A difficult choice: Diana Ross or Florence Ballard

[Marcio**]

In 1964 Berry Gordy had to make a difficult choice: Diana Ross or Florence Ballard as lead vocal of the Supremes. Carolynn Gill of the Velvelettes says: "It was Berry's choice to put Diana as lead. I think Diana's voice appealed to Berry because it was young, crisp commercial sound; maybe Flo's voice was a little to strong for that time. I don't think Berry chose Diana because he particularly liked her more than the other girls. They were after all high school kids to him"



detnews.com

www.history-of-rock.com/supremes.htm

[DoctorDisco]

To paraphrase a Supreme's song.....Flo...She don't know.

[markydefad]

To paraphrase a Supreme's song.....Flo...She don't know.

:lol: :lol: :lol: My fave line from a Supremes song EVER!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is it just me or does Miss Ross looks strangely like Little Richard in that photo????!!! :oops:

[judydoggie]

Sure, Ms. Ross's public troubles are now getting to the point where they may soon eclipse Liza Minelli's.

Let's set it all aside and listen to the voice. There's an obscure hit from a vinyl album I've long lost but that I was delighted to find on their "Diana Ross and the Supremes - The Ultimate Collection." The song is No Matter What Sign You Are. Beside the song being a danceable classic (structure-wise) Ms. Ross displays her vocal pyrotechnics in a way I don't recall ever having heard her on any other cut.

Now, some may call it out-and-out screaming. But IMHO, it's done straight-on accurate (pitch wise) and makes the song so much more exciting.

Florence Birdsong did a great job and performed well. Diana Ross is far from my favorite singer -- in fact, I believe her best, most singular (from a vocal standpoint) work was done before the disco era; or in the R&B genre. Birdsong was a fine singer but no Diana Ross.

- Paul (a.k.a. judydoggie)

[Mario]

Hello Guys... I've always read with great interest the Diana vs. Flo arguement. From what I've gathered, when the Supremes were first formed, there was no lead singer. All three ladies, including Mary Wilson, took turns singing leads on various cover versions of early 60's records. Many music historians claim that Florence had the most "soul" in her voice and was the strongest of the three ladies vocally. You can hear Florence Ballard on lead in the Supremes hit: Buttered Popcorn... And, wow, she really did have a set of pipes! However, Barry Gordy decided to "package" Diana as the upfront lead because of the three ladies, Diana sounded the most "white." Barry was no fool as the early 60's was full of a lot of racial tensions...Barry selecting Diana to sing lead was a political as well as successful move on Barry's part; it was Barry's orchestrated way of further introducing black music to white audiences...And it worked! P. S. Mary Wilson could/can carry a tune or two quite well...Mary demonstrates her vocal abilities best as she leads on a cover version of Martha Reeves and the Vandella's "Come and Get These Memories." Take Care....Mario 8)

[judydoggie]

How sad, Mario. You're right. The times were right for Diana Ross -- the girl with the least 'soul' in her voice of all three. Today, the tables would be turned. How ironic.

Those days, Gordy wanted someone who sounded white. These days, little suburban rich white kids are dressing like (and listening to) gangsta-rappers of color. DISCLAIMER: "Gangsta-Rap" is not my bag, but I'm not pro or con any of it; let whatever will be will be.

- Paul a.k.a. Judydoggie

[Bona boy]

I thought it was simply that Berry picked La Ross because he was poking her at the time. :D

[judydoggie]

Oh, my dear! MUST we get into such detestable subjects as the pleasures of the flesh herein?! I thought that this was a forum about pristine and noble artistic pursuits -- such as music!

Are you intimating that Ms. Ross's career was advanced because she gave up manifold and delightful sexual favours to Mr. Gordy?! My goodness -- some writers of books on the entertainment business have called this phenomenon the "casting couch?"

I just simply refuse to believe that any such concept exists in any of the performing arts. I'm a struggling singer. I have yet to have a recording contract executed. And many people who've heard me say I'm pretty good. Yet there's another young man who's voice resembles the mating call of certain lesser mammals. My agent tells me it has to do with his "big ten inch." It was my belief that ten-inch records went out with 78-rpm recordings... is there something I don't know. I'd love to hear any advice group members can offer about this situation.

Sincerely yours,

Judydoggie

[DoctorDisco]

Dear Miss Judydoggie,

I believe the big "ten inch" record you refer is an old song that has been covered by many artists.

Surely it doesn't have some hidden meaning.

Doctor Disco

[Marcio**]

Berry & Ross
Just Friends :)

[KayJayEm54]

I've heard you cannot beat a 12" (anyone care to disagree?????) It is even better than the 10" as you get a far longer vibe but don't go for the stuffed crust as it damages the stylus!!

We are talking pizzas here aren't we???

[Bona boy]

Really, hasn't anyone heard that it isn't the size that matters, it's what you do with it.

[trish]

I thought it was simply that Berry picked La Ross because he was poking her at the time. :D

That was definitely part of it, but he wanted someone who could cross over to the pop charts. He wanted Diana to be on the same level as Barbra Streisand. Flo's voice was to black. He wanted Flo to go along with the change and not cause trouble. She spoke up for herself, caused tension, started drinking and put on some weight so he got rid of her.

I think maybe had they handled it differently it could have been resolved without Flo having to leave the group.

Diana's oldest daughter is Berry's child.

[eddie]

I don't think the Supremes were produced right. I think they should have changed up lead singers within the song like Kendricks and Ruffin on "You're my everything." They weren't even my favorite female Motown group and I favor their 70's output over their 60's tracks with Miss Ross. Martha and the Vandellas had a more soulful sound.

[trish]

I don't think the Supremes were produced right. I think they should have changed up lead singers within the song like Kendricks and Ruffin on "You're my everything." They weren't even my favorite female Motown group and I favor their 70's output over their 60's tracks with Miss Ross. Martha and the Vandellas had a more soulful sound.

You are absolutely right. I never understood why Berry was so adamant about Diana being the only lead. I too thought Martha and the Vandellas had a more soulful sound, but that is the sound Berry did not want the Supremes to have. That IMHO is why Florence was put in the position of singing background.

[markydefad]

Oh puh-leeeze................MISS ROSS had STAR QUALITY!!! SHE WAS COMMERCIAL & GLAMOROUS & SEXY & COOED SWEET 'OOOHS' AND THE PUBLIC ATE IT UP!!! :icon_biggrin::icon_biggrin::icon_biggrin:

Mary & Flo were backup singers at best. YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE FACTS!!! How many hit singles did Flo or Mary have on their own??? That would be ZERO-ZIP-ZILCH- NADA -NONE.....

[remicks]

*****

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:


OH MARKY......

FIVE Number Ones in a row right off the bat
12 Number Ones total
Six more TOP 10s
Number Three Recording Act of the entire sixties decade ( behind only Elvis and The Beatles)
All time Most #1 Records behind only (see above)


.......................... don't prove nothin! !!! :icon_eek: :icon_lol: :icon_eek:


*****

[markydefad]

If I understand your point remicks....:icon_question::icon_question:

I said how many hit singles did Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson have as SOLO RECORDING ARTISTS--NOT AS "Supremes" SINGING "OOOOHS" behind Miss Ross's Lead vocal???

Is That Your Point?

[remicks]

??

Marky you made your point most endearingly clear ....that's what my :icon_lol:s were about.


It's my point that wasn't well made it seems, which was to further address the question of Diana or Florence and why it really isn't even questionable .....

Berry Gordy made lots of mistakes ....and some of them even concern The Supremes.... but putting Diana Ross up front wasn't one of them.

If destiny is a true concept .... Diana Ross is evidence of it ......


*****

[deltablues2]

There's no point debating who had or did not have solo hits. Mary & Florence were not promoted the way that Diana was, therefore you cannot compare their potential sales. If Motown had not put Diana outfront because of her looks and commercial voice then we might never have heard of her or any of the Supremes.

If you're only looking for charisma then Diana is your likely winner. But if you're at all concerned about talent then Flo was the superior singer - by far. Hits have little to do with talent.

[trish]

If I understand your point remicks....:icon_question::icon_question:

I said how many hit singles did Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson have as SOLO RECORDING ARTISTS--NOT AS "Supremes" SINGING "OOOOHS" behind Miss Ross's Lead vocal???

Is That Your Point?

They fell by the wayside by that time. Florence began drinking and never picked up her career again. Not only that she didn't have the backing behind her. It was not easy during the 60's or 70's for black singers to make it on their own. As a matter of fact it was almost unheard of. Detroit had Motown, Philly had the Sound of Philly to handle their own sound.
There were very few black artist during that time who even got the recognition they deserved without someone like a Berry Gordy behind them. Had he not pushed Diana the way he did, and invested the kind of time and money that he did she would have gone nowhere fast as well.

Diana's stage presence was good. Her gestures, pouty mouth, playful eyes. Her clothes were fantastic. It worked with certain people. She crossed over and that is what got her to the top. Berry put the money out there to ensure she would do so. That was Berry's plan for her from the beginning. It wasn't all about her. It was about lining his pockets as well. After all, we're still talking about a business. She is not and never has been a grand singer. Florence just happen to be one of the ones stepped on in order for Diana to get to the top. Mary kept her mouth shut like a good little girl. Her true feelings didn't come out until they tried to put together a tour for Diana Ross and the Supremes. Mary absolutely refused to go out on the road with her unless she was paid the same salary. The tour never happened.

[normvork]

You can hear Florence Ballard on lead in the Supremes hit: Buttered Popcorn... And, wow, she really did have a set of pipes! )

I have been collecting Supremes records since 1972 (dating back to 1964) and have not heard of this song. Where do you find it? Is there any other recording on which to base all the worshipful praise of Flo?

[normvork]

I don't think the Supremes were produced right. I think they should have changed up lead singers within the song like Kendricks and Ruffin on "You're my everything."

Ever since the Andrews Sisters it has been a hallmark of successful groups to use the same lead singer to develop an exact sound which will become the "brand." People who hear a new song on the radio will immediately recognize who the artist is and go out looking at the local record store for "that new Supremes record I heard today on the radio but I don't remember the name of the song."
At least it worked that way back then.
Making those connections of vocals to artist made all the difference in finding the record you wanted to buy. I still remember people coming to the record store where I worked mistakenly asking for Diana Ross' song Up in a Puff of Smoke, (Polly Brown stole Diana's voice) and later people thinking "Gloria" was by Donna Summer until Laura Branigan got established.

[trish]

Ever since the Andrews Sisters it has been a hallmark of successful groups to use the same lead singer to develop an exact sound which will become the "brand." People who hear a new song on the radio will immediately recognize who the artist is and go out looking at the local record store for "that new Supremes record I heard today on the radio but I don't remember the name of the song."
At least it worked that way back then.
Making those connections of vocals to artist made all the difference in finding the record you wanted to buy. I still remember people coming to the record store where I worked mistakenly asking for Diana Ross' song Up in a Puff of Smoke, (Polly Brown stole Diana's voice) and later people thinking "Gloria" was by Donna Summer until Laura Branigan got established.

That may be true, but coming from the same era and same company, it wasn't true with the Temptations. Everyone who sings well is not necessarily a lead singer. Motown recognized that. For instance Mary Wilson of the Supremes didn't have the voice of a lead singer. That applies to many groups. The Temptations had a number of leads and utilized them all. David, Eddie, Paul and Melvin of the original group all sung lead and songs were written for each of them that became hits. Whenever you bought an album (and I bought them all) you could be sure you would hear all voices.

Here's an article

Florence Ballard Fan Club

[normvork]

That may be true, but coming from the same era and same company, it wasn't true with the Temptations. Everyone who sings well is not necessarily a lead singer. Motown recognized that. For instance Mary Wilson of the Supremes didn't have the voice of a lead singer. That applies to many groups. The Temptations had a number of leads and utilized them all. David, Eddie, Paul and Melvin of the original group all sung lead and songs were written for each of them that became hits. Whenever you bought an album (and I bought them all) you could be sure you would hear all voices.

Here's an article

Florence Ballard Fan Club

I have to concede there are important exceptions to the strategy, also noting the Beatles and Fleetwood Mac. Regarding the Temptations, however, I can't say they had a distinctive sound that set them apart from a dozen other male groups of their time. I couldn't hear an unknown song by one of those groups and identify if it was the Temps or Four Tops or someone else. If Smokey Robinson was singing, I knew who it was. If Diana Ross sang it, I could figure it out...until Polly Brown came along.