DJ Question: How did DJ's get such perfect mixes?

[Rab]

This question is directed toward DJ's familiar with mixing disco from the late 70's. I do specify the late 70's because later on the music became so "techno" oriented the art of mixing became lost....a lot of the music had a similar sound.

More specifically, I'm interested in, how for example, did they mix the top hits of each year on Disconet. They used to come out with a medley that was perfectly in sync. Did this involve a lot of practice and tedious work? Probably a lot of abuse to the vinyl as well? It would sound like perhaps more than 2 turntables were involved.

I can remember when DJ's used to overlap...actually creep in a song, at the perfect moment then fade it out not missing a beat. People in the crowd that were perceptive, knew that was going to be the next song mixed in and would jump on the dance floor.

If your familiar with Carrie Lucas "Dance With You" you know that there is a fierce electric guitar sound in the song, and I can remember hearing that jump in during a Village People song intermittently. A few minutes later, you heard that electric guitar sound again..but maybe a little louder, then the DJ would complete the mix at exactly the moment the Village People would break and Carrie Lucas would sing...Dancing with you!, is all I want to do, can't get you off my mind, want too be with you all the time... It was wonderful....

[Mixmachine]

It was all about practice and knowing your music, in order to mix at the ‘perfect’ spot you had to know how to keep track of musical measures (multiples of 4 beats ) by counting and memorizing them (or making notes on label), for instance, in your example the DJ probably counted how many measures to the spot where Carrie’s vocals kicks in and then he knew exactly when the Village People’s break was coming and how long it was, again by counting measures , so after practicing this mix a few times it becomes very easy, (unless you are drunk in the booth and lose count :lol:) Many Disconets mixes made use of ‘Loops’ and combined those with turntables overlays and well placed edits and fades, many times re-mixers also added new drum beat and/or effects over the original recordings.

If you were into heavy duty ‘mixing’ back then you could create your own mixes at home in a controlled environment to play back in the club later; I used a 10’’ Reel to Reel player to record and cut an 8 beat loop of any favorite song’s break, (loop only goes over the playback head and one Reel ) then used turntables to lay other music and/or mixes over that while recording on a second Reel machine to edit later, then you can cut a new 8 beat loop with the added material, play that loop back and lay more music over that one too, and so on, by using this process and your creative imagination you could edit and construct a unique exclusive mix with as many layers as you deemed possible as long as you didn’t over do the layering (bad Sonics) or screwed up the Mix, :lol: I’m sure many different DJs used different techniques back in the day to achieve similar results, but this trick was even used in Big Label productions like Criteria Studios(TK) BITD. And today all this can be done with simple software and a computer. :o

[hotdiscomix]

Here can you read the Making Of… "Octomnipent Zeitgeist" Medley (Hot Tracks 1985) story.
Okay, the medley is not from late 70s, but one of the best year-end medleys.

[QUINNY]

Are we hearing through rose tinted ears, I wonder, concerning live disco DJs and their mixing? Even the best had a terrifically hard time beat mixing records with none too stable tempii, noise, distractions etc. The best mixes I've heard are from radio shows, which were made in a more controlled environment.

Any of those end of year mixes would have been a labour of love, involving many hours of painstaking research and production. They would have got though lots of razor blades (if they took it seriously, 'cos did you know that a razor blade used to edit reel to reel tapes gets magnetised after a few edits and actually causes a minute clunk to be heard?) and gallons of coffee, not to mention anything else.

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Razor blades and tape of live spinning is the way of the disconet type mixes. As for the other stuff as in spinning live. Its all in the practice, having your own style and skill and most of all, knowing to keep your hand on the spindle and pitch dial at the same time while creaping in the next track and knowing where to mix in and out of on a track. Basicly, you can sucessfully mix any song of any genre in and out of disco tracks. Its all having the feeling in your mind and body and concentrating on the midrange of a track rather than beat or bassline and pitching them right to match up in the end and most of all..catching the 4/4.

[Noman]

It was all about practice and knowing your music, :o

I totally agree on that.

You can wake me up in the middle of the night and give me my old records, and I will give you a live mix that you will never forget Give me music I don't know, I'll improvise and produce some decent sessions, but far from those that you came up with after spending time with your records and the turntables night after night after night.... 25 years ago.... :cry:

[QUINNY]

I'll tell you an interesting story.

In my latter years as a DJ I started having quite a few young guest DJs sharing nights with me. They could all mix well and obviously I DID feel threatened 'cos I realised that any resident Dj was only as good as his last good night.

Anyhow, one of these guys seemed absolutely brilliant, 'cos he mixed by just listening to the incomeng track for a few seconds on cans before he'd do the mix by just listening to the sound through the speakers in the room. This I couldn't do in a million years, partly 'cos I was used to mixing using headphones and 'cos my hearing was partly shot after 12 years or so as a club DJ.

I decided I'd record an evening with the two of us and.......voila! The guy who I'd thought was so brilliant turned out to be doing mixes that were not so special when heard directly out of the mixer onto cassette. What sounded like brilliant mixing live was actually quite imprecise. He had stuff going out of sync all the time, whereas mine were nearly always absolutely on the beat.

So........maybe, just maybe those DJs weren't so hot. Who can ever know, except I'll reiterate....I've yet to hear a really good live mix tape from BITD.

[Videoskooter]

Many people asked me how I did (and still do) it. It's like people already said it here. You have to KNOW your records from the first second to the last and memorise them.

With new records, after a few times listening to them I started concentrating on stripping them down, listen to the beat or the breaks or special things and I would try to mix 'em in my mind with other ones. After you try the combinations you practice again and again and again. Sorry, no tape on the vinyl or marks or whatever. Be one with the 2 or 3 records you mix and the beat will go on.

When I started doing radio I found it hilarious that some DJ's were working with a timer. To me that was a proof that they didn't know their stuff or simply that they hadn't got IT. I always knew exactly when the vocals began just using what you can call "The Force" :D

You definitely need a feeling for music and beats. Without that talent you'll never be a good mixer.

[Noman]

You definitely need a feeling for music and beats. Without that talent you'll never be a good mixer.

I agree on that too:

You have too know MUSIC.. I knew many busy DJ:s back then who knew their records and practiced like madmen, so they where technically quite good, but they didn't have the musicality and feel to make them superior (as I was )

[QUINNY]

[quote="Videoskooter
When I started doing radio I found it hilarious that some DJ's were working with a timer. To me that was a proof that they didn't know their stuff or simply that they hadn't got IT. I always knew exactly when the vocals began just using what you can call "The Force" :D
[/quote]

I also found this technique hilarious but then I realised they had a talent/technique I wouldn't ever have. So who's the more clever of the two? Natural talent or hard worker?

BTW: it never ceases to amaze me how many fine musicians have trouble counting up to 8 or 16 or can't feel the music to know when they should come back into a track.

[Mixmachine]

Are we hearing through rose tinted ears, I wonder, concerning live disco DJs and their mixing? Even the best had a terrifically hard time beat mixing records with none too stable tempii, noise, distractions etc.

decided I'd record an evening with the two of us and.......voila! The guy who I'd thought was so brilliant turned out to be doing mixes that were not so special when heard directly out of the mixer onto cassette. What sounded like brilliant mixing live was actually quite imprecise. He had stuff going out of sync all the time, whereas mine were nearly always absolutely on the beat

I never had this problem, if the club didn't have decent monitors in the booth I carried my own Amp and monitor plug into the extra 'input" on the Bosak and set up next to my right ear, some times over my record crates, it is a very well known fact that there is always a sound 'delay' to the booth when using the 'Dance floor' speakers as monitors, most likely your mixes will be off.

[QUINNY]

Are you pulling our todgers? I believe you, really I do, but can't help imagining how crowded the DJ booth must have been.

What was wrong with using headphones, or didn't those fantastic, brilliant, best mixers ever (yeah :roll: ) Bozak mixers have a loud, split headphone output facility? :lol:

It was so much easier mixing with one deck in one ear and the other in t'other using our crappy limey mixer's headphone socket.

[Mixmachine]

Are you pulling our todgers? I believe you, really I do, but can't help imagining how crowded the DJ booth must have been.

Well, I looked up “todgers” in my English-Cuban dictionary and is not there, but I’m afraid is not anything nice anyways. :lol:

Yes some booth were crowded, some clubs I did had other Dj’s crates in there so mine went on the floor and Monitor over that, to go to the can I had to move the monitor( band type) around or climb over the whole thing if it was not to late into the night and was still able :P

What was wrong with using headphones, or didn't those fantastic, brilliant, best mixers ever (yeah :roll: ) Bozak mixers have a loud, split headphone output facility? :lol: ]

Well, Mr Quinny, Bozaks were very good for early club music ‘chop’ style mixing( but you didn’t have to worry about that yet, right? :lol: ) and I mastered them like countless other Djs of the day even for the more demanding beat matching or blending style, but by the late 70’s most clubs in my area moved to the GLI (and others)with slide knobs, never used the ‘split’ headphone mixing technique or the new ‘crossfade’ feature, left ear on my Fostex set and right ear wide open to soak up the clubs ‘ambiance’ ( a necessity in my book) mixed in with a good set of monitor next to my face.

it was so much easier mixing with one deck in one ear and the other in t'other using our crappy limey mixer's headphone socket.

But I was not as interested in “ease” as much as my mixing results, Your post tells me that you began mixing late in the game, cause the great majority of Club DJ’s I met that began in the early days (pre-75) never switched to ‘split’ mixing even when the new Mixer Gear generation allowed for this. I tried it a couple of times and didn’t like it, IMO my hearing was already accustomed to doing it the other way and there was no turning back, besides using one ear looked cool :lol: .

[QUINNY]

Aah!! you've made a big assumption. I was playing continuous music in 1974 doing segues and blends and took to beat mixing in late '77. Maybe a little late by U.S. standards but way ahead of the game for a guy from dear ol' Blighty.

FYI: Todger = dick

[The Lord of Flatbush]

From my experiences, songs must harmonically and rhythmatically go together to make a mix perfect. Using BPM can be tough because of the live instruments played on those songs.

There's more to it, but practice makes perfect!

[dbmc]

I agree with others - its all about knowing your music intimately and practice practice practice.

I've only recently started to mix disco after learning and getting quite good with house.
Its hard work, riding the pitch and matching sounds but worth every second if ya love disco.

[The Lord of Flatbush]

I agree with others - its all about knowing your music intimately and practice practice practice.

I've only recently started to mix disco after learning and getting quite good with house.
Its hard work, riding the pitch and matching sounds but worth every second if ya love disco.

Mixing House Music is easily than mixing Disco Music because of the BPM within its straight beats than the live instruments from percussion, strings and other sounds.

Practice makes perfect!

[JussiK]

But even if one gets real good at beatmixing he or she should not just throw one say 133 bpm piece of vinyl on the turntable, one after the other. What makes a mixed set interesting is the choice of material, especially if you're spinning disco. Should you have a hot voodoo drums and jungle rhythm kind of thing going strong with Mangous Ye by Black Blood and Feel Africa by The Boxolettes then going into a torch song like Don't Turn Around by The Raes will change the mood completely. If you go back to the jungle after that you'll bomb. - Doing the unorthodox sometimes works wery well, though. Usually one is expected to turn the bass up near the end of a track and then come in with a new tune with lots of highs. Try doing it the other way around for a change. Slow things down as much as the Technics will allow and make Liquid Gold's instrumental of The Night The Wine and The Roses sound real trippy. Experiment a LOT.

[buckaroo]

Hiya guys,

I'm a bedroom-ish budding DJ, looking to learn a few tricks as it were. How can I go about this though? Do I need to find an Obi Wan Kenobi DJ type to take me under his/her wing? Do one of those hyper expensive courses? Or can I learn enough to be getting on with, from a book? I've just been looking at a few on Amazon

I once saw Carl Cox on TV saying that, "It's not werf becoming a DJ deez daze, as it's too competitive. And hard to be inovative. What can be done, has been." I thought, "You lying sod. You're just scared of the competition. :lol:

Any advice appreciated.

[MixMasterMax]

Find articles covering beat counting and measures. This is the basic.

[Mixmachine]

Find articles covering beat counting and measures. This is the basic.

Yes, Bukaroo, knowing how to track ‘measures’ is indispensable for good mixing, everything else is built around this knowledge. I’ve heard many Djs that never mastered this knowledge and even though their mixing was ‘on beat’ the ‘transition’ never sounds as good, or ‘smooth’. In the early days of mixing using 7” almost exclusively the ‘Chop’ mix style was heavily used, and without following your ‘measures’ it is almost impossible to ‘chop’ mix effectively, especially if you want to keep your floor; Early DJs that knew and used this method considered ‘measures’ a trade secret and never told anyone, mostly DJs with a Music background and their friends were in the ‘know’ column, the rest had to wait for someone to spill the secret during a drunken stupor. :lol:

[judydoggie]

Oh, the poor soul who's looking for an Obi Wan Kenobi. I compare dee-jaying in a big town to bartending in a big town. Sure, there are plenty of these places where one can "learn bartending" -- there are also "broadcasting schools" or worse "dee-jay courses" that teach basics.

Hate to tell you, after nearly thirty years in this business, either one has it or one does not. I, personally, do not. I have, however, had the privilege and honor to see some of the finest in the business in action. They've either worked for me, or we've worked together, and they knew that I was such a klutz with the booth that I would never, ever eclipse their fame and they didn't mind if I watched. In fact, you never know, maybe you, too, my son, will find a truly good-hearted professional who indeed has enough self-respect and confidence that he will allow you to stand back and watch and learn. It helps to take notes -- this shows dedication on your part. And never, ever, ever, party in the booth. Dee jays who do that prior to an hour before closing are far from professional.

Did you know that the late Jim Burgess was a classically trained musician. His intimate knowledge of musical theory and structure took him a long way. His mixes were like compositions. He was also cutting-edge when it came to mixing in his own recordings of bits of dialogue from radio and television. I recently traded emails with his widower. The dear man thank God is going on with his life but to this day mourns Jim on a daily basis. Jim would practice and practice and practice like a musician.

There are so, so many songs out there, a good dee jay must know them well, and enough of them to fill an entire night's programming, moving them around and making them fit seamlessly with one another with the special creative twist that makes the mix his or her "own." How? Mix at home for two hours straight, play it back. Do it again. Mix some more. Play it back. Repeat. Get it right.

We are very, very lucky nowadays that we have electronic devices that allow us to create and pre-record particularly delightful tease-mixes and very creative stuff, bring them in on CD, and then, just mix these long mixes together by making sure that the beginning and end of each are sure winners, BPM, key and mood matching seamlessly. Problem with this is, you've gotta have a number of these on hand, including "escape hatches" that are just pedal-to-the-metal, all-out crowd pleasers. God forbid you're playing something YOU think is great but there's nobody on the floor. Who know's why? The local factory's late with a paycheck -- a local popular figure's in the hospital or, worse, dead -- the club coke dealer went and got busted -- whatever reason, you need a mix that's kinda like a "in emergency break glass" or you're dead. Figure that in too.

Good luck, to the new ones.

One last note. I chuckled when hearing mention earlier about the razor blades and tape. Was that not the bitch of the century? In a good studio, you could use two or three good Ampex full-track machines and keep the recording machine's record head energized all the time, and just "punch" in what you needed; that's what we did most of the time.

I'm collecting stories of pre-1975 mixing and tape recording stories, whether disco or studio recording; particularly when Murphy's law prevailed. Drop me a line at jazz@asianfusion.net. Doubts about their use? Website is www.asianfusion.net - click on Entertainment Group tab.

Yours, musically,

Paul (a.k.a. judydoggie)

[Mixmachine]

Quinny, I edited my reply to your post on page 2 for some reason I quoted the wrong portion for my reply, tha's why I could not understand your post about "pulling todgers".

[QUINNY]

One last note. I chuckled when hearing mention earlier about the razor blades and tape. Was that not the bitch of the century? In a good studio, you could use two or three good Ampex full-track machines and keep the recording machine's record head energized all the time, and just "punch" in what you needed; that's what we did most of the time.

Paul (a.k.a. judydoggie)

Quite frankly Paul, that makes me giggle. I can't imagine how you'd get a good accurate edit doing that! Used to do it with cassette decks though (sometimes very good results), back in the old piano key days.

Oh well! Whatever floats the boat.

[buckaroo]

Cheers.