"Love Saves The Day" New book on Disco...

[herbalizer12]

Dear Group,

I am just wondering if anyone out there has read the new Tim Lawrence book, "Love Saves The Day" - A history of American Dance Music culture 1970-79"(ISBN 0-223-3198-5, 456 pages, 73 illustrations. Duke University Press, released January 2004), as yet?

Having not seen this book on Discomusic.com in the book section, I have won a "proof" copy from a seller recently and I have read extracts from it and this one does seem to be factually correct and very in-depth for all hardened fans of pure disco music.

Would appreciate any feedback from recent owners of this book and your opinions on it.

Regards,
herbz! :)

[Greg Wilson]

Hi herbalizer 12.
I posted re this a few weeks ago, but it's tucked away in the Music Industry Promotions & Special Events section of the forum, which you obviously haven't seen. Click here:
http://www.discomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6844

It's a wonderful book, the most in depth account of the Disco period to date. The author, Tim Lawrence, has been in New York this week with David Mancuso and Danny Krivit promoting 'Love Saves The Day.

I got a review copy some months ago, which inspired me to write the piece 'David Mancuso And The Art Of Deejaying Without Deejaying' (details in the above link).

[QUINNY]

Hmm, Greg. I find it incredibly strange that people still insist that Manu DiBango - Soul Makossa was the first real disco record, or that they claim rights to discovering it, as if it was the greatest record ever to adorn a turntable. What a load of tosh, honestly. It has a rhythm that's nothing like Disco's straight 4/4 variations. I loved the track, but no more than countless others from the time that had more obvious Disco bona fides. As it is, Afrique's version was much better to dance to, tougher to boot and the one most DJs played once it was released.
Maybe it was the beginning of World Music. Now there's a thought.

[Greg Wilson]

Hmm, Greg. I find it incredibly strange that people still insist that Manu DiBango - Soul Makossa was the first real disco record, or that they claim rights to discovering it, as if it was the greatest record ever to adorn a turntable. What a load of tosh, honestly. It has a rhythm that's nothing like Disco's straight 4/4 variations. I loved the track, but no more than countless others from the time that had more obvious Disco bona fides. As it is, Afrique's version was much better to dance to, tougher to boot and the one most DJs played once it was released.
Maybe it was the beginning of World Music. Now there's a thought.

Not quite sure where you're coming from here Quinny?

There's little doubt that David Mancuso did 'discover' 'Soul Makossa', which resulted in other New York DJ's playing it, which resulted in a US release, which resulted in the likes of you and I over here in the UK eventually playing it.

Come on Quinny, in this life you've got to give credit where credit's due. Things don't happen on their own.

I'm not sure who these people are that insist that 'Soul Makossa' was the first Disco record - I'm certainly not saying this, nor is David Mancuso or Tim Lawrence, who wrote the book. And I'd disagree that most DJ's played the Afrique version as opposed to Manu Dibango.

Remember that Disco wasn't always regarded as straight 4/4 music, but was originally a term given to records that were played in Discotheques. Being a similar age to me you surely know this?

Why do you have to bring something down that is of value to everyone with a love of Disco music? Tim Lawrence should be congratulated for writing such a definitive book about the music and culture that has brought everyone on this board together, all these years on. I suggest you read it before knocking it, I'm sure that, if you can put your cynicism to one side, you'd really enjoy it and undoubtedly learn a great deal.

[herbalizer12]

Hiya Greg,

Yes! I originally found out about this book from you as you did send Mancuso interview/details to my personal email address. I'm the guy from Perth, Australia, who contacted you months ago, re: RRA/Murdertone, KISS AMC, etc, etc..

I don't know why we are all arguing over Manu's "Soul Makossa" here, as it's definitely part of disco's heritage either way you look at it.

Greg, you are indeed correct, thousands of tracks (like "Soul....") that came before the coined, mass-commercialized term of "disco" , were staple tracks in all discoteque disc jockey sets. Thought disco is often associated with its 4/4 constant, loads of soul, northern soul, jazz fusion, etc, were "proto-disco" tracks many years before disco's explosion. Therefore, Manu is part of that genesis. Personally, I think "Nu Bell" rocks it any day or year!!!

As for Afrique, their cover of "Soul Makossa" is good, but the killer tracks from that one and only album (titled "Soul Makossa" 1974 Mainstream Records) has to be their interpretation of "Kissing My Love", "Hot Mud" and "House Of THe Rising Funk", which Chad Jackson utilized for the drum break throughout "Hear THe Drummer (Get Wicked)" all those years ago!

Some great players on that Afrique record, too: King Erisson, Steve Kravitz, Charles Kynard, Chino Valdes....

Now... back to the subject at hand...... :)

herbz12

[QUINNY]

Greg: Oops, I've done it again! :oops:

You know what they say. If you can remember everything about the ('60s) '70s, you weren't really there, so I'm relatively happy in my obvious ignorance.

I just worry about the absolute accuracy of these books. They are, after all is said and done, written by one person with their perceptions having a major influence on what eventually hits the page and a lot of the info is taken from interviews with known egotists and self publicists. It's not as if these tomes have the authority of a recognized history professor behind them and all that that implies. They're not written for scientific discussion and I've never seen a website yet that isn't somewhat sycophantic in its eulogising about the 'old masters'. So famous that BITD we didn't necessarily know or care who they were. Hmmmm. It's not as if we had reviews that read " another record discovered/championed by DJ X at disco Z". Brit jocks used to occasionally get these plaudits, but we all knew they had huge egos that needed feeding and every other big time jock would have had the records too. 'They' discovered just as many total flops as good useful records and if you lived in London and regularly went to the import shops you could actually be temporarily ahead of those same guys, if a record had literally just arrived. So what? It's all air.

This is not to diss the book, just natural scepticism, which I hope you can at least partly, relate to.

[paul]

Greg: Oops, I've done it again! :oops:

You know what they say. If you can remember everything about the ('60s) '70s, you weren't really there, so I'm relatively happy in my obvious ignorance.

This is not to diss the book, just natural scepticism, which I hope you can at least partly, relate to.

Now this is the Quinny we know and love :lol:

[NickNack]

There's little doubt that David Mancuso did 'discover' 'Soul Makossa', which resulted in other New York DJ's playing it, which resulted in a US release, which resulted in the likes of you and I over here in the UK eventually playing it.

Greg,

I need a little more detail here ,if possible. I can understand where some would credit David with 'discovering' "Soul Makossa" for other DJs and the club scene. But, you say his 'discovery' resulted in a US release. Do you have the timeframe on when David first started playing this song? I believe the "Soul Makossa" album was recorded in Paris so did David have the import? I'm just curious because I know most of the brothers and sisters in my neighborhood who had this song blasting on their systems (like me :D ) had never heard of David or "The Loft" (again, like me :( ) at the time, which would be late '72 into '73.

On the topic: The book sounds interesting and I do enjoy reading about these 'good old days' so I'm sure I'll be visiting the book store soon.

[Greg Wilson]

There's little doubt that David Mancuso did 'discover' 'Soul Makossa', which resulted in other New York DJ's playing it, which resulted in a US release, which resulted in the likes of you and I over here in the UK eventually playing it.

Greg,

I need a little more detail here ,if possible. I can understand where some would credit David with 'discovering' "Soul Makossa" for other DJs and the club scene. But, you say his 'discovery' resulted in a US release. Do you have the timeframe on when David first started playing this song? I believe the "Soul Makossa" album was recorded in Paris so did David have the import? I'm just curious because I know most of the brothers and sisters in my neighborhood who had this song blasting on their systems (like me :D ) had never heard of David or "The Loft" (again, like me :( ) at the time, which would be late '72 into '73.

On the topic: The book sounds interesting and I do enjoy reading about these 'good old days' so I'm sure I'll be visiting the book store soon.

Hi NickNack: Here goes:

"Originally a French pressing on Fiesta, the record made its way into the United States via an African import company in Brooklyn. Alfie Davison (once of Jungle) and David Mancuso were the first spinners to get hold of the record and within weeks DJ's and dancers alike were hunting for a slab of vinyl that didn't exist. 'David went to this little Jamaican shop and found 'Soul Makossa'', says Nicky Siano. 'David gave it to David Rodriguez and Michael Cappello, and David Rodriguez told me where to get it. I bought five copies'. Within days the rare import was retailing at an inflated price, and by the middle of May Billboard was moved to run a special item on the import, which was 'fetching a record price of between $2 an $3 in New York record shops because of its unprecedented popularity in the black community'...

It goes on to say that Ahmet Ertegun and Jerry Wexler licensed the track to Atlantic and it entered the US charts on 23 June 1973.

Then:
"Dibango's chart success represented a significant turning point in the cultural economy of Entertainment America and its importance was formally recognized when 'Soul Makossa' became the paradigmatic focal point of the first dedicated piece of journalism to be written about nightworld since the demise of Arthur' ('Discotheque Rock' in Rolling Stone - Sept 73).

[QUINNY]

I'd still treat this information with a pinch of salt. So a middle class white guy is more switched on than a small but (presumably) more knowledgeable, more hungry for product they can relate to, African community in New York? Hmmmm.
Makossa is a type of African dance, so why wouldn't any Africans in New York be over the moon at such a great record being available and start playing it straight away? This would have been something they would have been most eager to have. Rather like if you were an American living in Timbuktu and there was a little American shop that got hold of the odd hot Disco record!!! The local Malis would obviously be more into Disco than you'd be.

Quote: For the eighth African Nations Cup, the great football event in Yaoundé in 1972, Manu composed a hymn, the other side of which became the biggest African hit of all time, "Soul Makossa".

While at first, neither Yaoundé or Paris seemed to appreciate this piece, a few Americans who were visiting Decca took the single and played it on their radios.

The 8th African Nations Cup was held in February 1972 in the Cameroons

So no-one else discovered this track in a whole year and a bit, until Mancuso happened upon it????

This dispels my theory and also Mancusos.

[Greg Wilson]

Quinny - why don't you write your own book instead off slagging off everybody elses stuff. You obviously feel you know better, be it Disco, Electro-Funk, Northern Soul, Jazz-Funk, the Gay scene etc etc etc.

BTW who's this middle class white guy? If you're talking about Mancuso you're way out. You also fail to take into account that the audience at The Loft was a healthy mixture of black and white (also gay and straight).

NickNack - how does the account I quoted add up with your own memories of the track. It seems to fit in with the dates you gave me.

[QUINNY]

Greg:

I'd call an interior designer and art dealer fairly middle class. Unless he was really a painter and decorator and part time rag and bone man.

If I did write a book, I wouldn't make it factual. Just recollections by a DJ. Like I've written before, every new record had to be broken to an audience. Every DJ that ever worked would have had to make decisions on how to work a record in. Every hit record was undiscovered territory at some point. So, what is the big deal with 'discovering' any record. It's something every jock did on a regular basis in one way or another.

I'm not slagging off, just saying that I don't fully appreciate books that pertain to be historically accurate being accepted as bibles. Every word cherished and hung on with salivating mouths and awe induced hero worship. I lived it, just like they did, so my perception is just as valid as theirs'. I know what I remember and how I felt. Only differences, I'm not earning money with my perception and I'm not hungry for a larger audience for what I have to say. I'm not trying to make a buck (or several hundred thousand) out of it. Money changes everything.

Had these books been written BITD, that would change everything. The history would have been more readily accountable.

[Greg Wilson]

Touch of deja vu here Quinny, I've been here before with you and it's clear that, just as then, I'm on a hiding to nothing - you're just going to disagree with whatever I post.

I don't want to shatter your illusions, but your own experiences as a DJ cannot be compared with those of David Mancuso's. I know you rate yourself highly, but this is a form of madness Quinny. Regardless of what you believe, some DJ's led and others followed. Mancuso should have your respect, but all you can do is try to belittle his influence and make him out to be some kind of born with a silver spoon middle class phony, when in reality he spent his formulative years in an orphanage and hardly had the easy passage through life you suggest.

I'd hoped to draw peoples attention to what I believe to be a important new book, but, in classic Quinny style, you've crapped all over this thread. It makes me wonder what the point is of posting here when you're only going to take delight in rubbishing everything.

You haven't even read this book, yet you dismiss it as worthless.

That's my last word on it, it's pointless continuing this.

[QUINNY]

Greg: You continue to deliberately misquote, misinterpret and misunderstand my posts.

One can be in an orphanage for 16 years, but if one then makes it in life and acquires a certain amount of wealth through doing work for relatively wealthy clients, to whom one aspires, one is then verging on middle class. Where one was born and what sort of childhood one has, makes F all difference, especially in the U.S.A and you know that. You don't want to understand me and my intransigence is only matched by your own. I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall with you!!

If I crap on anything, it's the thought that I have to read a book to help me understand what I was living through and why certain characters had such a huge (but to me unknown) influence on my buying decisions, lifestyle etc ,etc. And all this 30 years (a safe enough period) after the event.

At the end of the day, you don't have to take umbridge with what I write and respond. You could just leave it alone, so I can only infer that you actually enjoy the gentle sparring.

When have I ever said that I know best?? Please find quotes and post. I defy you to do that and then apologize when you can't!!

More posts when you don't have something to plug might endear you to me a little more.

[herbalizer12]

Without wanting to get caught up in a Wilson Vs Quinny war, I can see both sides here but sometimes time and circumstance have a strange effect.

I have to admit that over the years we have been bombarded by so-called "authorative", "in-depth", "be-all, end-all" claims to certain books on, not only disco, but many other styles of music, that, sometimes, it is really hard to sort the chaff from the wheat in regards to who has autonomy over which writer is closer to the perceived "definitive" historical facts or not?

To some degree, Quinny has raised some cutting, thought-provoking points here! So much of music has turned into case studies and you are swamped with pages of analytical text of any 'discoverer' of a perceived movement, not to mention endless lists of records that "X" deejay played which amounts to every record released that year!, and to the general majority, the whys-and-wherefores aren't important at all; the fact that this music "exists" is cause enough for celebration.

Having a book that dissects the form down to it's own particles, isn't gonna sway your "average Betty & Joe" into deciding who played what first and where, etc, etc.

When Quinny says "I lived it (disco's glory days, presumably),so my perception is as valid as theirs" is spot-on! He was part of that hedonism whereby he was every part of a "scene" and a 'way of life' that simply lived for that moment. Perhaps writers should focus on disco punters of that day as equally about specific details as much as they try and track down every DJ and his dog to add creedence that they were "there" at the beginning? It wasn't a party without a crowd remember.

Maybe when you detail these 'movements' as they happened (re: David Toop's classic "Rap Attack", "Albert Goldman's "Disco!" or even Simon Reynolds "Blissed Out") we then view a 'nowness' that has a total sense of a belonging to something genuinely groundbreaking, rather than second-hand, well-documented accounts (30 years on) from every deejay who just happened to 'be around' in 1972; hung out @ infamous clubs and played records!

I, for one, am glad that the process of self-evaluation and historical perspective has been now written in sand, but with a dearth of reading material on the market, I never know who has the firmest handle on the truth at book's end?

.... after this book, I don't think I need to read any more dissertations on disco, as I feel I should have got enough insight for a (literary) lifetime,at least. Err, then maybe...?

herbz12

[NickNack]

NickNack - how does the account I quoted add up with your own memories of the track. It seems to fit in with the dates you gave me.

The timeframe seems about right. I came home from the Air Force in October, 1972. By spring/summer of 1973, "Soul Makossa" was everywhere on black radio. The album became an "instant classic" for black folk. I mean, just everybody was buying it and the version they bought was on the Atlantic label, not the import.

Thanks for the info. Interesting to me how this song I had always thought of as 'small' but great was actually bigger than I ever realized.

As for the 'discovery', I'm not going to enter this 'discussion' but for me, it's neither here nor there. New York jocks were always giving credit, rightly so or not, to one another for 'discovering' or 'breaking' a song: Mancuso for Manu Dibango, Siano for MFSB's "Love Is The Message", Merritt for Voyage's "Souvenirs", Levan for Taana Gardner. We all used to travel the city to hear one another. It's one of the ways we kept up with what was happening, what was being played, what people were dancing to. On many occasions, we all heard a new piece of music in the same club, hence, 'the discovery'. Also, like David, many jocks who found something hot weren't afraid to let others know. It wasn't always about 'who-had-what and who-played-it-first'. That came later, when dj's egos were getting bigger than the clubs they played in.

[NickNack]

More posts when you don't have something to plug might endear you to me a little more.

Let's power-down just a little. An accusation that I think Bernie would handle privately, if true. OK? Keep it to the book.

[JussiK]

Where does this interesting sounding book stand on the kind of disco that was huge yet is usually now regarded as worthless in the USA, disco like Midney -?

[DISCODISK]

One can be in an orphanage for 16 years, but if one then makes it in life and acquires a certain amount of wealth through doing work for relatively wealthy clients, to whom one aspires, one is then verging on middle class

one would have thought that most of the population of this country in 2004 had done away with this nonsense,perhaps one is mistaken :roll:





[/quote]More posts when you don't have something to plug might endear you to me a little more.[/quote]



greg wilson isnt plugging anything, hes sharing,i was told last week by a friend hes really busy d.jing all over the country so perhaps hes just too busy to post other things here. BTW quinny hows YOUR d.j diary :lol:

[QUINNY]

[quote="DISCODISK"]

One can be in an orphanage for 16 years, but if one then makes it in life and acquires a certain amount of wealth through doing work for relatively wealthy clients, to whom one aspires, one is then verging on middle class

one would have thought that most of the population of this country in 2004 had done away with this nonsense,perhaps one is mistaken :roll: [quote]

DISCODISK: What's so passe about this. Please enlighten. I'd have thought that my prognosis was totally to do with meritocracy and not being labelled for life, just because one was born into certain circumstances.

DD: Really, how boring, ganging up and bullying little ol' (dare to be individual) Quinny for the umpteenth time!!!!
So Greg's DJing again...Good luck to him. I don't particularly want to or need to, as of now.

[herbalizer12]

It now seems my initial question asked has now been completely taken out of context and resorted itself to petty squabbling.

I think debate is healthy and Quinny should be allowed to validate his own critisisms with his theories; we might not all agree but at least he is taking a left-field stance and questioning the norm here.

Best of all... he hasn't even read the book in question, setting himself up for further vitriol!

Playtime is over, kiddies. Now.... anyone care to deliver an opinion on "Love Saves The Day"? Go on.... I dare you...?!!!

[NickNack]

It now seems my initial question asked has now been completely taken out of context and resorted itself to petty squabbling.

Taken out of context? Try ignored.

I think debate is healthy and Quinny should be allowed to validate his own critisisms with his theories; we might not all agree but at least he is taking a left-field stance and questioning the norm here.

His stance is nothing new but I fail to see what 'normality' you see being questioned :-? .

Best of all... he hasn't even read the book in question, setting himself up for further vitriol!

And yet, because he's "lived it", we get to hear his opinion on the book, declaring it to be of the same ilk he dislikes and which eventually will obtain 'bilbical' status due to an ill-informed, awe-struck public. :roll:

Playtime is over, kiddies. Now.... anyone care to deliver an opinion on "Love Saves The Day"? Go on.... I dare you...?!!!

Maybe we should come back to this question at a later time since the book has just hit the shelves. (Release date January, 2004, in the US.) Greg had an advanced copy so he had a headstart. We 'mere mortals' :) need to hit the streets (well, maybe the cyber highway) and buy it.

[QUINNY]

NickNack: Blame it all on Quinny. Yawn!!
You are soooooo biased.

[NickNack]

NickNack: Blame it all on Quinny. Yawn!!
You are soooooo biased.

Pardon me? :-? I'm not biased --- just soooo misunderstood.

It now seems my initial question asked has now been completely taken out of context and resorted itself to petty squabbling.

Taken out of context? Try ignored.

Is your name here anywhere?

I think debate is healthy and Quinny should be allowed to validate his own critisisms with his theories; we might not all agree but at least he is taking a left-field stance and questioning the norm here.

His stance is nothing new but I fail to see what 'normality' you see being questioned :-? .

Only the first half of my response pertains to you. If it's inaccurate, please tell me.

Best of all... he hasn't even read the book in question, setting himself up for further vitriol!

And yet, because he's "lived it", we get to hear his opinion on the book, declaring it to be of the same ilk he dislikes and which eventually will obtain 'bilbical' status due to an ill-informed, awe-struck public. :roll:

I've simply paraphrased you. Where's me placing blame?

[herbalizer12]

There's never a dull moment when Quinny's around, that's fo' sure!!!!