SHOULD DISCO HAVE STAYED UNDERGROUND?

[QUINNY]

This is a subject that's bothered me for a long, long time.

I personally think that had Disco remained an underground phenomenon, then it might have stood a better chance of being more widely accepted. Yes, I know that statement makes no real sense, but let me explain.

Without a shadow of a doubt, I, like every other DJ I knew felt a certain pride, a ceratin satisfaction when Disco records started to penetrate the national charts, in a little more than dribs and drabs. At last, we felt the music that we and our customers loved was getting a greater recognition. That it was actually worthy of a wider audience. So far so good.
The problem was, that in the U.S.A. more than any other country, Disco was hi-jacked by the greed of capitalism, so that anything and everything that could be given a loose affinity to it, began to take advantage of it. Suddenly, everybody was trying to make a buck out of it and unfortunately for Disco, probably 99% of those didn't particularly care for it, or have any idea what it was really about. Saturday Night Fever was the catalyst and it has to be said, was probably one of the reasons why Disco in the U.S.A. was ineveitably going to end up the way it did. Once a pretty poorly made film, with no stars could make a fortune, the floodgates opened to anyone to try and emulate it. Not necessarily in film, but by making and marketing the 1001 other products that suddenly flooded the market.
One positive aspect was that there were more good Disco records being made, this simply being a by-product of the staggering amount of records that were released to cash in on the boom. So we got our hits that were etched into the psyche of the general population, but that same population was exposed to an even greater amount of Disco dross, made by uncaring, unsophisticated, unheard of artists and producers. Disco music became a production line activity and it showed.
So maybe, just maybe, Disco would have been better served and better supported nowadays (albeit by a less than massive fan base) had Disco remained largely underground? It would not have had the massive backlash against it and all the repercussions. After all, if there hadn't been the Disco sucks campaign, Disco would not have become the pariah that it obviously is with some folks, to this day. It might have been a music fondly remembered by a slightly larger audience than currently care to admit it.

What do you think?

[DiscoMan]

I totally agree with your assesment.

B/4 "SNF" Disco in Central Massachusetts was only in the Dance Clubs (a very few nice ones through '77). The music was not overplayed on the radio and people who liked other types of music and didn't go to the dance clubs were not overwhelmed by Disco music in the record stores - they continued to be able to buy what they wanted. And air play remained balanced. Everyone was happy. "Saturday Night Fever" ruined this balance and ruined Disco. As much as I love SNF it was the worst thing that ever happened to Disco. It introduced what was essentially urban night club music to parts of the country where it never should have been. East BumPhuck, Texas had no business trying to Hustle!

[K-Bee]

This is a very interesting, if somehow controversial, subject, that is sure to get a lot of attention among members of this board.

I suppose most of us would agree that once the big labels and commercial interest got into promoting the disco genre, it almost killed of any kind of creativity in the process, ultimately leading to the whole "Disco Sucks" thing. All parts of the entertainment world tried to capitalize on the succes of disco, spawning terrible releases (a micky mouse disco LP comes to mind) and I believe a lot of the good stuff coming out at the same time never got the much needed promotion because of this "disco overkill"...no surprise that the averige record buyer soon grew tired of the style.

Once the attention was moved from disco as a commercial craze and the "disco sucks" movement faded away, the music started to get better and more creative once again.
Disco went from underground in the mid 70s and into chart topping music in the late 70s and there's no doubt in my mind that it suffered a lot quality wise.
Disco turning underground and (in my opinion) getting a whole lot more interesting in the early 80s (showing the path for things to come...house etc.) is definete proof in my book that if it had actually stayed undergound the entire time, it would gotten more recognition among today's music listeners as well.

Once again, a truly relevant topic comes from the mind of mr. Q :lol:
Thanks for putting this up Quinny.

[efunk_adelic]

I wouldn't say I agree or disagree. Disco music was evolving and got better and better as time went on. Of course it was fun and we were thrilled to hear the first songs turn into hits commercially. The problem was it was fun, danceable, emotional and different. There was no way it would stay underground!

by the way, great topic Quinny.

[QUINNY]

It is strange how the big labels come in for so much criticism from most commentators (not only on this board). I remember lotsa great disco and funk tracks on the majors, long before SNF. I guess I have to qualify that by stating that the UK at the time wasn't such a hotbed of independant record label activity, so most records that were any good were snapped up by a recognised label.

I remember writing to James Hamilton of Record Mirror at the time of the first commercial 12" singles in the UK. WEA were the first to really jump on board and I remember that I wrote something like " I feel that 12" singles are a great idea for long Disco mixes. However, it would appear that the record labels are going to use them as cynical marketing tools. Look at Boney M's Daddy Cool. The 12" is no longer than the 7" and it's shot into the charts on the back of those 12" sales". I also said that it might lead to nondescript records making the charts, just because they were put onto 12". Don't forget, in the very beginning, 12" singles were regarded as a novelty and possibly a passing phase. Only 4 years before we'd had Quadrophonic as the BIG thing. Only a handful of 7" Quad singles were ever released and the format flopped massively.
I hate to say it, but for once in my life, in this case I was right on the money. The rest, as they say, is history.

[originalbigm]

There are valid points being made here however one must ask if disco had remained underground would we have had the emergence of stars such as Donna Summer and Barry White or the great production teams of Gamble and Huff,Niles and Rogers,Moroder and Belliote without commercialization.The music industry is all about making money and I certainly think had the disco genre remained underground it would have suffered the same fate. It would have been unsustainable from a money making point of view.And I seriously believe that a lot of the classic songs would not have come about since the economics of producing these would not have warranted the investment if they had been targetted to an underground market.

[QUINNY]

Originalbigm: Gamble & Huff were already well established prior to Disco and I like to think that Rodgers & Edwards would have still made it. Same probably goes for Moroder et al.
What I can't absolutely decide is, could we have had all the marvellous records without the dross, had it not become over commercialized? The Soul and Funk movements were well established before Disco and they were producing hits, so I reckon it could have. Ask me another day and I'll possibly say the reverse.

[efunk_adelic]

Originalbigm: Gamble & Huff were already well established prior to Disco and I like to think that Rodgers & Edwards would have still made it.

bigm & Quinny,

I don't think either one of these producers & musicians thought they were making disco records. The songs were traditional soulful, somewhat funky & danceable. All material was well written and produced. However, I'm sure that someone would argue that Chic wasn't a r&b act and was more disco.... Chic music didn't have the traditional thump, thump, thump as in disco records of that time.

[the whistler]

Had "Disco" stayed underground,Disco would of died (hate that word )earlier and they certainly wouldn't of had demolition night July 12 1979 (it's almost the 25th Anniversary of this infamous day you know) :cry:
IMHO it was better too have had the crossover than not as we wouldn't have had such great music/artists

[originalbigm]

Originalbigm: Gamble & Huff were already well established prior to Disco and I like to think that Rodgers & Edwards would have still made it. Same probably goes for Moroder et al.
What I can't absolutely decide is, could we have had all the marvellous records without the dross, had it not become over commercialized? The Soul and Funk movements were well established before Disco and they were producing hits, so I reckon it could have. Ask me another day and I'll possibly say the reverse.

Yes,but it was the disco scene exposure that elevated the status of these artists and producers and the question is valid would they have achieved that level without it!Disco certainly contributed to music being exposed to the masses that might have otherwise wallowed on some program director's desk because they weren't getting the demand for it.Radio and the like had become less record breaking by the mid70's.Disco's were breaking the records.Hence the huge amount of promo material coming through record companies to the DJ's and clubs.They recognized where the buzz was being created.I don't know what it was like for other club DJ's here but I recall having a hell of time sifting through the weekly onslaught of material I was receiving and getting it into my playlists in a balanced manner.I am convinced in my opinion that had disco not become commercialized we certainly would not have had some of the gems that did materialize.

By the way on the other note of disco being a dirty word sadly I heard a line on my faithfully watched Coronation Street (Sunday mornings).It was two of the female characters deciding on where to go for a girl's night out.One of them suggested a disco.The other replied that these days the word "Disco" and good time are not synonomous and that it conjured up images of rope lights,flashing lights and middle aged men in polyester suits trying to be cool. :cry:

[Mixmachine]

[quote="originalbigm
Yes,but it was the disco scene exposure that elevated the status of these artists and producers and the question is valid would they have achieved that level without it![/quote]

And what this status has to do with the quality of the musical product? , they were producing great music before SNF and were financially rewarded for their efforts by the followers of R&B, Funk and Disco music , granted not a very large financial piece of the pie, but this should not be the primary consideration for creating music (or any art) Right? .

Fact is that SNF precipitated the Corp America onslaught that swallowed up many small local Labels/Productions that were the staple of “underground” Disco music (and R&B, Soul, Funk) destroying a fresh pool of innovated sounds not constrained by the bottom line but only by the limits of their talents, once the Corporate world try to sway the masses away from their beloved Rock world and into the Disco camp the end was very near, and why?
Because Disco and the associated “Disco Lifestyle” (Clubbing and all it’s related vises and activities) were not for everyone! The great majority on America was happy with their ‘Head Rock Music’ and hippie culture, and IMO that’s the way it should have stayed, sometimes less equals more!.

[DiscoMan]

middle aged men in polyester suits trying to be cool

I might be middle aged BUT I don't and never did wear polyester suits :-?

Avoided the most cliched dress back in the '70's.
Had one pair of platform heels - hated 'em and threw 'em away. I prefered Cuban heels 8)

NEVER NEVER NEVER owned a liesure suit. Never wore the most garish colors and patterns. I always tried for a refined and subdued sense of Disco Style. And it worked well for me.

I don't havta try to be cool. I was cool then and I'm still cool.

Went out with the Missus last night and she told me I looked like a mafioso 8) :D

[DiscoMan]

Because Disco and the associated “Disco Lifestyle” (Clubbing and all it’s related vises and activities) were not for everyone! The great majority on America was happy with their ‘Head Rock Music’ and hippie culture, and IMO that’s the way it should have stayed, sometimes less equals more!.

Exactly why I said that SNF introduced Disco into parts of the country where it NEVER should have been introduced.
Disco fit in with the culture of the urban Northeast, Chicago, South Florida, LA.

NOT BumPhuck, Texas and JerkWater, KS.
They should have been left to their Texas Two Step and Sh1tkicker music.

[QUINNY]

Sometimes less is more.....Hmmmmm.......exactly my point originally.

So far as music being about art....hmmmmm....I think most musos do it for the money primarily and if good art comes out of it, that's the icing on the cake. They're only trying to make a living, after all is said and done and music making is a job.

[originalbigm]

And what this status has to do with the quality of the musical product? , they were producing great music before SNF and were financially rewarded for their efforts by the followers of R&B, Funk and Disco music , granted not a very large financial piece of the pie, but this should not be the primary consideration for creating music (or any art) Right?

Not a very large financial piece is exactly the key words.How long do you think the record labels would continue to fund records that did not bring financial rewards to them.And financial gain is the primary consideration that record companies have when creating music.The initial cost of the recording is not what makes or breaks the record but the promotion behind it that does and if a record doesn't create a buzz you can be sure that precious little money is spent in promoting it.Status has plenty to do with quality of the music produced without status one has little chance of getting creative money for their projects and in the era of disco it has been well established that a lot of the work required huge budgets for production.That is one reason that disco suffered such a demise because as it's popularity waned the record companies were not seeing the return on their investments and began cutting financial support.Granted producers and artists may well have achieved success without disco being commercialized but again it begs the question how successful.Music is very much governed by the law of supply and demand.The more people who hear and accept your music the more they want and anticipate.

Fact is that SNF precipitated the Corp America onslaught that swallowed up many small local Labels/Productions that were the staple of ?underground? Disco music (and R&B, Soul, Funk) destroying a fresh pool of innovated sounds not constrained by the bottom line but only by the limits of their talents

Prior to SNF which was released in Dec 1977.For the two years prior Atlantic,CBS,RCA,Polydor and Motown had been putting out 12" disco promos.

Because Disco and the associated ?Disco Lifestyle? (Clubbing and all it?s related vises and activities) were not for everyone!

You'd have trouble convincing anyone that in the mid-late 70's disco and it's associated lifestyle wasn't participated in by the masses in North America.But then again heavy metal,country,classical,jazz,new wave,techno etc.etc. isn't for everyone

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Heres my oppinion, disco really never did go mainstream cause the real music never made it out of the clubs (at least in the USA). I agree with Discoman on the point of the cowboys and cowgirls areas shoulda never known anything about it. But hey, they'll never get it and never will (I was married to a bumbfuck woman for 4 years..trust me..they dont know nothin bout the real stuff LOL). Disco music never died and is still going strong today in the underground like it has been for over 20 + years with new original disco being made (mainly, alot of French current club music). Techno, its just an out of hand evolution of electronic disco and house music..the name "house" came from the old Chicago disco "Wherehouse". As for this rave **** and the whole concept...it's morning music gone out of hand and the concept..well..I would say the original "rave" was goin on at Trocadero and clubs alike back in the good ol days. So, to the mainstream small minded eye, they all say "disco sucks, discos dead, john travolta" etc. But little do they know that they love disco. One time I remember the first time I ever spun for anyone was back in the mid 90s at a small get together and I was having to play all the current stuff at the time. I slipped into the mix Giorgio's Utopia and Cerrone's Supernature within the corse of the night and people were askin me and I quote "yo dude that is some dope ****, when is that hittin' the stores?". I rest my case :lol:

DJ Jimmy M

[Mixmachine]

[quote="QUINNY"]Sometimes less is more.....Hmmmmm.......exactly my point originally.

I’m sorry for missing your earlier point man, you are too deep for me, :lol:

So far as music being about art....hmmmmm....I think most musos do it for the money primarily and if good art comes out of it, that's the icing on the cake. They're only trying to make a living, after all is said and done and music making is a job.

I’m in complete disagreement with you, through out history the great majority of Artist followed this carrier path first and foremost for the “passion” of their craft, without passion they wouldn’t survive the hardships and the long road to success (if ever), it is only later in their careers that some (not all) are overcome by greed and the lure of easy money at the expense of unsuspecting fans.. You probably think there is a world wide UFO conspiracy too. :lol:

[Mixmachine]

originalbigm
"Not a very large financial piece is exactly the key words.How long do you think the record labels would continue to fund records that did not bring financial rewards to them."

Large Labels were making plenty before SNF, R&B,Soul,Funk was a thriving Biz in all levels (including Blaxplotation films) and urban America along bought enough vinyl to maintain a steady profitable operation, GREED after SNF is what drove labels to over-reach and destroy the goose that layed the egg.



"Status has plenty to do with quality of the music produced without status one has little chance of getting creative money for their projects and in the era of disco it has been well established that a lot of the work required huge budgets for production"

There was plenty of status to go around among loyal fans of this music, trying to expand into the rock area was an un wise decision for the long run, some of the best R&B and Disco music of the 70's was made before SNF, many with lavish productions that sold millions to R&B and club music lovers....



"That is one reason that disco suffered such a demise because as it's popularity waned the record companies were not seeing the return on their investments and began cutting financial support."

and this exactly my point , big companies moved in, failed and ruined everything for every one!! all after SNF

"Granted producers and artists may well have achieved success without disco being commercialized but again it begs the question how successful."

Succesful enough, greed kills!

"Music is very much governed by the law of supply and demand.The more people who hear and accept your music the more they want and anticipate".

Granted , but in the case of Disco the masses were not ready for this abrupt change, hence the 'Disco Sucks" backlash..

"Prior to SNF which was released in Dec 1977.For the two years prior Atlantic,CBS,RCA,Polydor and Motown had been putting out 12" disco promos."

Right, and they were mainly marketed towards the club scene.

Because Disco and the associated ?Disco Lifestyle? (Clubbing and all it?s related vises and activities) were not for everyone!

"You'd have trouble convincing anyone that in the mid-late 70's disco and it's associated lifestyle wasn't participated in by the masses in North America".

From my personal experience and recollections of the times even by 1976-77 (pre-SNF) your average american never even knew what a Discotech was, much less what kind of music was played in there, Rock bars and inhouse bands were the norm, taking "Rock Heads" friends to a Disco for the first time was like flying to the moon for them..

"But then again heavy metal,country,classical,jazz,new wave,techno etc.etc. isn't for everyone[/quote]"

And you'd be correct, I never saw many Classical music lovers getting down with James Brown at the Disco. :lol:

PS:As much as I try I cant figure out the multiple 'quote' function :x

[QUINNY]

Maybe it's because Disco was sooo underground in the US, that its rise was always going to be meteoric and overplayed.

In Europe as a whole, discos were a more accepted way of life, with many, many people being exposed to them on their annual holidays to places like Spain and Italy. I know, 'cos of my DJing in Spain, that many people were not regular disco goers pre SNF, but that didn't stop them boogeying and having a damned good time and supposedly they would have gone to clubs on a more regular basis, if their holiday experience turned 'em onto Disco.

O.K. Musicians do strive for something great, but I firmly believe that success is very much an accident for many and down to being in the right place at the right time. There are always those few who are destined for greatness, simply because they are better than anyone else. For most musos I've ever known, playing is about survival. Bear in mind that many musos are what they are 'cos they couldn't be doing with a 9-5 job and are lured by the prospect of easy money, fame, women etc. Of course, music can be anything but easy.

[originalbigm]

Large Labels were making plenty before SNF, R&B,Soul,Funk was a thriving Biz in all levels (including Blaxplotation films) and urban America along bought enough vinyl to maintain a steady profitable operation,

And these genres still exist today but I believe we were discussing DISCO music.These were the sub genres of disco. They were the foundation and building blocks.These styles never suffered the fate that disco did.People still enjoy R&B and Soul music today and you sure aren't looked at with jaundiced eyes if you say you are an R&B enthusiast.If all that discos ever played were soul R&B or Funk we wouldn't be having this discussion let alone this website.

some of the best R&B and Disco music of the 70's was made before SNF, many with lavish productions that sold millions to R&B and club music lovers....

So 1978 and 1979 were not the prime years for great disco music production and that the largest amount of disco records were not sold in those years?

Succesful enough, greed kills!

Sucessful enough by whose standards.Are we suggesting that it was the artists and producers own greed that precipitated this.I recall a time when people would lineup to buy and listen to the newest releases by artists and producers simply because of past performance.(eg Stevie Wonder,Michael Jackson.The Beatles.The Stones etc.) Would we class them as greedy.Would we suggest that maybe they were producing too much great music.

but in the case of Disco the masses were not ready for this abrupt change, hence the 'Disco Sucks" backlash..

I certainly disagree with this contention.Rap which is as an abrupt change in dare I say music ,sorry folks but it is classed as a music genre,has not suffered such a backlash.Again I suggest that the so called masses had embraced the genre wholeheartedly.All races and nationalities as well as age groups had enjoyed disco at it's peak. People where not standing on the sidelines wondering what the hell was this phenomena called disco.Hell even the rock artists tried to capitlize on it and why?They and the record companies believed at the time that they needed to produce disco style records to keep in the spotlight.And their offerings were eagerly swallowed up by the masses.

I will continue to argue that had it not been for the commercialization of disco we may have well not had the hits
and artists that sprung up because of this movement.Even the great artists of the era could not sustain their careers after it ended.Donna Summer,Gloria Gaynor,The Trammps,The Salsoul Orchestra,Chic to name but a few.The whole purpose of music is too bring enjoyment to the masses and it's difficult if not impossible to do it without radio or media exposure which in it's self is driven by profits and commercialization and that's exactly what happened with disco and is happening with Rap and Hip Hop which I sadly contend is greater than disco in terms of money making and commercialization.Unfortunately I don't see anyone trying to organize a "Burn Your Rap Records" day.

[Jimmy-Michaels]

Hey...id be there in a heartbeat if there was a burn rap/hip hop or rap/hip hop sucks rally :lol: Unfortunatly I wouldnt have a rap or hip hop CD to bring into the rally to burn! I do have some rap records but they are from the days when rap was fun and disco/funk like :D

[QUINNY]

[quote="originalbigm

I will continue to argue that had it not been for the commercialization of disco we may have well not had the hits
and artists that sprung up because of this movement.Even the great artists of the era could not sustain their careers after it ended.Donna Summer,Gloria Gaynor,The Trammps,The Salsoul Orchestra,Chic to name but a few.The whole purpose of music is too bring enjoyment to the masses and it's difficult if not impossible to do it without radio or media exposure which in it's self is driven by profits and commercialization and that's exactly what happened with disco and is happening with Rap and Hip Hop which I sadly contend is greater than disco in terms of money making and commercialization.Unfortunately I don't see anyone trying to organize a "Burn Your Rap Records" day.[/quote]

I guess it all depends on where one draws the line regarding success and its rewards. Every musician I've ever known is very egotistical and therefore it's almost impossible for them not to be greedy in an indirect way. The more they sell, the more their egos are fuelled, therefore they're gonna want to sell more records.

As for Chic, The Trammps, Gloria Gaynor etc etc surely one of the reasons they didn't last after Disco was simply because they were so very much of the time. The record companies would have dropped 'em like stones, once they started selling less records. That is the natural way of things. It's not just Disco artists that suffer. So, without SNF et al, I still believe their careers might have been more sustainable in the longer term. They would have made a good living, but without the megabucks and the art sucking fractured egos, once huge, then suddenly reduced back to normal levels. That in itself would have been an enormously traumatic experience. Enough to stop anyone from making hit records anymore. Instead of steady growth, they suffered boom and bust. It's understandible, isn't it?

[originalbigm]

Agree entirely with you Quinny .I was simply stating the obvious and you confirmed what I was arguing.It was the commercialization of disco that made these people the stars they were and when it went down the tubes they got sucked along with the backwash.I certainly doubt that had disco remained underground that these artists would have achieved the heights they did.Their status as disco divas and premier acts of the time caused us to demand more.Think about when you received your weekly allotment of promos you'd rifle through them and pick out the heavies to review first. If it was a new Donna Summer or Cerrone offering it was the first one on your turntable. And let's be realistic I don't know about other parts of the world but in this neck of the woods disco was no longer underground as of 1975.There were many commercial disco venues popping up as well as disco/funk artists beginning the tour of nightclubs,theatres and arenas.SNF simply capsulized the trend and opened it up to middle age and older North Americans who embraced it as happy good time music that didn't come with labelling.They could dress in their finest and go out and actual dance.They didn't feel out of place in a disco. Disco made touch dancing acceptable to all ages.Arthur Murray were signing up people in droves to teach them how to hustle.Clubs were offering free disco dance lessons. The hustle and salsa styles were a huge part of the disco scene which we tend to forget or at least never seem to mention in our discussions but two people who could hustle like their was no tomorrow were attention getters in any club and it was sheer delight to see them dance interpret the song that was playing.Dance contests were in vogue and highly competitive.SNF may have caused the exploitation of disco but it also created a frenzy of disco music in the following couple of years.And like the monday morning armchair quarterback hindsight is twenty twenty and we can all sit back and lament about what could have been ,shoulda have been or what may have been.Most of us who were in our prime at the time embraced that groundswell and rode it to it's heights.Loving every minute of it.Thinking it would just never end.And I certainly wouldn't have had it any other way because that was the reality and thank god I was blessed to have lived and worked in it's day.Unfortunately the younger members on this website will never come to know what a magical time that era was.Like Woodstock if you weren't there then you just can't relate.That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[Mixmachine]

Originalbigm,

I was preparing a long response, but it takes too much of my time, and besides I can tell you are pretty well set in your opinion.
Let’s say that I disagree with many points of your argument especially your definition of “Disco” and the fate of Funk and Soul after SNF
Here is a recent pertinent quote to this debate, just swap Hip Hop for Disco…...

“Hip Hop is not something we do, it’s something we live, it’s the way we dress the way we talk….everybody bobbing to the same beat. It’s a culture, and you have to find your own place in that culture. Top 10 or Top 40 can’t dictate that. They can only dictate what’s marketable” Erykah Badu