" vinyl to the loft!

[buckaroo]

...Saturday TV show 'The Hitman and Her'. Requiem was plugged and plugged and plugged to death - it was OK first time round but even I got tired of it and have resigned the 12" vinyl to the loft!

Yes!!! Remember the black guy in the blonde wig?
"Be'ave Michaela!"

Top class viewing after a night at the club.

[Phoster]

Within the last few weeks I've seen several negative references concerning Stock-Aitken-Waterman, and I'm curious to know why they seem to be disliked so much. I, myself, happen to like them so I don't understand why they're disliked.

I guess back in the days (and even today) they' ve been critisized a lot because they mixed up "underground" and club oriented music like hi-nrg, later chicago house and acid house with pop-music. Some people may think they stole their ideas from other musicians who never got the succes like SAW did then...
some say it's betrayal to use club-sounds to make pop-hits, because the "underground" is suddenly "overground" :lol:

But that's not true, mike stock was a really talented songwriter, it was better than a lot of pop-music is today.

I really recommend the book "the hit factory" by mike stock, anyone interested in SAW, should read this! unbelievable what those guys have done...

[Energyguy]

Some of the early SAW tracks are pure gems . I especially love the work thay did early on with Divine, Hazell Dean, Princess and the greatly underrated OChi Brown. I agree that as the yaers developed much of the stuff they released tended to sound very much the same. You have to hand it too them - They found a winning formula and it worked !! -Pete Waterman has admitted he was greatly influenced by UK hi-nrg producer Ian Levine and you can see a connection...Many od the tracks that people originally slated seem to be re-surfacing and music fans are now quite nostalgic about them...

[remicks]

*****

Q: "What does Pete feel about the producers today who try and copy the PWL formula?"

A: "You know, many people said that what I did as part of Stock Aitken Waterman was easy; however if it was so easy how come nobody has yet managed to re-create our success? We were very disciplined; all three of us had a total respect, love and understanding of over 40 years of songwriting...we didn't just love one particular style or try to write in one particular genre. The only way you'll get a new Stock Aitken Waterman song today is to go to Stock and Aitken, or myself, and get us to write it (laugh)!"

from :

http://www.pwl-empire.com/qa_pete.html

*****

[buckaroo]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Prefab Sprouter]

Some SAW stuff was IMHO rubbish but some of it, especially the work done with Donna summer is excellent.

[Energyguy]

Some SAW stuff was IMHO rubbish but some of it, especially the work done with Donna summer is excellent.

It tended to go from being "pants" to pure classic !