What's Not Disco About New Wave Dance?

[sfbeary]

There have been plenty of comments from British forum members about not liking New Wave dance music. As an American, I find it perplexing. It's certainly true that many Europeans value American disco (particularly the soulful stuff) more than most Americans outside of NYC, but as an insider, I'm fairly familiar with why that is so. But judging from comments made in these forums, it seems that many English people don't appreciate what many people consider some of the best pre-house dance music made by Brits. (There are certainly more non-British Soft Cell fans, for example, than non-British Light of the World fans.) Could some of the more sane contributors explain this?

[SandraDee]

I don't know about me being sane but........as I have said a few times before on this forum sfb, the UK dance scene has since the 60s (it started with 'mods' & continued with the soul weekender/jazz-funk scene) been totally dominated & influenced by what i call the 'soul snobs' who only consider black music to be worthy of playing in clubs or on the radio etc.etc. Now I must point out that I absolutely love alot of black dance music but I also love poppy commercial dance music, eurodisco, synth, etc.etc. You've probably noticed that many UK members here often make derogatory comments about commercial white dance music, especially eurodisco which has always been very unfairly treated in the UK; ironic when you consider we are European (you will find that many UK residents do not regard the UK as part of Europe however & are even aggressively anti-Europe - very strange but true! :-? :o ). This attitude is very common in the UK & isn't helped by a media who only want to push certain types of music & a population who generally follow each other like sheep & have no minds of their own.
I don't want to come over as smug when I say I pride myself on being different to the majority of UK people by being totally open-minded regarding dance/disco music; I either like it or I don't regardless of what 'type' of music it is. I'll quite happily listen to Beautiful Bend, Norman Connors, The Flirts & ABC for example & glean the same enjoyment from each one. Hope that helps you with your query!

[QUINNY]

SF: I consisder myself to be sane so I'll have ago at explaining why I didn't like a lot of the New Romantic (New Wave) stuff.
BTW: It all depends which era you're specifically talking about. If Tainted Love is part of it, then read on.

By 1980, I'd been DJing for 8 years in disco clubs. The backbone of the playlists in all of these clubs was Funk, Soul and Disco. Since the early to mid '60s, UK disco clubs had a solid affinity with many different types of Black music from early Motown, to Ska and Bluebeat, to Soul, to Funk (especially James Brown, Stax, etc), many of which were relatively rare and only heard in discos/clubs.
In the disco years the Jazz Funk scene was incubated as an alternative scene that became hugely popular from '79 through to the early '80s. The average disco punter would have heard virtually nothing but Black American music that had a certain sound and a certain feel to it, going into 1980. Then the New Romantics started their assault on popular culture.
For the same reasons that Eurodisco was largely ignored and somewhat despised, New Romantics (New Wave) fell into that same category. From my own perspective, I didn't like most of it 'cos I despised being told what to play by pimply youths (mainly intellectuals and students) who suddenly latched onto the New Romantic sounds (as a late adjunct to Disco) and pestered the hell out of us DJs to play records from artists we simply didn't care about. If this was to be the future sound of Disco then Disco had taken a direction I just didn't like. The records were often poor quality both musically and sonically, they were totally mechanical sounding, they were too damned fast in most cases (hell 125 BPM was about as fast as I liked to go), they had no soul, no emotion, no swing, no guts. They were limp, they were faux camp (the UK club scene was still predominantly hetero and Gays had yet to break out in any big way) they were clever white boys making facile crap. Apart from that, we still had plenty of good American Disco/Funk and stuff to play. Disco didn't die for us in 1979.

By mid '82 the whole New Romantic scene was finished and the music had moved on. From then on, many of the records by Brit bands were beginning to sound much more real and were more readily accepted. They had a harder, funkier sound to them and many were re-inventing the rules and winning.

[sirius]

Dear Friends!
At the end of 1980 I finally moved to the NewRomantic-
Scene, because everyone said, that Disco was dead. So
I decided to hear this wonderful, hypnotic but very cold
sound of Human League, Visage, Gary Numan, Soft Cell,
Toyah, Ultravox, Heaven 17 and even Duran Duran.
At that time I was never into HI-NRG except Sylvester,
Divine or Patrick Cowley and I never felt like the typical
Gay. Being androgynus and wearing Make-Up was more
important than being straight or gay.
But NewWave is NOT!!! New Romantics...
I find there´s a lot of revivals in this movement called the
ROMOS. Just look into BOY´s Taboo or Freaklands with
endless links...
Steve Strange wrote a book called "Blitzed!" and Boy George´s Musical "Taboo" is a hit. And what about Leigh
Bowery, etc.???
At 1985 I finally became Gothic and listenend to Diamanda
Galas and watching HorrorMovies.
D.M.S.R. By SIRIUS & DARKTUNES...

[darrens]

I visit this web site because I like Disco Music. Disco to me is about lavish orchestration, wah-wah guitars, syndrums, 15 minute plus long suites, concepts, tongue-in-cheek themes, etc. etc. I love 70s disco from both Europe and the USA, from Costandinos to John Davis and many inbetween.

I don't consider the "new wave" music of the likes of Soft Cell, etc. to be part of the same genre as disco music. To me it's pop music with a danceable edge. It's not my preference.

Of course plenty of people in the UK did like Soft Cell (and probably still do), "Tainted Love" was the biggest selling single in 1981 here. But those people are probably not viewing this site.

At the same time in the UK, there was still a lot more disco-sounding music available (the likes of Imagination, Shalamar, Odyssey, etc.) that were also popular. I get the impression that wasn't the case in the US, and so Soft Cell was about as "disco" as it got at that time there. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong? :oops:

[buckaroo]

I'm a little younger than some of the posters around here I think, and although I recall a fair chunk of the mid to late '70s disco choonz, I remember a lot more about the early and mid eighties stuff. Brit groups like The Real Thing were doing well towards the end of the 1970s, but they still didn't get the major recognition that a US act would. There was also a sort of '60s Mod/Ska revival, with acts like The Specials, The Beat, Madness, and The Selector making their mark for a while, and the film Quadrophenia did well to capitalise on the movement at the time. The whole New Romantic thing seemed in retrospect like a load of wierdos stopping certain people from getting into their night clubs. Although a few of the groups were very successful, like Spandau Ballet, and Duran Duran some took things a little too seriously; Steve (Very) Strange take note. I reckon Adam and the Ants had the right idea.


V. Strange indeed!

When a number of British guys got together to form their own Funk bands, they were always negatively compared to their American counterparts. I did a recent topic about the Brit-funk scene a while back, have a butcher's: http://www.discomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7399 I was surprised by the...hostility, of some comments. :-?

I loved all the synth bands: Soft Cell, Depeche Mode, Yazoo etc. as I like to play with electronic toys too. At about that time as well, there was some great Dance and Disco around from the likes of Aurra, Change and others. Two years later on the horizon, was early Rap and the great but short-lived Electro music scene with Africa Bambaataa, Man Parrish, and Mantronix too. Fantastic music to my ears, and I'm sure certain older posters and purists will decry that period and say how foul the whole thing was. :lol:

Towards the mid '80s, quite a few UK acts were benefitting from the successes of their predecessors such as Junior, Linx, and David Grant. Great bands like Loose Ends emerged with their re-invention of the US soul sound, and were able to make a dent in the American and UK charts in the process.



1985 and '86 was a great time, and the British artists who were doing well are almost too many to mention...I'll bloody well try naming a few though :lol:
Princess
Jaki Graham
Total Contrast



Unfortunately, most of these past names are no longer at the forefront. But many are stilll working in the industry, writing and producing for other artists.

[markydefad]

Working at a record store in SF in the early 1980's in the Castro area--I lived for the new IMPORTS from the UK that arrrived every week in enormous quantities. Every week great new records in wonderful picture sleeves!!! :D :D :D

It was like the 2nd British Invasion after The Beatles , Rolling Stones, Kinks, Who, etc. from the mid-60's.

I thought that '60s music was terrific and this new wave/new romantic stuff was too.

While SF was producing all the Moby Dick & Megatone stuff (snore)...I wanted to hear the Eurythmics, Depeche Mode, Yaz, New Order, Talk Talk, etc. When I printed a play list form Trocadero from this era (1983)...several Brits expressed amazement at all the UK records on the list. :o

As I recall, a lot of us loved it. I thought the Brits were so creative & prolific...the good records just kept arriving in what seemed like endless waves. And I kept them all. :D

[Studio74]

For me,there´s no problem if i hear a Cerrone album,then a Duran Duran album,then a James Brown album,then a Earth Wind & Fire album,then a Derrick May album...to me Disco,New Wave,Funk,Electro,New Romantics,HI-NRG,etc,have a lot of good stuff that deserves to be heard...for me there´s no boundaries in music...it just has to be good (or at least good to my ears...)

[Voyage]

I agree with Studio 74...as long as it's good I like it :D

Voyage :P

[QUINNY]

...for me there´s no boundaries in music...it just has to be good (or at least good to my ears...)

Exactly. That goes for anyone and everyone.

SF Beary was asking us Brits why we were less accepting of New Wave than the Americans. In other words, for the uninitiated, why we didn't think it was good music!!!
Duh.

[NickNack]

Don't know about the Brits but I liked some, not alot, but some: Yaz, Eurythmics, some Talk Talk. I'm sure I disliked more of it: Blondie's "Call Me", Soft Cell, Gary Numan, Duran Duran (yuck!), Ultravox, Selector, and on it goes. To me, this was just rock music being forced on me because "disco was dead". I refused to play most of this and no one seemed to miss it.

BTW, I just listened to "Tainted Love" by Gloria Jones. Now I see why Soft Cell didn't impress me. Gloria's original didn't/doesn't rock me, either. :roll:

[Mixmachine]

Around ’81 and ’82 I used to work in a club that locally introduced ‘New wave' Monday Nights, local clubs hardly ever opened on Monday Nights, but this was a complete success that other clubs try to copy, it was later expanded to include Tuesday Nights, lines formed around the corner and the place was jumping like on a weekend night. We didn’t play ‘Wave’ all night long though, it was mixed in ‘sets’ sandwiched along with all the light Funk music and others sounds available in that period to please those not into ‘Wave' 100%, but New wave is what started this phenomenon rolling in this club on this nights. Here are some of the Bands/Groups popular at the time in this club.

Romantics, Devo, Cars, Stones, Altered Images, Flock of Seagulls, Billy Idol, Simple Minds, UFO, Flying Lizards, Talking Heads, B52, Brian Ferry, U2, Pretenders, The Call, Duran Duran, Soft Cell and so many others obscure lesser known bands I can’t remember..

[SandraDee]

I'm sure I disliked more of it: Blondie's "Call Me"

This wasn't British Nicky; it was an American group produced by a German/Italian guy.

[NickNack]

I'm sure I disliked more of it: Blondie's "Call Me"

This wasn't British Nicky; it was an American group produced by a German/Italian guy.

I know --- but wasn't it 'new wave'? I thought so, despite Giorgio Moroder.

[billywho]

I visit this web site because I like Disco Music. Disco to me is about lavish orchestration, wah-wah guitars, syndrums, 15 minute plus long suites, concepts, tongue-in-cheek themes, etc. etc. I love 70s disco from both Europe and the USA, from Costandinos to John Davis and many inbetween.

I don't consider the "new wave" music of the likes of Soft Cell, etc. to be part of the same genre as disco music. To me it's pop music with a danceable edge. It's not my preference.

Of course plenty of people in the UK did like Soft Cell (and probably still do), "Tainted Love" was the biggest selling single in 1981 here. But those people are probably not viewing this site.

At the same time in the UK, there was still a lot more disco-sounding music available (the likes of Imagination, Shalamar, Odyssey, etc.) that were also popular. I get the impression that wasn't the case in the US, and so Soft Cell was about as "disco" as it got at that time there. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong? :oops:

I totally agree with this. In general (with the exception of a few songs) I didn't really enjoy music produced by the likes of Soft Cell, Ultravox, Human League, etc. But that's because it wasn't disco. You can't compare it with the Costandinos-type music of the 70s, and you can't compare it with the disco funk of the early 80s. How close is, say, "Tainted Love" to Wish's "Nice And Soft" (both from 1981)? They are miles apart - an entirely different genre.

[buckaroo]

Aaaah...But, as I tried to point out (somewhat vaguely :roll: ) in my previous post, disco musicians did eventually embrace the technology used by those synth pop bands. "Nice and Soft" one my alltime faves, is a good example of this.

...But judging from comments made in these forums, it seems that many English people don't appreciate what many people consider some of the best pre-house dance music made by Brits. (There are certainly more non-British Soft Cell fans, for example, than non-British Light of the World fans.) Could some of the more sane contributors explain this?

I don't think that's correct. Espesh, as quite a few of them like Howard Jones and Thomas Dolby, are doing sell-out 'oldies' tours around Britain. As another post mentioned "Tainted Love" was the highest selling single of '81 in the UK. The Human League reached number one in the charts during December that year also, and in '82 groups like Heaven 17, Depeche Mode, and Ultravox continued to have hits, even into the mid '80s.
Many of the early rappers, electro and House producers such as Arthur Baker and Jaimie Principle, appeared in a brilliant TV doc called Pump Up The Volume talking about the early days when they were heavily influenced by the UK bands.

Would Kim Wilde be considered New Wave?

[SandraDee]

Would Kim Wilde be considered New Wave?

Yes, her early stuff like 'Kids In America' was definitely new wave but her later stuff like 'You Came' was more Euro-pop/hi-nrg I'd say.

[billywho]

Aaaah...But, as I tried to point out (somewhat vaguely :roll: ) in my previous post, disco musicians did eventually embrace the technology used by those synth pop bands. "Nice and Soft" one my alltime faves, is a good example of this.

Maybe they did, but I'm not sure that makes synth-pop disco. (I realise you probably haven't claimed this, but forgive me 'cos I'm losing track of what the thread subject is!)

I can go into a club and, if "Tainted Love" is played, I can get on my feet and have a dance. I'd even almost enjoy the tune... If I play it at home it would do absolutely nothing for me. However, if I went into a club and "Nice And Soft" (or Change's "Hold Tight", or Cheryl Lynn's "Shake It Up Tonight", to name a couple more from '81) was played, I'd think I was in heaven. And playing it at home I'd almost reach the same state. That to me is the difference between disco and synth-pop.

[Videoskooter]

Yeah-I totally agree with this last entry. As I grew up during the Disco-era I also experienced the first New Wave-records and to me that was a different style. In fact when New Wave and New Romantics took over the dance scene I felt the "magic" was gone. To me it didn't have the warmth and the joy of the real (?) disco. And even now when I play my old discorecords I really get into the mood and I can't have this feeling when I hear new wave. Like here in Belgium: Two Man Sound's "Que tal America" is vintage disco and Telex "Moskow Diskow" is new-wave. Both are Belgian danceproducts but oh so different. But Telex is considered as a great influence on Chicago House which is considered as the new Disco. So? Must be a thin line!

[sirius]

Dear Videoskooter!
TELEX"Moskow Diskow" is not New Wave.It´s NewWave-
Disco like some trax of Lene Lovich, Ian Dury, Marianne
Faithful, Buggles, M. or Gina X. That was typical late 1979
and has nothing to do with the NewWave or NewRomantics
Stuff in the early 80ies.
If you know only "Tainted Love" by Soft Cell, then sorry
for you all. Because they had fantastic dance-tracks...
just listen to "Torch", "Bedsitter" or "Memorabilia".
I know, there´s a big revival-thing in Europe(esp.Germany)
with all that ElectroClashStuff, but be for sure, that Disco
is my greatest Love!
Cosmic Love & Kisses From SIRIUS & DARKTUNES...

[Videoskooter]

Sirius! You're right, Telex was not a good example. Like you say it's more cross-over. Nacht und Nebel's "Beats of love" is a better example of Belgian new-wave. And I love Ian Dury's "Reasons to be cheerful part III" but in the early Eighties we all danced here to DAF and Fad Gadget and PIL and the point I wanted to make is that those rhythms didn't have the same effect on me as stuff from Gamble and Huff or Cerrone or DC La Rue. Even when you listen to the well-known Mutant Disco-compilation you here another vibe (Material, Garçons) and when that record came out I felt something was changing. And when I have to choose between a vintage new-wave mix and Larry Levan's "Live at the Paradise Garage", I'm afraid the decision would not take one second! You can dance to both but the second one will get me in heaven.

[nrgbeat]

What's the difference between New Wave and New Romantic?

[buckaroo]

...I can go into a club and, if "Tainted Love" is played, I can get on my feet and have a dance. I'd even almost enjoy the tune... If I play it at home it would do absolutely nothing for me. However, if I went into a club and "Nice And Soft" (or Change's "Hold Tight", or Cheryl Lynn's "Shake It Up Tonight", to name a couple more from '81) was played, I'd think I was in heaven...

I'd probably think the same way about hearing Heaven 17's "Crushed by the Wheels of Industry" in a club. As it's not Disco. Or Colin Blunstone & Dave Stewart's version of "What Becomes of the Brokenhearted", as it's a ballad. And to answer another post, (un)fortunately a lot of the early New Wave synth bands, seemed to be manic depressives. With their lyrics about urban decay and such topics: early Human League, Gary Numan etc. They all used synths very well mind.

What's the difference between New Wave and New Romantic?

IMHO, the difference is that many of the NR groups emerged from what seemed to be a creation of the London night club scene at the time. Where punters dressed in outragous sometimes home-made fashions, and could listen to the likes of David Bowie inter-mixed with '70s soul music. The NW artists like The Police, Elvis Costello and Talking Heads, arose from the ashes of Punk and produced a similar sound with vibrant clashing guitar chords :P. Even members from some of these bands splintered off into the world of Dancable music:

Talking Heads > Tom Tom Club
Joy Division > New Order > Electronic
Voltaire > Ultravox

What about the Eurhythmics? They were a post-punk band who became really Dance-y :lol: .

[Studio74]

People that i know that went clubbing here in Portugal during the late 70s/early 80s told me that here there wasn´t no backlash over the Disco stuff, and it wasn´t strange to hear Chic,Gloria Gaynor,Donna Summer,James Brown.Bee Gees,Blondie,The Police,Duran Duran,Spandau Ballett,Kraftwerk,Depeche Mode,Soft Cell,Led Zeppellin,AC DC all in the same night in the same place.I wish that the people that go out at night today would be so ecletic as his parents/grandparents were...there´s exceptions like Lux of course,where we can hear a lot of different styles,deppending of course of the invited DJ...

[sirius]

Dear Friends!
New Romantics is a movement from Punk and was to
understand as a beautiful answer to PunkSound. It can
be described as a mixture between electronic disco, heroic
refrains and sometimes very strange lyrics. Certainly it has
it roots also in the GlamRockEra like David Bowie. The
message was wearing make-up, looking androgynus or
heroic... a mixture between middle-age and science-fiction.
It began about 1978 at the Blitz, then moved to Camden
Palace or Club For Heroes. Typical artists: Visage, Soft
Cell, Heaven 17, Human League, Toyah, A Flock Of Seagulls,
Gary Numan(although he hated the Blitz-Kids), Duran
Duran, Spandau Ballet, Ultravox...Boy George was a typical Blitz-Kid and went Culture Club. The absolute cult-figure was Leigh Bowery...The message was "Be Proud, Be Loud,
Be Heard" or "You Are A Programme".
New Wave is another movement from Punk, but more
rock-orientated. At the fall of 1979 everything was New
Wave using guitars, like Police, Talking Heads, Clash,
Elvis Costello(oh how boring!), Kim Wilde(oh how poppy!),
even The Knack was called New Wave(and I hated this
terrible "My Sharona" so very much!). Some good artists
like Flying Lizards or Devo were faves of mine...
The third thing was called NDW=NeueDeutscheWelle with
artists like DAF, Falco, Nena, Joachim Witt, Fehlfarben,
Spliff, Ideal, Trio, a.m.o. This was nothing than a kind of
german sung New Wave, but some artists were really
heavy into experimenting synthesizers...I think there was
a thin line between dada-istic art and stupidity...
D.M.S.R. By SIRIUS & DARKTUNES...