Attacks on Afghanistan

[Leanmean]

Is there anyone else out there besides me who thinks our government is just performing symbolic measures by bombing Afghanistan? It seems to be a whitewash job to me because they can't figure out beyond a shadow of a doubt who was behind the Sept. 11 attacks on our soil.



It's just like the airport "security" measures of checking IDs (so what?!) and making sure people don't carry on toenail clippers. Again, so what?! Symbolic measures. Airline pilots were trained (prior to the attacks) to let hijackers have what they wanted. Now there are more severe measures being taken such as re-training, more secure cockpit doors and air marshals on board.



While we are bombing the **** out of innocent (and perhaps a few not so innocent) people, Bin Laden may not have really been behind the particular attacks we have accused him of. Then again, if our "intelligence" knows he is, why this blustery show of might? Why not infiltrate and nail him?



We are making the exact same mistakes Russia did by bombing blindly in a terrain that they proved is hard-to-impossible to penetrate. As a newscaster said this morning about putting ground troops in Afghanistan: "Without support from surrounding countries, our troops could easily be trapped. They would be surrounded by the enemy and we could not get them out."



The Russian report about their mistakes in the Afghan war is available now to the public.



The bombing is just making us look stupid, like bullies. I wonder if the families and friends who lost their loved ones at the WTC and Pentagon feel any better because we are bombing a country because it is harboring terrorists. Would they feel even better if we bombed Argentina or Iraq because those countries might also harbor terrorists?



We need someone to infiltrate and find out EXACTLY who attacked us and go after those EXACT people, not just randomly bomb the **** out of a PLACE.



Anyone else feelin' me on this?

[Bernie]

Lean,



With all due respects, I have to disagree on your statements above.



What more proof does anyone need? Other countries, including the UN, have come to the same conclusions after investigating all the evidence. It's too bad that only our good friends in the UK had the balls to go in with us and actually do something about it. Let's not get cold feet now.



Let's say there wasn't any hard proof that Bin Laden helped bomb the World Trade Center. He and his henchmen were responsible for the two attacks on the US embassies in Africa and the USS Cole that killed hundeds of lives. For that alone he should be punished. If anything, we waited too long to snuff him.



Lean, perhaps I may be a little "touchy" on this issue since I worked a block away and commuted everday into the WTC for almost ten years and my sister and cousin both worked at the WTC and survived. My sister was trapped in the stairwell back in the 1993 bombing and couldn't get out for hours. It's not a nice feeling to almost lose a family memberr or not know there whereabouts for hours as what happened to me on 9-11.



The World Trade Center was MY place. A place that I sought refuge when it was raining outside, a place that I would meet my girlfriend or friends when we went out, a place where I would catch the PATH train home... That same train is buried under 10 feet of water and tons of debris that was MY place.



It's all gone along with 5,000 people. Some who I had met in my daily life.

It hits me right in my heart, and it's not pleasant.



I will not turn the other cheek and hopefully, neither will you or anyone else who values freedom.

[HustleBaby]

There was a report that Bin Laden may not have been responsible but that dosen't mean

that he should go unpunished for his previous attacks against the U.S embassies &

the USS COLE. This is the first time that I

ever heard of a country that drops bombs and

tons of food for its enemy. Also there is a

report on CNN and other news channels that

the "Anthrax Attacks" maybe be home-based from a militia group like Timothy McVeigh's

own.

What is really SCREWED UP is when Anthrax

entered the Capitol and other government

buildings, officials made it MANDATORY for

their dogs to be tested for the virus. Mean-

while postal workers who have been exposed

from day 1 were left UNPROTECTED WITHOUT ANY

EXAMINATIONS!! THE WHITE HOUSE IS MORE

CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELL-BEING OF DOGS THAN

BLACK & LATINO POSTAL WORKERS!!!

[Leanmean]

First, let me just say the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon are reprehensible to me and I firmly believe whoever did it should be punished. And, I can't begin to understand the personal pain of someone who was there or knew someone or lost someone in the attacks.



And yes folks, it has been shown that bin Laden was behind the other two attacks and Bernie, you're right, he should have been brought to justice a long time ago for that. If he indeed is behind the recent attacks, he and his accomplices should pay.



My point is that I think the bombings are not the way to find or kill him. I think our government is doing it as a symbolic measure for our benefit so we can say, "Look, they're doing SOMETHING." Surely they don't really think they can "smoke him out" by bombing every place he isn't?!! Just look at the "bombs away" cartoon Bernie posted. That says it all. We bomb, but we don't hit bin Laden. Isn't it bin Laden we want? Then go get him. Don't keep bombing the **** out of the dirt and dust and rocks and bullshit targets. Find him and get him! We are wasting our multi-million dollar ordnance on peasants!



Think of it this way however simplistic: If some guy murdered your mother, would you want the justice system to kill everyone in his neighborhood or find him and kill him?

[Bernie]

On 2001-10-31 12:31, Leanmean wrote:

Think of it this way however simplistic: If some guy murdered your mother, would you want the justice system to kill everyone in his neighborhood or find him and kill him?

Yes, you are right. However, if the whole neighborhood is hiding and providing aid to that individual, one has to get rid of them before one can get the main target.. Besides, we are also destroying terrorist training camps which is of the utmost importance.



US and British forces are learning more and more as time goes by. Let's let them do their job without the media and others asking for too much too soon.

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2001-10-31 12:53, Bernie wrote:



Yes, you are right. However, if the whole neighborhood is hiding and providing aid to that individual, one has to get rid of them before one can get the main target..

In all likelihood, that neighborhood doesn't have a choice in the matter. But aside from that... history has proven that the best way for a government to get support from its people is to attack it. You've got an excellent example of this right at home -- prior to September 11, the USA was completely divided from the previous election; now everyone is firmly behind Bush. Six months ago, who could've imagined seeing polls showing an 87% approval rate for a man who lost the popular vote?

Besides, we are also destroying terrorist training camps which is of the utmost importance.

Granted, but a camp is just that, and can be relocated and rebuilt on a moment's notice. Afghanistan's infrastructure has been so badly decimated by years of conflict that there isn't anything left that couldn't be rebuilt in a week. Furthermore, many of these camps are actually in Pakistan, yet nobody's dropping bombs there. Actually, since Pakistan had a major role in bringing the Taliban to power, shouldn't we be attacking them?

US and British forces are learning more and more as time goes by. Let's let them do their job without the media and others asking for too much too soon.

My concern is purely selfish -- I believe that the present action is only going to make things worse for us, not better.



I maintain that overthrowing the Taliban, although desireable, is practically impossible. There were signs before the conflict that the Taliban were deeply divided. Now they are firmly united. The attacks so far have not dented their morale -- if anything, they've boosted it. These are the most dangerous kind of people in the world, for they have nothing to lose... and furthermore, they truly believe that if they die fighting us, they will leave behind the misery and suffering that they have endured and go directly to an eternal paradise.



If we were attacked by people who resented us for our "interference" in their affairs, just think of how much more support they have now. If they hated us for "forcing our values" on them, think of how much they hate us now for dropping bombs on them. If the Soviet army -- an army that didn't give a **** about civilian casualties, didn't have to answer to public opinion, and didn't exactly have a reputation for being subtle -- couldn't win, how will we?



Ultimately, we can only win this conflict by changing their thinking. It is my belief that we are only reinforcing it.

[paul]

Well, this is where my argument in a prior thread about this suggested a more sophiscated approach in dealing with this and our future foreign policy is in due. This is inline with what Lean is getting at.

I am know of the impression that this is about oil and the attack was allowed to happen as a pretext to allow us to go in and remove the Taliban. Why am I making such a controversial assertion? First it's not unprecedented. The Gulf of Tolkin(sp) was used a pretext for the Johnson adminstration to escalate our involvement with Vietnam. The attacks on the US was dubious at best and the adminstration propagandized this. Johnson incidentally got high poll numbers following the event.

Next, there seems to be bits and pieces of info coming out that the CIA had suspicious info on Atta and perhaps a few others that they gave to the FBI that didn't appear to be followed up on. Also, along with other info was a report that the Phillipine gov't found plans for an attack on the WTC that they passed on to our gov't.

Finally and most importantly, I understand there are trillions of dollars of oil in that region and a pipeline is needed to go through Afghanistan. The Taliban government presented problems to this. This coupled with why Cheney refused to tell the GAO what went on in those meetings with oil execs a few months before this all broke out leads me to draw this conclusion.

I'm not saying that Bin-Laden is a nice guy. Being atheist, I know that him and the Taliban would take me out to that soccer field. However principally, I think this approach wrong. I believe Americans are being misled and at the same time our civil liberties are being eroded. What concerns me even more is the willingness of so many flag waving Americans to give up our freedoms the moment our apple cart is rocked.

So, back to you position Lean, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Bernie]

On 2001-10-31 13:31, Graham Start wrote:

Actually, since Pakistan had a major role in bringing the Taliban to power, shouldn't we be attacking them?

Unfortunately, we need their strategic airspace. It's the same when law enforcement has to make "deals" with unsavory characters for the overall success of an investigation. Let's face it: they have nuclear capabilities so it's wiser to at least strike an alliance despite the facts you brought up above.



Pakistan has much to gain by proving to the West that they are capable of change and becoming a part of the larger world community. We (the West) have the chance of showing that we are not against Muslims at large... The opportunity has been given to us and them and we all can potentially come out as winners.

There were signs before the conflict that the Taliban were deeply divided. Now they are firmly united. The attacks so far have not dented their morale -- if anything, they've boosted it.

A sense of unification or renewed vigour is a normal reaction. It's to be expected, but this may prove to be temporary as we continue destroying their forces.... This is something that will take time.

If we were attacked by people who resented us for our "interference" in their affairs, just think of how much more support they have now.

Interference? They bombed us! Damned if we do: damned if we don't.

Ultimately, we can only win this conflict by changing their thinking.

And that's by speaking the only language they know: force.

[Leanmean]

Wow, Paul! I also wondered if the attacks were "allowed to happen." I told a friend that a couple days afterward. I wondered that because there are so many things that go on behind the scenes that we don't know about. My first thoughts were the siphilis "research" projects on black men and the use of Agent Orange and its effect that the government lied about.



Now, you know I'm not one of those paranoid militia types. But something just didn't seem right. Of course, my mind reeled at the thought that our government could or would waste so much human life. Could our government do something so heinous as to kill several thousand of its own people -- over what? Oil? Hmmm.



Paul, we'd better be careful. Our fellow board members might think we've gone off the deep end. I vaguely recall your previous post right after the attacks and thought I remember folks hounding you over your opinion. Did they (we)?



IT'S JUST A THOUGHT FOLKS; A CURIOSITY ON MY PART; I JUST WONDERED, YA KNOW, WHAT IF...?!

[paul]

I hear ya Lean. I'm glad I'm not alone here. Trust me, I'm no militia type but I've seen our gov't involved in dirty deeds, the Tuskegee Experiment that you mentioned is one such example.

Yea, I took a little flak when the 9-11 incident was first up on the boards but hey, I enjoy a rigorous political debate.

With this new anti-terrorism law, you might be right about being careful



_________________

Savor each moment like it's your last.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paul on 2001-10-31 16:07 ]</font>

[guille]

Again, this is a very sensitive issue. Think where all started. The US support to Israel has to be re-examined. There are extremist in all countries and governments, and certainly there are extremist in the Israeli and US governments who were supporting the Taliban regime throughout all these years, and now, after September 11th, they want to replace it for another oppressive regime. Insane!!! Let's start helping the people and not the governments. Let's bring true democracy to the Middle East. Let's stop being so hypocrit and selfish. Let's not believe what all the jewish controlled media has to say and start looking for both sides of the story.

[Leanmean]

Guille,

Just exactly what do you mean by "Jewish controlled media"? You sound prejudiced. I am a Christian Buddhist and I do not appreciate your remarks.



Did you realize that Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the same God, the God of Jacob?



I'd like to know why you feel the way you do. Has every single person in a worldwide religion slighted you personally? I know a few Christians who are jerks but I don't condemn the whole religion. I know a few white people and black people who are jerks but I don't condemn all of them. Sometimes I am a jerk, but I hope people won't condemn all those who love disco because of my personality.



What's up with you?

[guille]

There's nothing wrong with me. I am not condemning any religion, I'm just telling you how things are. I watched the Emmy awards last night. 75 per cent of all producers, writers, actors, directors, etc. are from jewish backgrounds. It doesn't end there. The big majority of editors, publicists, publishers, and media moguls are jews. Interesting ahh!!!

I wasn't making any negative remarks about nobody's religion. I was pointing out the overwhelming, almost monopolistic, control of one group of people in the Media. Don't you think is kind of dangerous to have one group ruling what can be spread and what not? Remember jews were victimized mainly because of lies and misinformation during the Nazi era.

[fellow]

I have been lurking around this message board for sometime and seldom contribute but I sit here and laugh when I read the posts by Lean and Paul.

Yes, the US is not perfect and has made mistakes. But you know what? It is the best place I would like to be. I would lay down my life to secure freedom my family's and my way of life.

What is the matter with you? Thousand have lost thier lives! If those bastards could have killed 500k instead of 5k more they would have. There is no bargaining no diplomacy when it comes to terrorism. I was in the Air Force and went to 22 countries and had the chance to see my granddad on his death bed in Cuba in 96.My eyes were opened Lean and Paul you should travel abroad and maybe stay out of the US if you do not support it.



Also who cares about that syphilis BS and about jews controlling the media BS. We have other important things to worry about.

[Leanmean]

Uh, Fellow,



I never said I didn't like America. I love it here. I never said we shouldn't do something about the horrendous attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. I think bin Laden and his accomplices should pay for it and I said that.



My point was that I think Bush is bombing for "show" and I simply wondered if anyone else felt the same way. At the time it started, he didn't have anything else to try and he knew all eyes would be on him to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING.



With all the new information coming in about how we are working within the U.S. and with other countries to cut off the terrorists' supply of money, it makes me also wonder WHY our government didn't do something about it before. It's as if all of a sudden, the lights went on. If you can say that they didn't KNOW about it, that means our government is STUPID or NAIVE. Doesn't that concern you to think our government could be that blind? Or DID they know about it and let the terrorists' money flow continue for other reasons that they are not making the public aware of?



Another great thing about this country is that we can ask questions like the ones I am and not be put in jail or shot for it.



I am open to learning if someone cares to post an INTELLIGENT response that is hopefully free of emotional irration. It's not me against our government. I just wonder what's going on. Does anyone else wonder what's going on?!



Details here:

Daily News



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Leanmean on 2001-11-08 07:48 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bernie on 2001-11-08 08:52 ]</font>

[paul]

Look Fellow. As far as the syphillis issue is concerned, I care about it not just from a group point of view (I'm African-American) but from a historical perspective as well. The fact that you don't care is in a way indicative of your lack some critical thinking and reasoning when looking at issues that may establish historical precedents. I sense your mind has been shaped to behave like a soldier and molded when you were young and enlisted. You therefore may have a difficult time questioning what you've been spoon fed.

Ah...yes. I have travelled outside the US, indeed I was born in Jamaica though I grew up here from the age of 8. There are nice countries in the world where I could live and there are crappy places that suck. In fact there are states in this country where I find this to be true. So what. This sort of over the top patriotism is not my bag. Sorry, I dare say the emperor has no clothes. I therefore don't swallow the, either I'm with Bush and the republican party or I'm with the terrorist argument. This is simple minded in my view.

What you and many are arguing is treating the symptoms, in this case how do we respond to the violent acts of 9-11. That's not necessarily bad. However, what I and I suspect Lean are positing goes deeper as to a cause that brought out those actions. How did we get to this state and how can we minimize the possibility that we face this in the future. You speak like a good soldier. How do we kick ass now and break things. I like to believe some us take a broader view because guess what, the guys on the other side have the same view as you. Last time I checked, these guys haven't exactly rolled over yet with each new wave of larger strikes and daisy cutters.

If you can handle it, most of the secretly recorded LBJ tapes have been released. Check it out. In it he admits to knowing that the war in Vietnam was unwinable because going all out might have meant a nuclear exchange with Russia and/or China. Pulling out would have been political suicide for him because the republicans would have painted him as soft on communism. Things are not always as it seems.

Until you are willimg to see where we are right and where we are wrong, we will never get past this knee jerk neanderthal mindset that says we are the saints and they are the demons.

[fellow]

Paul,



I guess what set me off about your post was that you were under the impression that the attacks were allowed to happen, and it served

as a pretext to go after the Taliban for oil.

Hmm, this did not sound too intelligent to me.

[paul]

Well, I did give the impression that oil may be a reason why the military focus is on Afghanistan and it's Taliban regime as opposed to Bin Laden because I feel it's a distinct possibility. The fact that the hijackers murdered thousands and that that served as a pretext was something I also implied. I could be way off base but like I said, it's not unprecedented. Remember when daddy Bush floated out all sorts of dubious reasons why we should go to war against Iraq. Falsehoods like protecting democracy in Kuwait, stopping the rapes being done by Iraqis on Kuwaiti women, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the US is a marvelous country even with it's many shortcomings. I just believe that the constitution which serves as a framework for this nation should be adhered to. Not just some meaningless abstract thing that can be picked apart to serve some political objective.

[fellow]

Paul,

I guess we got off on the wrong foot.Too much emotion and testosterone.

The best thing I like about this country is that we can agree to disagree. I am not mad at anybody.... how could I be I'm currently at work listening to Santa Esmeralda:}

You have me pegged correctly. I was a good soldier and I do have the flag waving high. I do wave my fist and say "with US or the terrorist". I have to believe that we are doing the correct thing. Not only for me but for my kids as well- corny as it may seem... for their future. I choose to choose no other side of this conflict.

We all know that the US has its dark side, which country does not?

Paul, do you think that the US is currently "Too politcally correct" on world affairs? Or do you think that it is just a farce?

What if they hit us again and several thousand more innocent die. What are we? you and I to do? We can continue to hash out all the injustices that have occured in the US for days on end.But now, the conflict at hand is what we must turn our full attention on.Is the US using this tragedy for oil or some other diabolical plan? I know not. I choose to think not-

Thank you for your replies.

[paul]

On 2001-11-09 01:38, fellow wrote:

Paul,

I guess we got off on the wrong foot.Too much emotion and testosterone.

The best thing I like about this country is that we can agree to disagree. I am not mad at anybody.... how could I be I'm currently at work listening to Santa Esmeralda:}

You have me pegged correctly. I was a good soldier and I do have the flag waving high. I do wave my fist and say "with US or the terrorist". I have to believe that we are doing the correct thing. Not only for me but for my kids as well- corny as it may seem... for their future. I choose to choose no other side of this conflict.

We all know that the US has its dark side, which country does not?

Paul, do you think that the US is currently "Too politcally correct" on world affairs? Or do you think that it is just a farce?

What if they hit us again and several thousand more innocent die. What are we? you and I to do? We can continue to hash out all the injustices that have occured in the US for days on end.But now, the conflict at hand is what we must turn our full attention on.Is the US using this tragedy for oil or some other diabolical plan? I know not. I choose to think not-

Thank you for your replies.

You're right fellow. We did get off to the wrong foot. First I apologize for not greeting you, greetings. I don't recall ever seeing you post here.

When it comes to sex, politics and food, I get pretty passionate.

I don't know if this is a farce and I'm more concerned the wholesale war in Afghanistan will lead to an Israeli future. We hit them with overwhelming power, next week some guy walks into a mall with dynamite taped to his body and wipes out a few hundred innocent people. I just gotta believe the American people need all the facts and force our elected leaders to make ethical decisions. I still have this perhaps naive view that America is for the people and by the people.

I don't profess to know the answers but I gotta believe if we come to a reasonable and fair decision for all sides then we can minimize the risk of future terrorism.

[Fantomas]

Bomb the hell out of those camel jockeys. We have a right to defend our country and our policies. Leanmean, you sound to me like one of those apologetic "pacifists". Those Moslems would take someone like you and impale you in the blink of an eye.

[Disco77]

Europe, you have a lot to answer for.

America, you have a lot to answer for.

But in the end, we have all been duped.

Let the music play.

[Leanmean]

On 2001-11-14 07:19, Fantomas wrote:

Bomb the hell out of those camel jockeys. We have a right to defend our country and our policies. Leanmean, you sound to me like one of those apologetic "pacifists". Those Moslems would take someone like you and impale you in the blink of an eye.

I'm not sure how you would get the impression I am a pacifist although as a Christian Buddhist, I would have to say that THAT is what Jesus (the Christ) AND Sidartha Gautauma (the Buddha) taught! If I was a GOOD Christian Buddhist, I WOULD be a pacifist, but unfortunately, I am not ready to go to the wall for my spiritual beliefs. (Which pains me no end!) If I was a good Christian Buddhist -- YOU would be hounding me and accusing me for following my beliefs!



Now, rant finished, in all my posts on this topic I have said that bin Laden and his accomplices should be punished. Is that pacifist?



Do you call me a pacifist because I asked a question and wondered about something intriguing? Am I a pacifist because I was curious about what our government is really up to? If you would pull your head out of the sand, you might be able to actually READ what I really said in my previous posts, no disrespect intended Fantomas.

[Leanmean]

One other thing to note on this subject is that "current events" quickly become old news. When I first posted this topic, it was in October and it was something that had been on my mind since we started bombing.



As we can see in today's current events, the bombing has at least routed out the Taliban. My original point, in addition to wondering if the bombing was "symbolic," was that I did not think bombing was the way to find and punish Bin Laden. I thought we should have more high tech, covert intelligence, which of course, if it's covert, we will never know about. Bombing the **** out of the dirt and poverty stricken towns just seemed like a weird way to find one man!



Who knows how this thing will play out? Maybe we'll get lucky and a bomb will kill Bin Laden, but I doubt it.

[Fantomas]

I respect your beleifs, although, I do question the mentality of today. I'm a Christian and that's all I'm. Can you be a Christian and a Bhuddist at the same time?

Please explain to me.

Thanks.