Gay Marriage

[QUINNY]

OK --- this is what I'm getting at. Why do you think there is a 'rampant rise' in the gay population from then to now? Why do you think the quoted percentages would be vastly different?

Nicky:
With the increasing openess of both Gay relationships and Gayness itself, how couldn't I think that there has been a rampant rise in the Gay population? Gayness has grown from something I was virtually unaware of to what it is today, where I am exposed to Gay culture and issues on a regular basis. OK that's an emotional response and I realise that, but you have to accept that any human being will have an emotional response to any given situation, especially when you guys collectively go out of your way to make me aware of your existence by dominating the media both with a physical presence and militant lobbying, so that Gay issues are regularly pushed onto the agenda. I may be very unkind in thinking this, but I get the impression that there is currently strong, positive discrimination in favour of Gays on British TV. As an example, I'm getting rather fed up with Gay presenters of house makeover shows forever extolling the virtues of pink (read overtly Gay decoration and surprisingly pink, too), although some of their creations are appealing, if sometimes less than practical. Perhaps others might want to comment?

In a way, all of this Gay awareness and Gay Pride may have backfired, because there is a fine line between enlightening people and pissing them off with excessive overexposure. I personally hope that all Gay issues can be quickly resolved and we can move on, together.

Also I think there may be something in the water (oestrogen) that is making us men less gender specific. It's certainly had its way with fish. Whether this leads to androgyny or homosexuality has yet to be fully understood. My hunch is that men with less dominant male hormones will choose homosexuality over celebacy.

So far as the historical percentages are concerned, I'm afraid that this is the proverbial $64,000 question. Let's just say that popularity leads to even more popularity. Acceptance leads to more acceptance. It would be unlikely that there are the same percentage of Gays now as there were in the recent past, if we believe that social factors do have some say in how people turn out. If you only believe that Gays are born that way, maybe the argument is less compelling. Obviously, I believe that social factors can play a part both in suppressing and promoting homosexuality, although I do feel that whether or not one is homosexual is mostly down to genes. I guess the point is that adolescents are very impressionable and it is more than feasible that social conditioning and social acceptance of Gays,could make them choose a particular sexual orientation. For every latent Gay that will now openly come out, there are possibly other less obviously Gay individuals who'll will also choose that course, solely due to peer pressure or social acceptance. To deny the possibility would appear to me, to be rather blinkered. And so that would mean there are more Gays now, than in the past.

[sirius]

Dear Quinny!
Some statements are making me a bit angry, because neither education nor the hormone-status is responsible
for being gay. Indeed it sounds very conservative...
I don´t think that Harvey Milk or some of the Village People
had less testosterone than you. What are some people
afraid off??? Being feminine or gay or straight?
About backlash in the gay movement...the society "accepts"
Gays only if there were like in the circus or in a tragic way.
That´s all cliché. That´s the reason why gay-marriage is
so important nowadays...they want to be taken serious.
What do You think about adopting children by gays...
Cosmic Love & Kisses From SIRIUS & DARKTUNES...

[QUINNY]

Dear Sirius:
Please enlighten me as to what makes people Gay. So far as I can tell, the jury is still out on this and no-one has the absolute answer. I personally believe in genetics, but even that is blasted by scientific research on identical twins.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't look at Gays as some circus act or freak show. I'm way past whether or not I should accept Gays and under which conditions. I thought that round of arguments happened years ago.
IMO: Wanting Gay marriage is not likely to get anyone to take you more seriously. Maybe quite the opposite, actually.

[paul]

Hey Quinny.
I'm inclined to believe a genetic reason is why some people are gay. That however doesn't matter in my view. Even if people choose to be gay, they should be treated equally under the law. I can't speak for gays but here is my take speaking as a fellow human being. I say what's more important to me is that what I'm doing is fair and right for me and those who are immediately affected by my decisions. What the rest of the world thinks is something beyond most of our control.

[NickNack]

Nicky:
With the increasing openess of both Gay relationships and Gayness itself, how couldn't I think that there has been a rampant rise in the Gay population?
Gayness has grown from something I was virtually unaware of to what it is today, where I am exposed to Gay culture and issues on a regular basis.

That observation doesn't signal a rampant rise in anything to me. It shows increased visibility and, judging by your later comments, your distaste or dissatisfaction with it.

OK that's an emotional response and I realise that, but you have to accept that any human being will have an emotional response to any given situation, especially when you guys collectively go out of your way to make me aware of your existence by dominating the media both with a physical presence and militant lobbying, so that Gay issues are regularly pushed onto the agenda. I may be very unkind in thinking this, but I get the impression that there is currently strong, positive discrimination in favour of Gays on British TV. As an example, I'm getting rather fed up with Gay presenters of house makeover shows forever extolling the virtues of pink (read overtly Gay decoration and surprisingly pink, too), although some of their creations are appealing, if sometimes less than practical. Perhaps others might want to comment?

Well, all I will say is by your tone you're feeling beat-over-the-head with gay issues. I guess you'll have to deal.

In a way, all of this Gay awareness and Gay Pride may have backfired, because there is a fine line between enlightening people and pissing them off with excessive overexposure. I personally hope that all Gay issues can be quickly resolved and we can move on, together.

I don't have a clue what's going on in British TV or media. What we did learn over here is being quiet = being second class. As a Black man, I can be in peoples' faces 24/7 without doing a thing. This gives them pause and affects behavior. Why? Because they realize some of their views may piss me or others off. They'll wait til all their KKK buddies are in a meet before raising hell.

As a gay, I have to keep reminding people every day that we're out here. Why? Because when I don't, they sit around the corporate lunch table and tell 'faggot' jokes. They yell obscenities as they drive by. They consider gays one step above (or below) pedophiles. Then they remember they've been working with me for 15+ years. They don't have to "love" me, but my visibility changes their attitude. Sometimes for the better.

Also I think there may be something in the water (oestrogen) that is making us men less gender specific. It's certainly had its way with fish. Whether this leads to androgyny or homosexuality has yet to be fully understood. My hunch is that men with less dominant male hormones will choose homosexuality over celebacy.

Oh, I think your about due for a check up yourself :D . This is so out of the ballpark. And who said homosexuality is 'chosen'?

So far as the historical percentages are concerned, I'm afraid that this is the proverbial $64,000 question. Let's just say that popularity leads to even more popularity. Acceptance leads to more acceptance. It would be unlikely that there are the same percentage of Gays now as there were in the recent past, if we believe that social factors do have some say in how people turn out. If you only believe that Gays are born that way, maybe the argument is less compelling.

Thank you. Your agument doesn't compel me at all. I know of no one, and I mean no one (and I've met hundreds, Quinny) who has decided to 'become gay' because it's popular or being more accepted by society. How preposterous. That's like a White man wanting to be Black because it's suddenly cool and hip. Yeah, let me see you all run to the permanent tanning salons. :)

Obviously, I believe that social factors can play a part both in suppressing and promoting homosexuality, although I do feel that whether or not one is homosexual is mostly down to genes. I guess the point is that adolescents are very impressionable and it is more than feasible that social conditioning and social acceptance of Gays,could make them choose a particular sexual orientation. For every latent Gay that will now openly come out, there are possibly other less obviously Gay individuals who'll will also choose that course, solely due to peer pressure or social acceptance. To deny the possibility would appear to me, to be rather blinkered. And so that would mean there are more Gays now, than in the past.

Sorry, this doesn't work. All it says to me is that you have some fears which need looking into. You're back to that scare tactic of 'gays converting children', and now saying it'll be easier because of social acceptance. Let me clue you in: WHOEVER CAME UP WITH THE EXPRESSION 'SEXUAL PREFERENCE' IS A MORON. I prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate. I prefer Cadillacs over Buicks. I prefer euro-disco over rap. I prefer tall men to short but I DO NOT PREFER men over women. Do you get it? You come back here and tell me that one day you might suck some dick because it's socially acceptable and I'll start believing in sexual preferences. Pedophelia and Homosexuality are not the same and the fact that you distress yourself over the possibility of the 'conversion of adolescent minds' by Gays is very telling.

[QUINNY]

NickNack: I don't know where paedophilia comes into all of this. I was not inferring any such thing. You must accept that Gays project as strong an iconic presence as any other group, to certain people. Those people might choose to experiment and find out they feel OK about it. It's not an impossible scenario, is it?
Look at it this way. The fact that Gays are becoming more acceptable, means that it is easier for future generations to allude to be Gay, because they will meet less and less resistance. For those who are insecure about their sexuality, the decision whether or not one is Gay is made easier, because there are diminishing repercussions as time goes by. This doesn't mean they choose it per se, it means that their decision to live a Gay life is made easier. Apparently, around 80% of Gays have changed their sexulaity at least once. Now, years ago when it was taboo to be Gay, I would have imagined that most stuck to a false hetero life, just to avoid all the hassle and maybe a percentage of those actually became totally hetero after a while (having been Gay first). Now, they will just choose to be Gay and not worry about it so much.

BTW: By your observation that being quiet means being second class that means that 79% (84%, whatever) of the population IS second class. WE, the people, have been downtroden since time in memorial. Perhaps now you can see why the average Joe might not give you a pat on the back? You're just pushing up in the queue, trying to put yourselves ahead of the rest of us.

I don't need to deal with anything, except my own struggles with discrimination, inequality and the like.

Are you telling me that Gays never joke about straights, call them names or have any derogatory names for them? I find that hard to believe.

[NickNack]

NickNack: I don't know where paedophilia comes into all of this. I was not inferring any such thing.

You might be right. I took your 'social conditioning', 'impressionable adolescent choosing gay' a little too far. Hot button topic for me.

You must accept that Gays project as strong an iconic presence as any other group, to certain people. Those people might choose to experiment and find out they feel OK about it. It's not an impossible scenario, is it?

I don't know. You would have to tell me if it's a possible scenario. You talk as if you believe that if someone experiments with homosexuality, and then likes what they feel, then they might 'choose' to be gay. It may work that way in your mind, but not for me. If I went out and had sex with a woman every night this week, it would not make me straight. I can't choose to be straight. I can peform the heterosexual act, but I will never be heterosexual. There's a huge difference here.

Look at it this way. The fact that Gays are becoming more acceptable, means that it is easier for future generations to allude to be Gay, because they will meet less and less resistance. For those who are insecure about their sexuality, the decision whether or not one is Gay is made easier, because there are diminishing repercussions as time goes by. This doesn't mean they choose it per se, it means that their decision to live a Gay life is made easier.

I'm sorry. I can't buy your 'pick-and-choose' assumptions just because the lifestyle becomes more acceptable. My living a 'gay life' doesn't just mean having sex with men. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure what the hell it means, other than getting up everyday and trying to survive this crazy world. Isn't that what straight people do?

Apparently, around 80% of Gays have changed their sexulaity at least once. Now, years ago when it was taboo to be Gay, I would have imagined that most stuck to a false hetero life, just to avoid all the hassle and maybe a percentage of those actually became totally hetero after a while (having been Gay first). Now, they will just choose to be Gay and not worry about it so much.

I think this is B.S. You can't change your sexuality, like you can't change your skin color. ONLY THE ACT YOU PERFORM CAN BE CHANGED. Living as a 'gay' or 'heterosexual' doesn't make you one or the other. It just the way you're perceived by others.

BTW: By your observation that being quiet means being second class that means that 79% (84%, whatever) of the population IS second class. WE, the people, have been downtroden since time in memorial. Perhaps now you can see why the average Joe might not give you a pat on the back? You're just pushing up in the queue, trying to put yourselves ahead of the rest of us.

Not ahead of the 'rest of us', just equal too. That's what you and 'the average Joe' seem to be missing.

Are you telling me that Gays never joke about straights, call them names or have any derogatory names for them? I find that hard to believe.

Never said the didn't. Doesn't make it right.

[Sami M]

I find it offending to state that exposure of gays and gay related things would couse people to become gays.

Many straight people seem to think that one can somehow choose not to be gay. That is a very crucial mistake. For heaven's sake think about yourself! Is it possible for a totally straight guy to stop his interest in women once and for all, so that seeing happy faces, tempting curves, floppy hair etc. would couse no effect at all!

Increased exposure of gay matters in media etc. may couse rise in homosexual behaviour, but people have allways experimented. Experiment doesn't make a gay. One can be gay without never having a homosexual act.

[SandraDee]

There is a very good reason Quinny why there didn't seem to be many gays about when you were younger - being gay was actually illegal in the UK before 1967 so most gay men before that time were very closeted & most married & had kids so as not to attract the interest of the police or black-mailers. There were no positive gay role models in those days so most young people stayed firmly closeted & very unhappy. Is it any wonder that once gays started to get a bit of acceptance they weren't gonna stay quiet & ashamed of who they were any more? Centuries of persecution & the fact that most gay & important historical figures were virtually written out of the history books e.g.Alexander The Great, Tchaikovsky, Hans Christian Anderson, King Edward II, Sir Francis Bacon, Jean Cocteau, Alan Turing & Ivor Novello to name just a handful.

We are fortunate in our current climate that people, not just gays, can at last express their individuality for the first time in centuries. It is so sad & petty of people like Quinny who begrudge people who are different this basic right. Some people are so mean & lacking in compassion aren't they? :cry: (religion has alot to answer for; gays were actually quite accepted before Christianity came along.)

[Nano]

Ah, this is tough! My rationale is with Nicky and my heart is with Q.
It's obvious by reading this topic that the gay people writing are right and Quinny is wrong. This may sound PC but it's the truth (we have to understand others when they make sense and correct some of our attitudes and misbehavior). That's a way to make our society better.
On the other hand, I'm a hetero and I understand why Quinny makes these comments. However brilliant he can be making theories or justifying his own, this time he's acting out of fears most heteros (me included) still have towards gay people. This isn't rationale, it's just feelings and beliefs (and prejudices, why not) we all have and share in our everyday chatter and also in our gay jokes:

1) In my country there's a common saying who goes: "Macho is the one who tasted it and did not like it". This tend to be segued with a "that's why I taste it every week, so I'm sure I'm still macho" (that's the joke). What I mean is that every hetero fears that if he tastes it, he might end liking it. Another common saying goes: "I don't know of any gay man that returned (to being straight)" (this could be discussed, of course). Remember I'm talking about beliefs and not rationale thinking. You can blame our parents, schools or the church for this if you want.
My take on this (and many people of my age think the same) is that we all are bisexual; some guys try both ends and some not. Some like one end more than the other. And many would be happy going both ways, if they got the courage to try.

2) The other think at stake here is that, probably, Quinny is already a father. And there's no hetero father in Earth wanting his son to be gay. No one admits it (it's so unPC); but it's still true. Maybe it has something to do with a father seeing himself on his children, or maybe it's about the surviving of the human race... I don't know.
That's why the pedophile matter is still en vogue: we tend to see it like the vampyre myth, with a corrupted adult (the vampyre) converting an innoncent child to the cult. The child is perverted to become another vampyre, and so on and so on. The fact that the vampyre myth was a metaphor for teenage sexuality in the UK during the Victorian Era, is very telling.
But I can't blame Q for thinking like that (even as he will probably deny all this). I feel like that too; I can't help it. Figuring a doomed day in which my son (I'm not yet a father) would tell me the sad news, I guess I would try to be comprehensive, tolerant, and caring. But you know sometimes you can't change your heart with a book, no matter how right we know that book can be. (And I guess today's young gay people feel this in the relationship with their families.)

Well... hope this helps and I'm not lynched. :roll:

[SandraDee]

Nano, what does it really matter if your son turned out gay as long as he was kind, intelligent, healthy & happy? I've never understood why people are so scared of sexuality. One of the most common criticisms thrown at homosexuality in the UK is that it's unnatural; this is so silly because a person's sexuality is so very natural; it's part of their personalty & biological make-up. There are so many other things that people do today that truly are 'unnatural' (e.g. using computers or wearing clothes)but nobody ever criticizes them; hope this demonstrates the irrational fear that people have of sexuality, not just homo but all other aspects too. Humans are scared of nature; I s'pose it's centuries of 'civilization' that have done this. Blimey, we're getting heavy aren't we ?!

[QUINNY]

Nicky: I feel we've reached a certain level of understnding.

Nano: You're the only other straight guy who's bothered to add anything much to this debate. That's rather telling isn't it. The fact that you and I post here (and have done for a considerable time) at DiscoMusic, where most of the other postees are often overtly Gay, shows far more acceptance of Gays by us than most heteros would be willing to show. To me, that would show that I have no real problem and yet what happens.......?


Quite frankly I'm amazed at the hostility and the sheer level of misunderstanding that's been shown towards my posts by some. Could it be some sort of red mist descending?


I didn't mention paedophillia and never alluded to it. My point is that people of a certain age are impressionable, willing to take risks and experiment and often confused of their sexuality. Their having a more positive Gay environment is obviously going to have some kind of effect, that will be increasingly self fulfilling. I didn't think anyone could possibly argue with that. That's the way most things work and if this were to happen with regard to Homosexuality, it must be obvious that at some point the world as we know it WOULD be in dire straights because of population decline. For Gays to deny this seems a tad ridiculous. Are they going to suddenly go straight?

Now, Steely talked about homosexuality being natural and normal. Please Steely, don't insult us. If it's so natural and normal, why are humans just about the only animals that practice it over an adult lifetime? There are certain acts of homosexuality among some apes, but these are not a life option for them. Just acts of dominance or spurious acts of quick sex.
I'm sorry if this hits a nerve, but I came to my own conclusion years ago that the only reason I'm here on this earth is to procreate the next generation of human race. In all terms of reference, whether or not I have a good life or a crappy one, whether or not I become prime minister/president or a tramp, I have 12 holidays a year or none, drive a Rolls Royce or a Toyota doesn't matter one iota. My 70 years on this earth won't mean a thing unless I father part the next generation and moreover, if I do a good job of parenting and ensure that they grow up to continue the process. It's really that simple. I'm not being at all homophobic, but just being a rational thinking animal. Yes, if I were Gay I'm certain I'd rationalise my existence some other way, but I'm not Gay, I don't know what it's like to be Gay, soooooo........................................... ..............................
So Steely, yes I agree. On one level what would it matter if someone's offspring turns out Gay? But in the overall scheme of things it matters a whole lot. If everything turned Gay tomorrow (test tubes excluded), all animal life would be extinct within 70 years at the latest. Think on, please.

[SandraDee]

I'm so pleased you feel there's some reason for your existence Quinny, cos it's not clear to me. There are some forms of life like sea-horses that are all one sex & there's no need for sexuality so if 'everything turned gay' & only sea-horses were left wouldn't it be a wonderful peaceful, beautiful world without horrible humans polluting everything & starting wars everywhere with their religions & 'beliefs' & fears. The world was around for zillions of years before we came along & I'm sure it would merrily continue without us. The arrogance of man-kind never ceases to amaze me. We are not important to the continuation of this planet; get over it! :evil: :oops: (Now you think on)

[SandraDee]

shows far more acceptance of Gays by us than most heteros would be willing to show.

So nice of you to tolerate us dreadful gays. I've shown acceptance to straights all my life but I don't expect a pat on the back from anyone.

[sirius]

Dear Friends!
Now we have all clichés together:
Pedophilia is not a homosexual theme, and most children
are sexually assaulted by their fathers. It doesn´t matter
if the child is male or female!!!
Some very clever psychologists assume, that straight
men are afraid of homosexuality because of their own
homosexuality. But they really love lesbian scenes in their
dreams...
Homosexuality is something "dangerous", because most
of the men don´t want to be penetrated. So I think that
in this society also the role of a WOMAN is not better
nowadays.
There is nothing to be afraid of...take away these infernal
fears of the human race!!!
I´ve always hated jokes about minorities, and I´ve never
made jokes about heteros.
The truth is that most of my partners were straight or
bisexual and nowadays married and have children.
Let´s end up with Sigmund Freud...he believed, that every
(wo)man is born as bisexual.
But this society rules with conservativism and religious
fundamentalism...the result is war instead sexual liberation.
I think most men are mentally and also physically impotent!
It seems that most of men(straight and gay) have no fun
with sex...it´s only a question about reputation, aggressi-
vity and shooting their loads because of natural instinct.
Cosmic Love & Kisses From SIRIUS & DARKTUNES...