Pres Politics

[paul]

OK...How the hell did we wind up with Kerry going up against Bush. I was and still am a Dean guy because he offered a real alternative that I agree with. Did Dems get scared and were manipulated by among others the media? Is there a Kerry supporter that tell why his was more electable and what his vision is?
For folks outside the US, do you really want anybody but Bush?

[Bernie]

Having mainly favored Democrats almost all my life I will have to state that Bush is the way to go as the Dems have nothing serious to offer. This was even when Dean was still a viable candidate as he too just failed to convince me that he was up to the task. As much as I didn't like Bush when he was first elected, he isn't wishy-washy on matters.

[paul]

Well, as you know Bernie I'm a big time liberal. In fact I'm a liberal 1st, Dem second. Having said that I think the Dems blew it when they bought the big lie about Dean. He was in a statistical tie a week or 2 before Iowa. Duplicitous and dirty campaigning Kerry and Gephardt along with the media and The GOP had to bring Dean down. I've heard Dick Morris (former Clinton guy) say Dems in primaries vote for the most electable while Repubs vote for the best man.
I could go into why so many of us Deaniacs believed in his message (yes, there was and is still one) but it might get too lengthy. I will say though that it looks like Bush may actually win a Pres election this time. The issues where Bush is weakest, Kerry supported.

[originalbigm]

Politics is always a messy thing but that's the greatness of democracy.Freedom of choice!Personally while I am not a huge fan of Bush I certainly believe he is the only one who is addressing and dealing with the terrorist issues in the only way you can.I do realize that he has a real mess on his hands in Iraq and I can't offer any solutions.I certainly don't envy any American politician considering the current state of affairs in the middle east.It certainly isn't an easy job considering how much time and effort is required in placating the masses.If we were to find a viable domestically available alternative energy source to oil then maybe our need to be so involved with the middle east might make life a liitle easier for everyone.

[BrunoRepublic]

Politics is always a messy thing but that's the greatness of democracy.Freedom of choice!

A deeply-entrenched two-party system of right-wing and further-right-wing hardly constitutes "freedom of choice" IMHO.

Personally while I am not a huge fan of Bush I certainly believe he is the only one who is addressing and dealing with the terrorist issues in the only way you can.

By giving them more and more opportunities and justification for their acts? He has single-handedly generated more ill-will towards the US than any other administration in history.

I do realize that he has a real mess on his hands in Iraq

Which was completely unnecessary, had NOTHING to do with terrorism or WMD, and the entire world told him so. He LIED to the American people to justify a totally needless war. He went ahead anyway, and with each passing day, the results come closer to the disaster that everyone said it would be.

It certainly isn't an easy job considering how much time and effort is required in placating the masses.

The Republican party has mastered the art of hiding/ignoring the important issues (I could go on, but that would take several pages). Their manipulation of the media is incredibly effective. I recommend for Americans to check out a few foreign news sites to get a very different perspective on what's going on.

If we were to find a viable domestically available alternative energy source to oil then maybe our need to be so involved with the middle east might make life a liitle easier for everyone.

Alternative and viable energy sources DO exist and have for ages. But oil companies like Halliburton (which Cheney has such close ties to... hmmm...) have a lot of power, and it's not in their interest to change the status quo.

Perhaps I shouldn't be responding to this, as I'm not an American. And part of me believes that if Americans want to re-elect a man who has deceived them, trashed their economy, and brought the wrath of most of the world upon them, then that's their business. But the fact is, being the most powerful nation on the planet, whatever the US does affects everyone else. And it really bothers me that there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it, aside from post little rants like this one.

[markydefad]

Graham-you GO Girl!!!!! :D :D :D

Well said--I agree with everything. Bush gotta go back to Crawford, Texas. He seems most at home clearing brush at the ranch. That's a job he's suited for. Not President of the USA. :evil:

I'll be a "dittohead" for YOU--not the big, fat drug addict. :lol:

Hey, it is OK to be political now, right? I'm sorta outta practice. :o

[markydefad]

OOOOOOHHHHH!!!! Quelle surprise!!!! I just noticed I've reached a new membership level!!!! Double Diamond!!! :D

I'm not worthy!!!! :oops: :oops: :oops:

"I ask you where...where do we go from here????" :lol:

[NickNack]

Thank you, Graham. I wish more people in the USA paid as much as attention to what's going on as you seem to be. As for not being an "American", the hell you aren't. You live on the North American Continent :) , next door to this presidential nitwit. You have every right to be concerned. We have a man who couldn't sucessfully run his own corporate businesses now attempting to lead a nation. He's managed to put the economy in the toilet, sell the nation a 'bogus' medicare plan, shift the war on terrorism from Osama/Afghanistan to Saddam/Iraq on false pretenses, set up lucrative oil deals with questionable bidding practices for Cheney and the like, announced the war to be 'over' last year only to have at least one American a-day die in combat since his statement. He passed a 'Patriot Act' that is slowly starting to make this 'Homeland' feel and act like the 'Fatherland'. The man makes me ill. And who, as a Democrat, am I supposed to put my faith in? Kerry? Dear, God! I have as much trust and respect in him as I do for our two high-level Black Republicans :roll: , Powell and Rice. As a Black Man, I thought I would never again feel as lousy, bewildered and betrayed as I did when Clarence "Uncle" Thomas was put on the Supreme Court. Never say never... :evil:

[paul]

Thank you, Graham. I wish more people in the USA paid as much as attention to what's going on as you seem to be. As for not being an "American", the hell you aren't. You live on the North American Continent :) , next door to this presidential nitwit. You have every right to be concerned. We have a man who couldn't sucessfully run his own corporate businesses now attempting to lead a nation. He's managed to put the economy in the toilet, sell the nation a 'bogus' medicare plan, shift the war on terrorism from Osama/Afghanistan to Saddam/Iraq on false pretenses, set up lucrative oil deals with questionable bidding practices for Cheney and the like, announced the war to be 'over' last year only to have at least one American a-day die in combat since his statement. He passed a 'Patriot Act' that is slowly starting to make this 'Homeland' feel and act like the 'Fatherland'. The man makes me ill. And who, as a Democrat, am I supposed to put my faith in? Kerry? Dear, God! I have as much trust and respect in him as I do for our two high-level Black Republicans :roll: , Powell and Rice. As a Black Man, I thought I would never again feel as lousy, bewildered and betrayed as I did when Clarence "Uncle" Thomas was put on the Supreme Court. Never say never... :evil:

Totally agree with you Nicky! The thing is judging from polling and votes, many Americans are OK with this :o
Oh, did you happen to hear about Condi's slip of the tongue. She was giving a speech and caught herself in mid-sentence saying her husband then quickly corrected it by saying President

[markydefad]

This country is soooo divided right now. It's like 44% Republican, 44% Democrat and 12% Undecided. Bush could get a blowjob from Condisleaza in the Oval Office and the numbers wouldn't change. He can do no wrong to 44%, no right for 44% and the others are still trying to make up their minds and find their pulses, I guess. :evil:

The Republicans were just salivating to campaign against Howard Dean. They would have marginalized him as a radical Ben & Jerry loving Communist by now. Kerry was actually a war hero--actually served his country in a war and was honored. What a novel concept!!! The non-war participatin' but pro-war proliferatin' Republicans have now painted Kerry as a traitor and questioned his service, his war medals, just about everything. It's enough to make ya wanna move to Canada.

Graham, need some roommates????

[paul]

This country is soooo divided right now. It's like 44% Republican, 44% Democrat and 12% Undecided. Bush could get a blowjob from Condisleaza in the Oval Office and the numbers wouldn't change. He can do no wrong to 44%, no right for 44% and the others are still trying to make up their minds and find their pulses, I guess. :evil:

The Republicans were just salivating to campaign against Howard Dean. They would have marginalized him as a radical Ben & Jerry loving Communist by now. Kerry was actually a war hero--actually served his country in a war and was honored. What a novel concept!!! The non-war participatin' but pro-war proliferatin' Republicans have now painted Kerry as a traitor and questioned his service, his war medals, just about everything. It's enough to make ya wanna move to Canada.

Graham, need some roommates????

My response as a Dean supporter is this.
It's been said you know when the guys in the Bush administration are lying because they open their mouths. When they said they were salivating at getting Dean, that only further confirmed to me Dean was the man. One of the things with Dean was he had backbone and got in Bush's face. The repubs are going to say whatever regardless of whose running. Dean however put them on the defensive. Unlike most if not all in the field, he publicly questioned the war in Iraq before the rest of the spineless Dems dared think so. He said right after Saddam's capture that we are no safer. Within a week, we were at the highest terror threat since 9-11 and of course over 600 soldiers have died in Iraq. He questioned what Bush knew before 9-11 back in January. My point is Dean goes on the offensive while the others like Kerry are constantly in a position to defend against something. I believe Bush/Rove are happy Dean is gone and now have Kerry who supported the Iraq war, the tax cuts, No Child Left Behind, etc. These are all Bush's and on top of that, Kerry stays on the defensive.
I'm sorry but Dems are too easily manipulated and relied too much on Kerry's Vietnam Vet status without doing more homework on this guy. I believe Dick Morris (former Clinton guy) is right. Repubs esp. in primaries vote for
the best man from there ideological point of view. Dems vote for what they think is the most electable. Unfortunately this plays into the new conservative agenda. If the most electable isn't necessarily the best in terms of vision or ideology, it's hard to beat an opponent who is clear on his. That's why Dems in my view control no branches of government!

[QUINNY]

I feel revolution's in the air.

Many, many people in the western world have woken up at last to the ultimate truth that politics and more especially, politicians of all creeds and persuasions, SUCK!!! None of 'em have any balls, any faith, conviction or real power any more. They all just argue about nothing in particular and never effectively solve anything. Governments have become too all embracing and too darned meddling in our freedoms and our lives.

BTW: The notion that politicians get us into so much trouble is laughable when the whole world knows that it's the McDonalds, Pepsis, Coca Colas, IBMs, Microsofts, etc etc of this world actually take the decisions that make our lives crap. Politicians are merely their ineffectual puppets who've lost the power to control corporate America's greed. In many ways, I'd rather have a politician with some sense of justice and compassion rule my life , than the totally amoral fat cats of industry who currently do.

Greenhouse gas emissions control is the one most important issue that the US people have to sort out. Keep going down your gas guzzling road for much longer and the whole world will be your enemy or you will have to start WW3 in order to get what you percieve to be your fair share of the soon to be diminishing oil reserves. Either way, history will see the current US generation as the most wasteful, selfish human beings to ever tread the Earth.

Iraq was round 1 and once a united Europe, or a strong China, or even India start to want more than their fair share.....look out!!! The US is already a super power in decline and it won't be too, too long before it is ripe for the taking. You're only 280 million after all. You're no bigger than Europe and a fraction of the size of India and China. In the end, numbers count and once rampant consumerism is awakened in somewhere like China, their GDP will outshop everyone else and their tax revenues will buy more weapons than even the American military can dream about.

The writing is on the wall.

[paul]

Interesting take Quinny. It may be hard for some of us to respond here in the states due to creeping gestapo tactics. I say this because I just heard the US Secret Service is investigating a kindergartener for drawing a picture of Bush looking like Satan :o
I will say that history as you are well aware as a British citizen, shows that empires and great powers come and go.
Hey Nicky, as a vet, what is your take on this exchange between Bush and Kerry as it relates to Vietnam service?

[QUINNY]

Paul: Don't worry, the Echelon? programme already has all of this thread up for analysis.

[paul]

What is Echelon Quinny?

[QUINNY]

The name may not be right, but the US (and other governments) do have the capacity to listen in to every phone call and to read every email and fax that's ever sent.
This has probably been utilised even more since 9/11.

[paul]

Hey Quinny. I've heard tham discuss Carnivore. That is supposed check out all the email traffic.
I do agree though that they have had the ability to check out the various forms of communications pre 9/11. That's why I believe it's bullshit that Bush is giving people. They knew that the hijackings were gonna happen, perhaps not as devastating but they knew. It was too well coordinated. They needed a pretext to do the **** they're doing now.

[paul]

Well I just heard Sean Hannity admit twice, something us Dean supporters have known all along. Oh, for those who wouldn't know, Hannity is a big time conservative republican radio and tv talk show host. He stated that unlike Kerry, Dean has core beliefs in liberalism and doesn't run from it. That it is why I always felt Bush and his fellow repubs went after Dean and despite the glib talk, feared him most. Now the repubs seem almost unfazed by Kerry even though politically they've had a tough few months. The polls have the two in a statistical dead heat. Quite frankly, Kerry should up by at least 10 points with all the crap that's going on but I don't think people know where Kerry is coming from. :evil:

[Nano]

A modest contribution:

1) I agree 100% with Graham's post. Quinny's also right (that's why Graham mentioned the oil companies).
2) I also agree with Paul in that Dean seemed like the perfect opponent. However, is the Americans who will vote :)
3) And here's the important thing for me: you Americans have to vote! I can't believe when I read the papers on the US elections saying that only, like, 30% of the people voted. The other 70% was the chief responsible of the scandals of the last presidential election, IMHO.
In my country vote is obbligatory and we're taught at schools that voting is a right but also a duty. Then, of course there are many ways to bribe a vote (and most are put in use in our own elections), but from the outside it seems like most of the US citizens just doesn't care about who rules!
Someone said that right now the US President is a bit like the world's President (with the US geopolitical position and all). Well, as a citizen of the world, this thing Americans have with going to vote worries me. :o

[paul]

Hey Nano.
You're right in criticizing the dismal voter turnout in the states. Most people here are like "whatever." These guys are all the same. I know it's an excuse but that's a popular mindset.
Quite frankly, I also believe the people in the inner circle at the highest levels of business, the media, and politics are happy about this because it maintains the status quo. Anyone that might actually bring about significant changes face anything from media destruction to quite possibly death.

[Jeff H]

I love this comment made last week by Nancy Pelosi (she's a member of the House of Representatives from California and the Democratic leader of the House, for our non-U.S. friends or those who don't pay attention to politics. And if you don't, why the hell NOT??! :evil: This November's election is rather important, if you ask me....)

Ahem... Anyway, Pelosi said: "Bush is an incompetent leader. In fact, he's not a leader. He's a person who has no judgment, no experience and no knowledge of the subjects that he has to decide upon.... The shallowness that he has brought to the office has not changed since he got there.... The president's capacity to lead has never been there. In order to lead, you have to have judgment. In order to have judgment, you have to have knowledge and experience. He has none."

Bravo, Nancy! And you too, Graham! Like someone else said, if only U.S. voters were as informed about the issues here as you are! (And if Bushwhacked wins in November, maybe my next trip to Toronto will be permanent. )

Unlike many Democrats, I was never sold on Dean, but I will admit I am not overly thrilled with Kerry as the nominee (although his wife Teresa Heinz Kerry is a philanthropic legend here in Pittsburgh and a woman known for speaking her mind. She'd make a great First Lady--and her sons from her first marriage are damn cute too! ). I just think it's imperative that the Democrats nominate a candidate who can win back the White House.

I guess that makes me one of those "ABBA" voters: Anyone But Bush Again! :D

[DISCODISK]

i was just shocked to read your president has fell off his bike :o he must have been on the way to the bookshop heres for a speedy recovery dubya :lol:

[Jeff H]

he must have been on the way to the bookshop

I don't think Bushie has seen the inside of a bookshop in his life!

Unfortunately, the joke's really on the US people.

[SandraDee]

Even Quinny's read more books than Dubya. :lol:

[QUINNY]

Nope, even George W is ahead of me on that!!