Beat mixing with live drummers question

[nrgbeat]

I apologize if this confuses anyone.

Suppose you have a song that starts out at 120 bpm but increases to 124 by the end of the song. The song you are mixing into is 125 bpm but you have to lower it to 124 to make the mix.

My question is how do you know how far to adjust the pitch and how can you get the song in sync if the beat doesn't change until the end of the song?

[The Lord of Flatbush]

On 2002-05-12 21:22, nrgbeat wrote:
I apologize if this confuses anyone.

Suppose you have a song that starts out at 120 bpm but increases to 124 by the end of the song. The song you are mixing into is 125 bpm but you have to lower it to 124 to make the mix.

My question is how do you know how far to adjust the pitch and how can you get the song in sync if the beat doesn't change until the end of the song?

You don't have to adjust the pitch too much.

Adjust the pitch -1/2 slower than prescribed. Unless you perform "Slam" mix or cut, then you can leave the pitch as is.

[johnceglia]

This is one of the main reasons I believe mixing 70's Disco is more difficult than any other genre` of dance music. In some cases you had drummers going in opposite directions and back and forth. One suggestion is to try it at home before you do it for an audience. Using the example given by nrgbeat, measure the pitch differential trying as much as possible to use whole precentages. After you mix into the record that speeds up to 125 at the end of the song from 124, try to get it to a whole number, -1% or -2% or whatever. Then it should be easy for you to calculate the difference. Try to find the neatest spot to make your move and try not to make a long production number out of it.
If any of you have this record, just for fun, try mixing the intro of the 12" of "Night Rider" by Venus Dodson over something steady and let me know what you think. That one always used to give me fits. But I had to play it because it was one of my favorite records.
Good luck.

[NickNack]

You've got more than half the problem solved by knowing that the song pitches up. Most of today's dj's don't and didn't have to deal with this problem. The fact that you've identified the shift means you shouldn't be caught off guard by pulling a 120 bpm song when you need 124 - 126, etc.

As far as pitching, the numbers you gave are relatively minor differences. Shouldn't even affect the 'ear' of the audience. Just find that point in the song where the drummer is most steady and/or let your next song go when you know the other starts to pitch up and will match what you pulled. You should catch it just fine.

Hell, "Don't Leave Me This Way", the remix of the Harold Melvin/Bluenotes version, this begins at somewhere around 122-124 and ends somewhere between 132 and 136. Just shows, you gotta know where you want the crowd to go BEFORE you lay the matter to the platter.

[NickNack]

On 2002-05-12 21:22, nrgbeat wrote:
I apologize if this confuses anyone.

Suppose you have a song that starts out at 120 bpm but increases to 124 by the end of the song. The song you are mixing into is 125 bpm but you have to lower it to 124 to make the mix.

My question is how do you know how far to adjust the pitch and how can you get the song in sync if the beat doesn't change until the end of the song?

You know, reading your question again makes me think you might be looking for something else than what I just wrote.

My question is how do you know how far to adjust the pitch

Since you have a 125 bpm in your hand and the one playing is 124, you should raise or lower your pitch control (depending on which way is 'down') very slightly. Technique turntables are numbered 2, 4, 6, 8 to mark the percent of the pitch with (dash) marks in between for 1, 3, 5, 7. Since 'up' equals 'lower', I would start at the '1'. You might need more or less depending on how accurate your bpm numbers are. You'll have to play with it to get both songs in line.

and how can you get the song in sync if the beat doesn't change until the end of the song?

Sounds like your concerned about setting up and testing the mix BEFORE you let it go live. You're right, you won't have a lot of time, probably none. You're going to have to trust yourself and set up ahead of time. Like John C. says, practice it at home first. This is just one of those times when knowing the music on the table is really as important as your skill in putting two pieces together.

Trust me, if your working with classic disco, you're going to hit this scenario more than you'd like to. It just becomes second nature after a while, and you won't think of it as a 'mixing problem'. Just part of the game.

[DJ P]

In response to the question of the variences of 'live drummer's' and matching BPM's-practice make perfect. Most DJ's (and I would say also today's nite-club jocks) in the 70's would pick up thier vinyl at their Record pool, fill in the titles and artists on their 'response/feedback sheet', and do a 'BPM' count and listen to the titles they just picked up. Then upon arriving at work, they would know the tempos, where the 'breaks' are on the vinyl and what music would be introduced in their sets and what music would NEVER be played unless for some reason it became a 'monster hit'. Even with all the pre-checking of BPM's, Breaks and mix 'in' and 'out' points feeces can happen!! Most of the times if the 'BPM' goes up or down during a mix in the 'not the 'regular' mix break and the tempo changes, USE that finger. Abit of help 'spinning the record' with the lable area, or slowing it down using the 'edge' of the vinly or the turntable's pitch control can save many a mix. Once a dj has that happen and is aware of a bpm change, they can do another bpm count for that break and also a measure/beat count 32/32, 8/8/16 (32beats of one type, 32 of a diffent type-8beats of one type, 8beats of another and 16beats to end the break with another style). Alot of the DJ services do this for the jocks. It is either on the labels or on a insert (like the old 'Disconet News') that is included with the montly releases. Hopes this info helps and answers your question. All the best, Phil

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DJ Phil on 2002-05-13 20:12 ]</font>

[Mixmachine]

Wow Dj Phil! , have you been picking at my vinyl collection, hahahahha, many of my records are litered with all kind of markings like you describe, you’d be amazed if you knew how many Deejays in the old days didn’t know about measures, they still managed to mix on beat but their mixes never hit the sweet spot.

Ngrbeat, you don’t need to ‘ride’ a mix every time, a quick well placed ‘chop’ is as good or better than a 128 beat superimpose, 16 beats 8, and even 4 are enough to setup a kick ass mix that will jolt the Dance floor with renew energy, you just need to know where exactly to ‘mix in’ and where to ‘mix out’, homework and practice will get you there, remember, sometimes less is better.

[The Lord of Flatbush]

Personally, I never had problems mixing with songs from the seventies; Especially with the live drummers and percussionists. I thrived with the challenge of mixing by harmonic keys. That comes from being a musician and studying music in school. These days with beat machines and samples, the days of the live drummers seem extinct. I've been mixing for over twenty five years, and practice makes perfect.

[DJ P]

On 2002-05-13 19:28, Mixmachine wrote:
Wow Dj Phil! , have you been picking at my vinyl collection, hahahahha, many of my records are litered with all kind of markings like you describe, you’d be amazed if you knew how many Deejays in the old days didn’t know about measures, they still managed to mix on beat but their mixes never hit the sweet spot.

Ngrbeat, you don’t need to ‘ride’ a mix every time, a quick well placed ‘chop’ is as good or better than a 128 beat superimpose, 16 beats 8, and even 4 are enough to setup a kick ass mix that will jolt the Dance floor with renew energy, you just need to know where exactly to ‘mix in’ and where to ‘mix out’, homework and practice will get you there, remember, sometimes less is better.

Hi Mixmachine, no I haven't been picking at your vinyl-I have it all and if you leave the funds in the correct location...it will be safely returned to you (LOL). Just kidding Mixmachine, it is amazing how many of today's 'CD' DJ's ignore the beauty of a long or sometimes short (8-16 counts)over-lay in a mix and basically do a 'slam-bam-thank you mamm' mix. I was never into 'slam' mixing (it reminded me too much of those old 'K-Tel' record tv ads-'4,000 of today's hottest (LOL) hits' pressed on poor vinyl and recorded with next to no VOLUME!!!!). I rarely did a 'slam' mix (unless there was a desperate need to change the floor's tempo) opting to play a mix with a 'cold ending' (McArthur's Park, Have a Cigar, Etc...) and bring up the bpm's that way. Layering Gino Soccio's 'Dancer' and overlaying Susy Lane's 'Harmony' was one of my old favorites. Mixing is mixing (layering two-three songs together) to create a sound for the club/dj. Larry Levan ('Garage Music'-mixed-you use a dub, mix in the end of an instrumental version, bring in the middle of a vocal copy...in other words-MIX a record) is one example. I have been to too many clubs where all you experianced was 'slam' mixing. The only time you heard a layered mix was when the DJ would place a 'record service' (Disconet/Hot Tracks/Ultimix) copy that would mix two or three songs together. That was what was wonderful about Discos in the Seventies, you could dance, drink, enjoy the MIXING, or do all three!!!!! Mixing is becoming a 'lost' art-form. All the best, DJ Phil