Does Anyone Know...?

[markydefad]

I'm looking for the following tunes on CD in their full 12" versions. I've checked the All Music Guide and while it tells me that some of these are on cd, it doesn't give me the timings. Does anyone have the full-length versions of the following on CD?



"I Got To Have Your Love" - Fantastic Four

"Feel The Need" - Detroit Emeralds (Tom Moulton Remix from 1977)

"24 Hours A Day" - Barbara Pennington

"Love Machine" - Tempest Trio



Any info appreciated. Thanks.

[markydefad]

Uh, guys & gals, are you telling me by your SILENCE that NOONE has any of these records on CD?



Surely, someone has the Greatest Hits of Barbara Pennington, Fantastic Four, or Detroit Emeralds; all say the songs I want are on the CD's, but none give timings, so I'm assuming they are all radio edits.



Doesn't anyone have the 411 on this?

[paul]

You're not being ignored, at least by me. I just don't have any info on this.

[markydefad]

Paul, I sounded a little petulant, I realize, but it was meant to be humorous. If no one knows, no big whoop--but, with all the obscure stuff people compare notes on here, these records seem pretty mainstream. Anyway, they're all really good and I want 'em.

[BrunoRepublic]

Well, I can *make* a CD of 24 Hours A Day, but I don't have any of the others...

[markydefad]

Hey Graham,



Thanks for the offer. That would be great. Do you have the 12 inch? By the way, how does one get into that select circle of folks who receive the Graham Start restorations I read about here from time to time?



If you'd rather not get into this on the board, please e-mail me. Thanks.



Mark

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: markydefad on 2001-11-07 12:27 ]</font>

[BrunoRepublic]

Check your email

[Giovanni]

.... buy vinyl!!!!!

[markydefad]

Hey Graham,



I e-mailed to the primus.ca address you gave me and I just got a notice that it was undeliverable (the recipient name is not recognized). What now, my love? Will the Hotmail address listed work? Let me know. Thanks.



Mark

[BrunoRepublic]

Ack.. did I put a typo in that message I sent? It should be bruce.bartlett@primus.ca ... I *know* it's working; I just tested it... oh yeah, and I get about 100 messages a day from various mailing lists.



If that still fails (internet quirkiness, it happens) then yeah, my Hotmail address is still there, but I've been trying to wean myself off of it.



BTW, it turns out that my copy of this is in pretty rough shape, so this might take a while.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Graham Start on 2001-11-07 19:17 ]</font>

[ehuerta]

"24 hours a day", Barbara Pennington 3:21 from "The Best of Barbara Pennington" CD

"Love Machine", Tempest Trio 5:25 from "The Best of TK Records" CD



BTW, Almighty Records released an updated remix of "24 hours a day" 8:14

and a cover of "Feel the need" by Utopia

[JussiK]

On 2001-11-07 16:20, Giovanni wrote:

.... buy vinyl!!!!!

Right on Giovanni!

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2001-11-07 23:28, ehuerta wrote:

"24 hours a day", Barbara Pennington 3:21 from "The Best of Barbara Pennington" CD

12" version clocks in at 9:22. One of the most over-extended tracks I have ever come across!

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2001-11-08 01:28, JussiK wrote:

On 2001-11-07 16:20, Giovanni wrote:

.... buy vinyl!!!!!

Right on Giovanni!

(Gets on soapbox)



Sorry guys... but I firmly believe that if we are to keep disco alive, we need to put it on a format that is widely accessible. If people don't by disco CDs, they won't make any more of them. Now for the ten of you who already own every single disco record ever, that's no big deal. But for the rest of us, it is. Case in point: the "Disco Forever" compilation is chock full o' ridiculously obscure tracks, some of which are worth a fortune today (like Universal Robot Band's "Barely Breaking Even"). There are probably only a couple hundred copies left of most of those songs. You can't just tell someone to "buy vinyl" for tracks like those; because you can't find them for love or money. You might as well try to buy Rembrandt paintings.



The 12-inch of "24 Hours A Day" is out of print in all forms. If you can't find it used, you can't have it. Period. There are only so many copies of these records out there, and every day there are a few less to be had (although I concede that in this case, the record is relatively common... but that's not the point). In my town, there's a huge difference between now and even two years ago when it comes to buying vinyl. I've hardly bought anything locally in the last few months even though there's more and more that I want, because there's almost nothing to be found, and there are fewer places to go to. The owners of the shops I frequent tell me that people just aren't selling their vinyl like they used to. So what is one to do? I shell out big bucks to buy some stuff on the net, but I lot of the records that I want aren't to be found anywhere. If we want the music to survive, we need to accept the fact that not everyone can have it on the original format.



As for the sound quality -- I readily concede that the 16-bit 44.1 kHz CD standard isn't the greatest, and I plan to do my restorations in 24/96 once I upgrade my PC in the hopes that future audio formats will take advantage of them. Then again, millions of people seem perfectly happy with MP3s, which is the worst-sounding format since the 8-track tape, as high-speed tape dubbing had a long way to go back then (BTW, I own a ton of 8-tracks, so I can vouch for this). But the arguement that vinyl is "pure" sound is absolute BULLSHIT. If you know anything about how a record is mastered, you know how compromised the signal path is. Two stages of EQ de-emphasis/emphasis, compression, can't have low frequencies out of phase, and headroom steadily decreases as the groove gets toward the centre. The sound gets so mucked around from the time it's cut to the time it hits your ears that it's amazing it's recognizeable at all. And then there's the surface noise -- which gets a little bit worse each time you play the disc, effectively destroying the sound. The general explanation of "but that's how the artists wanted their music to sound" is a load of crap. A handful of artists might like surface noise, but I'll best most did not appreciate the fact that their works had to be compressed, have the signal from 7 kHz on up steadily cut as the disc plays, or tolerate the distortion at the end of each side. But at the time, it was really the only option. The whole reason that the 12" single was created was *because* vinyl basically sucks. The problem with 12s is that vinyl was not designed to handle these signal levels... so again, you get terrible distortion and/or major treble loss at the end of each side. Having a very high-end stylus/cartridge/tonearm can reduce the distortion somewhat, but this is well beyond what most people can afford (and certainly not what your club DJ would be using).



And then there is the quality of the presings themselves. Many disco labels used appallingly bad vinyl -- AVI, need I say more? Some people seem to be able to tune out enormous amounts of surface noise. Good for them. Personally, I'm always amazed at how much more of the *music* I can hear after I've corrected the EQ and pulled out all the clicks and rumble. Vinyl wasn't the most popular format back then because it was the best thing ever -- it was only the best thing at the time.



(wipes foam off mouth)



So please, spare us the "buy vinyl" arguement. Even with my tirade aside, there's dozens of records I would happily purchase... but I'm not likely to ever find them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Graham Start on 2001-11-08 09:15 ]</font>

[Bernie]

Graham,



While you raise many valid points, I feel that you've taken Giovanni's and Jussi's comments too seriously. I'm pretty sure that if we were able to see them face to face there would have been a little wink-wink and light-hearted nudge on the shoulder to go along with their remarks. Truth be known, Jussi is a big Minidisc and CD fan Right Jussi?



Back to vinyl, while it has many faults, I still love the warm sound and the great full-size artwork that usually goes with it. I sometimes don't even notice the occassional imperfections since I'm more into the music. Even so, I am getting a little used to the sterile sound of CDs.



What kind of playback equipment do you have? Later...

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2001-11-08 09:55, Bernie wrote:

Graham,



While you raise many valid points, I feel that you've taken Giovanni's and Jussi's comments too seriously. I'm pretty sure that if we were able to see them face to face there would have been a little wink-wink and light-hearted nudge on the shoulder to go along with their remarks.

Well if that's the case, then I do apologize for going off like that. But I have come across a number of people who present such irrational arguements when it comes to this...

Back to vinyl, while it has many faults, I still love the warm sound and the great full-size artwork that usually goes with it.

On this I will glady agree. The wonderful cover art on many of these LPs is stunning. You just can't get pull it off with a CD. I almost bought Björk's "Homogenic" on vinyl just to have the sleeve.

I sometimes don't even notice the occassional imperfections since I'm more into the music.

The problem I'm having is that more often than not, the imperfections aren't occasional.

Even so, I am getting a little used to the sterile sound of CDs.

Have you ever heard a Marantz CD player? I bought one a few years ago on the advice of the dealer, and I was pleasantly surprised. I wasn't expecting it to sound any different that my old Sony -- but it really does. Not brighter or heavier, but more... detailed. It's kind of hard to explain.



One point that I do wish to point out is that many CDs, especially ones from the 80s, were badly mastered and really bring out the shortcomings of 16/44.1. Back in the day, the engineers were so thrilled about the lack of surface noise that they overlooked a lot of other flaws. Often they would use the same master for the CD that was used for cutting the LP, which is a big mistake, as the LP's master would've been created to compensate for the EQ and processing at the cutting stage. So the CD would sound thin and glassy... this is why you're seeing all these albums that have been on CD for years suddenly get "digitally remastered".



Also, a lot of disco CD reissues are done to appallingly low standards -- Unidisc and Hot Productions have some truly dreadful discs out there.

What kind of playback equipment do you have?

My system is what I would call "somewhat above average". NAD integrated amp, Mission speakers (I've always lived in apartments, so there's no sense in getting massive woofers or anything like that), low-end Marantz CD player as described above, Dual turntable with Ortofon cartridge. The turntable is not high-end by any means, but it's the best detail/price ratio that I could find. The drawback is that there's very little bass with this cartridge, so I have to run it through EQ anyway.



I'm considering getting a new turntable, but here I'm at a loss. I'm concerned mainly with sound quality as I have no aspirations to be a DJ. On one hand, it seems like everyone's got a Technics 1200, but then all the audiophiles tell me stuff like "don't waste your money, that's a DJ's turntable, it's built for manhandling and not sound quality". Others tell me the opposite: "The 1200 was originally designed as a top-of-the-line unit for the consumer market, it can produce great sound, you just need to get a good cartridge and stylus and you're set".



Any suggestions? My main pet peeve of vinyl is inner-groove distortion... and I don't have $75,000 for a laser turntable I know Shure makes a cart/stylus that's quite good for this, but it costs more than a 1200 itself.

[Bernie]

Graham,



I had just been busy finishing up a HUGE, and I mean huge, post in response to yours when the power clicked out for a split second and I lost everything.



I'm too pissed and lost my train of thought to even rewrite, but hope to later tonight if I have time. Sorry.



PS: the Technics 1200's are nice and I have two, but they are NOT audipphile tables. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Buy a used Rega Planar, VPI or NAD with a Grado cart.

[Paulo]

Hello everyone!



Ok, vinyl is fine, but if you listened to the restorations Graham does, you would have to agree with him. The man makes a PERFECT job! The sound is FANTASTIC!!!



Besides, there were a lot of obscure disco albums I have been searching for years... (Rinder And Lewis productions)... They are really hard to find items. Graham actually OWNS the VINYLS. He denoised them, restored the music, which now plays INTACT in its original form, but free from the scratches made a long time ago in those old vinyl albums.



I've been searching these records for 22 years and it was absolutetly impossible to find them here in my country. Now, with internet, it became a little bit easier to locate them, but still they are really obscure and it is still difficult to find them. Sometimes when we do, the copy is so worn out and screched that, although it is worthwhile possessing it, it isn't worthwhile listening to it.



So if it wasn't for Graham's work, I would probably never listen to the music I've been searching for.



It was a unique opportunity he give me. His intentions are great: to spread disco-music to the largest number of people as possible, although the world treats it as if it had never existed.



I think that if we can access rare music and enjoy it, then the CDs have fulfilled its obligations.



Graham also restores the ORIGINAL ALBUM. He is not doing greatest hits disco compilations. We have instant access to the ORIGINAL LP, released at the time in its full majestic glory. But this we can only achieve through CD, since the albums are long unavailable, deleted and scratched.



Bye

Thank you

Paulo

[JussiK]

Graham - actually one CAN find all kinds of stuff, all it takes is endless hours of rampaging throgh junk shops. Trust me I've done it for 20 years or more. Wherever I go it's right at the top of the agenda - sleazy parts of towns, back streets, fleamarkets looking for that 12" of PRETTY MAID by The Pretty Maid Company . The stuff IS there.

[JussiK]

[quote]

But I have come across a number of people who present such irrational arguements when it comes to this...



[quote]



Well..obsessed people are of course far from being rational. We are just the way we are. My wife still gets mortified after all these years when people exchange knowing looks when she tells them why Jussi will not be present at lunch or the art exhibition. "It's this thing he has for dusty old vinyl records, would you believe..." - Bernie mentioned the minidiscs. Those are actually rather great as one can shuffle the tracks around, wipe out the crappy ones, add new titles and write down names. Perfect for outdoor activities and for letting you listen to rare cuts from someone's collection. Next best thing to a pair of Technics 1200 I'd say!

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2001-11-12 06:06, JussiK wrote:



Graham - actually one CAN find all kinds of stuff, all it takes is endless hours of rampaging throgh junk shops.

I know, I know, I do the same thing... but I don't travel very often (I'm going to NY in a couple of weeks; first time I've been anywhere), and believe me, I've really exhausted the local resources. Canada was the first country to completely cease production of vinyl, I'll have you know...



...even more worrisome is that an alarming number of good record shops -- both new and used -- have closed their doors recently. Sam's, once the major national chain and the only place that had a decent selection of disco on CD, filed for bankruptcy a couple of weeks ago. Soon there will be nothing left here but HMV, who suck some serious ass.

- Bernie mentioned the minidiscs. Those are actually rather great as one can shuffle the tracks around, wipe out the crappy ones, add new titles and write down names. Perfect for outdoor activities and for letting you listen to rare cuts from someone's collection. Next best thing to a pair of Technics 1200 I'd say!

I love the MiniDisc format myself; but I'm probably the only person in my country who owns a deck (at least it seems like it). Can't wait for the NetMD units to come out, which will finally allow for full integration with the PC.

[djoem]

check out http://www.21centurymusic.com and http://www.vinylmania.com if they dont have it no one will

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2001-11-12 11:29, djoem wrote:

check out http://www.21centurymusic.com and http://www.vinylmania.com if they dont have it no one will

Then no-one has it.

[djoem]

sorry about that i was looking for years for caught your act from the hues corp and jump to the beat from stephie lattisaw and 21 music had

all of then so that why i said to check them out

if u know of any better record shops list them i will try them

[Masdefi]

On 2001-10-24 12:18, markydefad wrote:

"I Got To Have Your Love" - Fantastic Four

Any info appreciated. Thanks.

I've got "I Got To Have Your Love" - Fantastic Four from Westbound Records. It clocks in at 5:10.

I think this is the longer existing version.

Do you want it?



BTW, did you give a listen to my locker in myplay.com?