The Cerrone War (Cerrone vs. Alec R Costandinos and Leroy Gomez

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Ok, after reading on another thread about "Accidental lover" sounding like Cerrone. I decided ill make a thread about the story off all this. Well, it began in 1975 when Costandinos got together with Cerrone and made "Love In C Minor". It was Alec's first disco record. He had previously done little things for other French pop artists in the early 70s. Anyway, Cerrone tried to take all the credit for C minor. Going as far as putting out a press kit claming he wrote, recorded and produced this album all himself. Alec was left in the dust and his work unnoticed unless u read small LP credits on the jacket. Costandinos got very pissed by this and went off and made 2 LP's (or 12"s with covers if u wanna call them that as well). The first was the Love And Kisses one. "Accidental Lover" was made as proof that Alec was C Minor. Down to even the simmalar sax solo in almost the exact same spot in both records. It was a combo musicly of "C Minor" and "Midnight Lady". Then Alec went and did the Sphinx deal. "Judas..." was basicly Romeo And Juliet and Hunchback... in the making. "Simon Peter" once again was Alec's anger at Cerrone pulling the same thing as he did on "Accidental Lover". Also, if u look at the credits on Cerrone's "Cerrone's Paradise" lp, u'll notice there is no thanks at all to Alec, but just to Don Ray. The war was in progress and Alec was pissed and giving it all he had. In the meenwhile, Alec started going deeper and concintrating on getting his famous "sound" established and stopped with the Cerrone stabbs so to speak. Cerrone however did it again, this time to a guy by the name of Leroy Gomez(ring a bell anyone??). The group name and LP was called Revelacion and they did a spanish influinced disco version of "House Of The Rising Sun". For side A of this LP it was totaly produced and the idea of the spanish disco was by Leroy Gomez. On the LP his name is not even mentioned. Leroy's answer to this was Santa Esmeralda. He went a bit deeper than Alec to get back at Mr. Cerrone. He chose another Eric Burdon track "Dont Let Me Be Misunderstood" and totaly did it to the same music as "House..." and even the same paterns and sections to prove himself. If u play both these records together from the Revelacion Suite and Esmeralda Suite portions, they do not go out of sync at all through the rest of the record. Just different lyrics. Leroy then gave vocals over to a guy named Jimmy Goings for the next LP and did another Spanish influinced "House..;." under Esmeralda's name. Cerrone's responce to this was releasing a track under the Revelacion name called "Dont Give A Damn". Listen to the lyrics of this one. It appears to be about one thing but it is hidden that some lyrics are being spoken about the Esmeralda deal. Very tricky and slick i must say. After this the music war was just about done and put to rest with each of the artists developing thier own sound and going their own ways. But, Alec didnt forget about all this and came back out with a "hidden" crack back at it all on the "Paris Connection" LP. On the "You Lost That Loving Feeling/Unchained Melody" suite, smack in the middle Alec breaks into a compleate instrumental run through of the "Love In C Minor" chorus. You know, the part, "loooove meeeee....dadadaadada...", but without the lyrics. And if you listen close, u can hear a very angry breathing as this part is going on(i picked it up on my headphones). So, thats the Cerrone war story for those who didnt know about it. I did much research on Alec, who is one of my all time favorite artists of all geners of music, thats how i got the inside scoop on all this. So, if this info is new to anyone and u have all these albums, then pull em out and take a listen. It'll be very shocking.

DJ Jimmy M

[DotBomb]

What a terriffic story! When I spoke with Elton Ahi last year, the second I mentioned Cerrone, he cut me off with, "He's an *******." I always knew Costandinos held a grudge against Cerrone... and was not aware of the Paris Connection reference to Love In C Minor.

And I was totally unaware of the whole Leroy Gomez story... impressive!!

Now I'm just trying to find a copy of Revalacion's "Don't Give A Damn"...

Thanks for the info..

[Jimmy-Michaels]

I don't know if "Dont Give A Damn" is on an LP or not. I have a 12" single with a picture sleave. If there is an LP id like to know so i can track it down. On the B side is as i would call it, an under construction version of "Living On Love". It's titled here, "Living It Up".

DJ Jimmy M

[The Lord of Flatbush]

This is an excellent story! I was quite impressed with the research made and all of its findings. I never knew of any beef between the parties involved and those who were included, along with the sound bytes on those prior records. Great job!

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Paris Connection with the C Minor bit i discovered on my own when i first heard it. I knew the war story, then when i heard that break in at the middle i was just like, holy ****, he didnt let it go!!! I even went as far as to do a little 3 min mix for my own listening bleeding the vocals of C Minor over this part. The strange thing is, i had to pitch down C Minor to -8 to get it to go in perfect sync. And by doing this the vocals are in the right key and all. One more bizzare twist to add to all of this.

DJ Jimmy M

[rhessel]

Hello DJ Jimmy M and the others...

I already known about the war between Costandinos and Cerrone. As a matter of fact I have a magazine (Disco World, from 1978 or so)which has an interview with Costandinos. In this interview he told among other subjects some details about this misunderstanding they had.

I typed this interview and sent it to Bernie which summarized it and published in this board incluind the most important information. Due to copyright matters Bernie didn't transcribed all the interview.

So, I think its the right time to Bernie to make another summary (or even to write it again) of this interview. If he don't have the file anymore I could send him another copy. (Hey Bernie now its up to you. Thanks)

[NickNack]

DJ Jimmy M,

Excellent piece. So many of us here have discussed these artists before but you more than adequately added to those discussions. I knew all this music sounded, at times, similar, but had no idea what was going on in the background.

Now, once again, I have to hunt through my lp's and find Revalacion, among others. It's been 'misfiled' for almost a year --- driving me crazy.

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Yes, i would love to see whatever can be posted of that interview with Alec. Also, someone told me once that Alec did an interview for Playboy Mag. in 1978 as well discussing Romeo And Juliet and the Cerrone issue. Also, can anyone tell me if "Don't Give A Damn" was more than just a 12" single? If there is an LP, there might be more hidden stuff on it and id like to get it.

DJ Jimmy M

[Voyage]

Thanks for this great piece of Disco History. I didn't know a lot of the things you mentioned before about this war. Neither did I know about the war.

I agree with you that Alec is a Music Master!

[Chap2Power]

Regarding Cerrone and Costandinos, you guys are missing the point here. Costandinos first worked with Cerrone on the Kongas album, first released on Barclay that had the (M)alligator on the cover. Cerrone was the drummer in the band. They worked on Anikana-O together and that's where the branch off for Cerrone to do his album came about. Constandinos is a legend as a composer, having written songs selling millions with the likes of Vangelis for artists like Demis Roussos. Don Ray is mentioned on the 2nd album because he arranged the record. Aside this, there's never been any mention of Leroy Gomez every working with Cerrone, and Gomez himself was never comfortable with being a part of a disco band. He had toured with Tavares as a sax player. He only acknowledged his roots by doing the album with Simon Soussan that featured Get Up Boogie. Cerrone has had lots of run ins and his roller coaster rides with relationships. Most of these guys did.

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Well don't wanna start a war of our own here, lol, but i got that info i had from very good sorces and i have the records i mentioned as proof. Also, someone has an interview with Costandinos from a mag. stating some of the same story i have posted(see other post in this thread). The 2nd LP I was refering to was "Cerrone's Paradise" which Don Ray isn't even on. I was refering to the specal thank you credits as to people who have helped him in the past with no mention of Costandinos. And Leroy Gomez DID work with Cerrone it is just not givin credit where credit should be given (which is what started the war on that one, Revelacion), that info i got from digging deeper into Cerrone's "misunderstandings" with artists.

DJ Jimmy M

[rmenpark]

This album is referred to as an EP(extended Play). Released in Nov/Dev 1978 on Malligator records # J1611 182 out of France.

Song listings are as follows:
Side A:
Living it up (10:00)
The time is right (6:40)

Side B:
Don't give a damn (16:50)

After being away from this site for almost 2 years, I'm suprised that this topic is still raging on.

[rmenpark]

Yes, i would love to see whatever can be posted of that interview with Alec. Also, someone told me once that Alec did an interview for Playboy Mag. in 1978 as well discussing Romeo And Juliet and the Cerrone issue. Also, can anyone tell me if "Don't Give A Damn" was more than just a 12" single? If there is an LP, there might be more hidden stuff on it and id like to get it.

DJ Jimmy M

Sorry, I just realized I had already answered this some time ago. Again I've been away far too long from this site.

[JussiK]

This is kinda like the book "The Divine Feud", the story of the Bette Davis and Joan Crawford battle, only with a better beat. Who knows what the real truth of the matter is?

[Videoskooter]

Maybe it's a pre-Da Vinci Code thang?

"Love In Costandinos Minor". Maybe the mysterie is solved in that title and Marc wanted to say that Alec just had a little part in the production/writing:-o :-o :-o

[Nano]

Some time ago I posted that "Susie Wong", a track released by Spanish funk band Barrabás in 1974, has a bassline that reminds me of that one in "Love in C Minor". Someone (I think it was Disco Funk) said the Kongas album sounded a lot like Barrabás first LP. So maybe Cerrone was getting ideas from there as well (an early vacation in Spain, maybe?).

Now we need someone who stands in Cerrone's defense... If not, we will end testifying he ripped off Beethoven! :grin:

[Videoskooter]

we will end testifying he ripped off Beethoven! :grin:

Seriously, "Supernature" has a little touch of Bach! All music is evolutionary!

I suspect that our fellow member "Discoman" is really Sir Alec. Like he's always picking on the French. Mmmmh, maybe he just wants to hit out at his former pal !

[telmo]

Terrific, great story, thank you Jimmy M. I'd heard before on this Cerrone-Costandinos war, but not to this detail.

I have to say I definitely take part in favor of Costandinos, a great musician-artist-composer, no comparison to Cerrone, a hit hunter.

But then, what about the KONGAS - MACHO war?

I just found out on this only a few months ago, when I had the chance to listen to Kongas' "Africanism/Gimme Some Loving", a track released on 1977.

Maybe I'm wrong but this release means that Cerrone's kongas "patented" on 1977 what in the future was going to be the Malavasi-Fred Petrus trademark sound.

If you listen to "Gimme Some Loving", a Kongas' disco version of an original track by Steve Winwood & Spencer Davis, it will be impossible for you not to say that it is exactly the same concept used two years later on Macho's "I'm a man", wich is also a disco version of a Winwood-Davis hit, and established what later was going to be considered as the very recognizable Malavasi-Petrus sound. It is like Macho "sampled" the Kongas sound before samplers were invented.

Am I wrong or this is the first time Cerrone was stolen an idea, instead of the opposite?

Is there another omitted credit story here?

Telmo

[andyy]

This might be an old thread to some but i have only read this for the first time, i had no idea alec constandinos versus of the cerrones cheekiness and i only recently managed to get Romeo And juliet from Brazil off ebay US i love it very much and also the Cerrone sound cheeeky frenchmen they are beggers to us Brits . But still love my Cerrone records.

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

Good Lord! Here we go again...:icon_rolleyes:

Though I'm flattered to have been contacted about rectifying this issue yet again:icon_eek:... I'm not going to re-write it all. It's too exhausting, every couple years, chasing-down these rediculous rumours.

So here's some previously posted FACTS:

Sound the Alarm!
Stopping this thread from raising it's ugly head, once again.:icon_twisted:

NONE of that is true! Absolutely, positively NOT true!

DJ JIMMY M's post was the catalyst for my joining this site, as it was such a phenomenal fabrication of imaginary events.

For starters, Santa Esmerelda's version was recorded and released about 6 months PRIOR to the Revelation version. (NOT the other way around, which is the basis for that "story".) And Leroy Gomez wasn't even involved in the release. He was working with Simon Soussan by then.

The Santa Esmerelda vocalist was Jimmy Goings. And the Revelation vocalist, L. Rich, had been working with (and continued to...) Cerrone for years.

The only thing that ties these tracks together are the Arrangers, Jean-Claude Petit and Don Ray.

It's VERY frustrating for guys like me, and some of the Senior Members of the site, when a newcomer wants to know the details, or what it was really like, etc... Because we have to bounce around de-bunking all the rumour crap that clogs the threads. And, as I think the old saying goes, "If enough people say it, it must be true."

It's hard not to look like the Disco Police, but I get sooo pissed-off when I read garbage from overactive imaginations, or fuzzy, vodka-laced, drug-daze memories posted as fact, with nothing concrete to back them up.

As you wander through the site you'll see who has their knowledge intact. Some in very distinct areas of the genre, and some on a more general level. Posts from people like Jussik, Videoscooter, GrahamStuart, Dayna, SandraDee, dancer5612004, Markydefad and Quinny, will be based upon, or followed-up by, FACTUAL knowledge and/or truelife experience.
They may be DRIPPING in personal opinion and sarcasm! (LOL!) But they WILL be accurate, in their facts!

RE: "Don't Give A Damn"... No, it's not about Leroy. It's about coming out. Just like it says in the lyrics. Listen to the entire record, including the "Paper Tigers" section, where the voice-over is a guy on the phone, explaining to a girl why he stood her up for their date. And about his roommate 'Bill'.

Considering the dreamt-up feud between Cerrone and Gomez was supposed to have taken place in 1977. Why, in 1979, would he release a 17 minute piece, just to "aim the first verse" at Leroy??? It's a rediculous story, not even worthy of rumour status.

I have a few LPs that Don Ray did arrangements on, prior to Alec & Cerrone, etc... For instance, the LP "Disco" by Claude Francois. Wherein the arrangements are done by none other than J.C. Petit, Ray Jimenez, Ray Donnez (Don Ray) and Slim Pezin (Voyage, Sumeria, Symphonie Spatiale). AND... Not one track could be considered as of the French Disco Sound that we relate to Alec and Cerrone, etc... They all have a much more disco-pop feel to them. Notably, as well, J.C. Petit arranged almost, if not all of Alec's solo singles from '69, '70... At least all the ones I have. (But I am closing-in on the complete Alec, pre-disco, solo collection.) Yet, aside from some trademark string runs, there's absolutely no indication of what was to come in '76. Although, the Khnenetsky arranged and Alec composed LP, "Saturn EA" did hint at the synthesizer elements that were to become staple parts of the French Disco sound, this LP was also a '77 release, but prior to Love & Kisses, and in no way, near the same vein. I doubt Alec produce it, but can't be sure, since there's no producer credited. But, as far as Khnenetsky's arrangements are concerned, the 1st track is, conceptually, VERY similar to the "Landsdowne" and "Trident" Suites, from Paris Connection.

Although the most infamous LPs state they're arranged by Don Ray, remember that he is, primarily, a string & horn arranger. He, along with J.C. Petit, R. Khnenetsky and R. Jimenez were orchestrally duplicating a "sound" created by Alec. As well as imitating eachother. Hence, the insane similarity between Don Ray's arrangement of "House of The Rising Sun", and J. C. Petit' arrangement of the same, for Santa Esmerelda. (Oh yeah... The reason Don Ray didn't arrange the 2nd Santa Esmeralda LP, in the summer of '77, is because he was too busy with "Sumeria", "Romeo and Juliet" and the strings & horns for the "Supernature" LP, ALL at the same time. No other reason. Believe no rumours to the contrary.) And, for the record, Don Ray's production is simply better than J.C. Petit's. J.C. Petit was, obviously, brought in to knock-off the arrangement on the previous hit "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood". (Anyone knows that it was the latin-french disco fusion arrangement, not necessarily the vocals, that made that a world-wide hit) And he did so, perfectly! But Don Ray's horns, strings and percussion were more original in his interpretation for Revelation, at he end of that same year. Even if the track was, essentially the same. Honestly, Santa Esmerelda's version tanked. And Cerrone jumped on the idea, by backing another production, with Don Ray. Wherein he showed that he's better at doing "Don Ray", than anyone else. No great drama here. Just the music business, as usual. Lastly, L. Rich's vocals (backed by the birds of paris) are simply better than Jimmy Goings'.

It wasn't until after he combined his take on his & Alec's "French Disco Sound" with the writings of Lene Lovich, for Cerrone's "Supernature", that Don found his own groove. (Listen to "Standing in The Rain", then listen to "Supernature". Then listen to "Je Suis Music", then listen to Don's production of Michelle Freeman's "Tumble Heat". There's no questioning their similarities in the use of strings and horns. Don Ray's strings and horns are almost easily identifiable, without reading the label.)

And..FINALLY...regarding the similarities between Revolucion and Macho...

The answer is in your own sentence. BOTH songs were written by Winwood and Davis. And BOTH Disco versions were based upon the ORIGINAL basslines & rythmn tracks.

What you're hearing is Don Ray/Cerrone and Malavasi/Taylor, copying Winwood and Spencer. Not eachother.

Go dig-up some Malavasi/Valli/Taylor productions from before "I'm A Man". The elements you're singling-out, are in those productions, as well.

[telmo]

mmm… talking about the supposed KONGAS (not Revolucion) vs. MACHO war, I remember that one of my favorite 12 inches used to be an 80's eurodisco version of "Gimme Some Loving" by italian artists FUN FUN. I don't find in this version those identical elements present on KONGAS and MACHO. Maybe that means that cover versions don't have to sound the same. Much less when different artists are covering different songs from the same original artist… Or maybe FUN FUN found their way to reinterpret a 60’s song without mimicking other original or covering artists… I’m very sorry if I disturb anyone here but I still think coincidences between KONGAS and MACHO are too obvious.

Telmo

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

mmm… talking about the supposed KONGAS (not Revolucion) vs. MACHO war

My mistake. Albeit an obvious typo, considering the extensive, prior text.

I remember that one of my favorite 12 inches used to be an 80's eurodisco version of "Gimme Some Loving" by italian artists FUN FUN. I don't find in this version those identical elements present on KONGAS and MACHO.

Probably because the Fun Fun version was a, distinctly "House" mix. Not Euro-Disco. Though, it did retain the exact same bassline, as every version of the song. Since the bassline is the historic-signature of the song.

Maybe that means that cover versions don't have to sound the same. Much less when different artists are covering different songs from the same original artist...

A most obvious example would be "MacArthur Park"
With the exception of the signature horn riff (which you couldn't remove from the arrangement), Donna's version is about as far as you can get, from the original 1968 recording by Richard Harris.
But... The 1977 Disco version by "Camoflague" (the 2nd half of "Disco Symphony") is an almost identical arrangement to the original.

[remicks]

And..FINALLY...regarding the similarities between Revolucion (Kongas) and Macho...

The answer is in your own sentence. BOTH songs were written by Winwood and Davis. And BOTH Disco versions were based upon the ORIGINAL basslines & rythmn tracks. .

What you're hearing is Don Ray/Cerrone and Malavasi/Taylor, copying Winwood and Spencer. Not eachother.

Go dig-up some Malavasi/Valli/Taylor productions from before "I'm A Man". The elements you're singling-out, are in those productions, as well.

What were the productions by them before I'M A MAN ???:icon_confused:

I have to respectfully disagree Stephen and say that it is possible to do a discofied version based upon the original bass lines & rhythm tracks of a Winwood /Davis song and not sound like Kongas/DonRay/Cerrone .

Interestingly, I'M A MAN in particular.


Here's the harder sounding John Driscoll created version of I'M A MAN that was released in that same period as Macho's ...1978.....







******

[kdavid13]

What were the productions by them before I'M A MAN ???:icon_confused:

I have to respectfully disagree Stephen and say that it is possible to do a discofied version based upon the original bass lines & rhythm tracks of a Winwood /Davis song and not sound like Kongas/DonRay/Cerrone .

Interestingly, I'M A MAN in particular.


Here's the harder sounding John Driscoll created version of I'M A MAN that was released in that same period as Macho's ...1978.....







******

I've always thought that Karen Silver's vocals were delicious on this one .
:icon_cool:

[remicks]

I've always thought that Karen Silver's vocals were delicious on this one .
:icon_cool:

Yes her brief appearance at 6:12 offers needed relief. I really like this version overall ... would like it more sans the selected male lead vocal though .
" Ah'm a ma-yan!"




I've an urge to mix this into SHINE ON SILVER MOON .... :icon_surprised:



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