Recommend a new cd-player!

[Sami M]

Hello folks!

I'm about to upgrade my home hi-fi set (=cd & amp) and all recommendations are wellcome. I thought I ask you too, becouse of the similiar music taste. I want other opinions besides those most usual ones from classic or jazz enthusiasts.

So can you name a few players in the 1000 - 1500 $/€ price range? Or can you warn about some models/manufacturers?

[Bernie]

Perhaps it is time for me to upgrade my aging Teac VRDS-10 CD player so I am in the same boat as you. While my unit is solidly built and has a wonderful soundstage along with being able to play CD-Rs, it doesn't play any of the newer fangled discs like DVD-Audio, SACD, HDCD or the compressed formats such as MP3 / AAC.

Are you looking for a dedicated audio CD player or combo unit? It seems with so many formats it would be wise to get a CD player that can play as many of them as possible without compromising sound or build quality. I have never been a fan of combo units, but I am flirting with the Phillips DVD-963SA, which is a CD audio and DVD video player as well as the Pioneer DV-563A that can play DVD-Audio and SACD. My main gripes are the build quality compared to my Teac is pathetic. This could be key as it really bothers me hence my overall desire to stay with an audio only unit.

If it's an audio only machine you seek the Adcom, Linn Genki or perhaps the Rega Planet 2000 (cool looking top loader) look very appealing in their price range. Then again I am also entertaining the idea of extracting all the music I have and using my Mac as a digital front end and controlling it all through there and keeping what I have.

Still vacillating on this one so we'll see where it goes.

[Forrrce]

I hear you on the multi-format argument, Bernie. I have several CD players and a Cambridge DAC-to-MF X10-D valve unit, which I've settled on longest so far.

I'd thought about SACD and HDCD, but since I got a DVD writer drive for £99 and buy blanks on the 'net for as little as 79p each, I've decided to hold out for DVD-Audio. The titles cost around the same as a their CD equivalents and hopefully someday, an affordable DVD-Audio authoring package will be available. I think DVD is the future, as far as audio is concerned.

I had a second-hand TEAC transport for a short while - it was gold, weighed a ton and was packed with more machinery than the average factory. I thought it was going to be missing link in the chain - but despite its formidable build, my 'problem' discs still jumped and sonically, it was a bit on the thin side. Until that point, I didn't believe that a transport unit could have its own sound.

If our prospective buyer here is not too concerned about SACD/HDCD compatibility, I would suggest getting one of the Pioneer 'stable platter mechanism' drives as a transport - and using it with a DAC of choice. The stable platter is a mini-turntable on bearings, with a 3-beam pick-up...and if a CD is even vaguley playable, this sytem will track it, no trouble. HHB and another company or two have utilised this technology on some of their CD writers and players. Like so many of Pioneer's little innovations, I don't think the SPM took off - so any remaining stock is probably pretty cheap now.

[Bernie]

I think DVD is the future, as far as audio is concerned.

Same here which is why I think I should consider this format strongly.

I had a second-hand TEAC transport for a short while

Which Teac did you have? I've had my VRDS-10 since 1996 when I bought it new from my former employer at cost. A $1200. machine for a little over $600. so I couldn't pass it up. The thing is I can probably get $300.-400. on eBay for it despite its age as I have all boxes, manual and remote and it is the same transport as the Wadia.

It seems to me that getting what I can now before it goes any lower in value would be wiser and putting that towards a newer and better unit with DVD-Audio. I thought about using the Teac just as a transport, but go back to my wish to be able to play the newer formats.

I would suggest getting one of the Pioneer 'stable platter mechanism' drives as a transport - and using it with a DAC of choice

These were the ones that played the CD label side down and had some pretty good feedback. Interesting point you make. Are they making that mechanism with DVD-Audio playback?

Despite whatever unit I get, it seems like I will at some point be using my Mac as a digital front end to manage everything. Storage space is getting much cheaper to make it feasable. I started experimenting a while back extracting some tracks and really like the ability to neatly catalogue, search & locate and making playlists of music. We'll see.

[Forrrce]

Annoyingly, Bernie, I don't remember the product number of the Teac drive - only that it was a V - something-or-other and looked a bit like this:


I think it only had transport buttons and nothing else (no remote either) - and it was deeper than it was wide. I had it about 5 years ago and I reckon it was at least 5 years old at the time. I can't even remember the price - I bought it with exchange - but I think it was around £700 though I could be way off. Maybe the picture and description ring bells for you?

As for Pioneer, I think they've abandoned the SPM system. Some of their earlier DVD players may have used it, but I haven't noticed it on any recent machines.

Incidentally, the two SPM CDs I have are the Pioneer PDS-06 and the HHB CDR-800 recorder.

Again, if a CD-separates set-up is your thing, one could do worse.

[K-Bee]

Sami,
No matter what you do, be sure to stay away from anything named DENON. I know a few people who bought players by that brand only to find out that break easier than a crystal champagne glass. As a Denon owner - be prepared to take it back to the shop for adjustment / repair within 6 months time.

I actually always been a NAD owner myself. my first NAD player lasted for almost 12 years without any repairs needed...and believe me, I used it a lot. Therefore the choice was easy for me when buying a new CD player a week ago. Obviously I went for the NAD stuff again. They do offer a wide range of models within a wide price range.

BTW do you guys remember the Phillips CD-100?? that was the first cd player commercially available as far as remember and came complete with top loading and space-ship like design. I'd wish they'd bring it back :lol:

[Sami M]

Yes, I'm thinking about the combo players too. I don't believe that SACD will be the format of tomorrow, maybe it's the dvd along with mps. Recently found out that new mp4 is coming, whatever that means.

But I'm mainly looking for a player with good sound quality. I had the Sony XA555ES (1300 $/€), which I wasn't quite happy with, and got rid of it few months ago. Since then I've had only the Pioneer dj cd-players, and am really getting tired to use them on normal play.

There appears to be new combo players from hi-fi labels such as Musical Fidelity, Primare, Lexicon etc., that play all silver discs, but they cost many times more than the usual Sony/Pioneer/HK stuff (2500 € and up). Besides I'm not very willing to pay for dvd player, since I allready have one bugdet sony dvd, which playes the mps aswell. I need no better dvd-player.

The problem with the combo players is usually, that the cd sound is not the best of the price range. Many times there are delays on cd-playing, so they are not so user friendly. These are the things to check out when buying.

I've been thinking about the music storage thing aswell. Yamaha has new audio only cd-recorder (999 €)which has 60GB hard-drive and can bee hooked up to computer for labelling etc.. This apparatus seems fascinating and would make my md-player useless. More handy than flaptop too. Then I could enjoy my records with just a touch of a button! I don't think it is sonically outstanding as a cd-player though.

If I could just go and shop every electronic gadget from the local hi-fi shop :o

In short, the combo players sound reasonable, but when will dvd audio be available in big time? It may well take 2-5 years and by that time it may well be time for a new player anyway. Those laser heads don't last forever. I'm not a friend of combo things either.

[BrunoRepublic]

Recently found out that new mp4 is coming, whatever that means.

It's been out for a while. MP4=AAC, or the format that Apple favours for the iPod.

Sonics aren't (usually) any better than MP3; the advantage is an even smaller file size.

Unfortunately, the popularity of compressed formats like MP3 and AAC, along with mastering that favours absurd hard-limiting and "smiley" EQ means that there is less and less reason to spend big bucks on a good audio system these days. Audio quality is going backwards, and a clear, detailed system will only reveal the shortcomings of modern productions and re-issues.

And it is quite possible that compressed formats will soon be the only way that music is distributed.

[Bernie]

And it is quite possible that compressed formats will soon be the only way that music is distributed.

Unfortunately, it seems as you are right Graham. Everyone is gearing up to sell AAC and even the lowly Windows Media files online. The only saving grace may be that with faster broadband options and the push of audiophiles, we may have the option of downloading uncompressed full fidelity AIFF files. However, since DRM (Digital Rights Management) are already built in to the compressed formats I don't see that happening.

[originalbigm]

A came across arather interesting note about vinyl,DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD from an article written this past July/2003 by Jon Iverson for Stereophile Magazine.

Quote:
"SACD and DVD-Audio may be getting all the format news these days, but here's an interesting statistic: sales of vinyl so far this year total 661,000 units, trouncing the 234,000 units sold by DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD combined. The vinyl collectors market is also hot, and VRD's founder, Gary Freiberg, says that his event is both a look back and a look forward "to promote the future of vinyl and to assure [that] the independent labels producing new artists and graphics on vinyl survive."

The event was Gary Freiberg's second Vinyl Record Day celebration in San Luis Obispo, CA on August 16/2003.

I'd like to know what the final numbers for last year would show.

[originalbigm]

Hello folks!

I'm about to upgrade my home hi-fi set (=cd & amp) and all recommendations are wellcome. I thought I ask you too, becouse of the similiar music taste. I want other opinions besides those most usual ones from classic or jazz enthusiasts.

So can you name a few players in the 1000 - 1500 $/? price range? Or can you warn about some models/manufacturers?

Here is an excellent review source for cd players that might fit your budget
http://www.stereophile.com

Check out the review for the "AH! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD player" in the Digital Source section

[BrunoRepublic]

I'd like to know what the final numbers for last year would show.

The new vinyl market is now down to three groups. I'm assuming that they would be, by sales,

- DJs
- Collectors (i.e. they have no intention of actually playing them, they just look at them)
- Analog audiophiles

It surprises me that vinyl is outselling SACD/DVD-A. I know of many major stores that are selling the hi-rez formats, but only a couple that have any vinyl at all. While DJ turntables and cartridges are widely available now, ones geared for listening and sound quality are quite scarce.

As seems par for the course lately (witness the format chaos with recordable DVDs), the hi-rez movement has shot itself in the foot by having two competing formats out at once (fortunately, we have universal players). But for the average consumer, the only advantage to hi-rez is multi-channel capability. Sonically, the masses are happy with 128kbps MP3s and CDs that have 1db of dynamic range. Consumers will always choose what is most convenient, not what sounds best.

[originalbigm]

Further to this discussion on vinyl vs new formats here are a couple of articles worth reading.

Enjoy The Music

Audio Revolution

[Bernie]

Some good reading there O. Thanks. Almost makes me not want to worry about going after DVD-Audio or SACD, but I think we'll have to give this time since one or the other will likely become the standard for new music releases.

[Mixmachine]

I have been enjoying SACD for a while now, one advantage for this format is better music selection, and Sony (and other labels) finally are releasing more and more “Hybrid” discs at a reasonable price (Stones for 9.99) that also play in all your existing standard red book CD players etc, a big issue for me because I listened to a lot of music in my car, besides this Hybrids will still be playable even if DVD-A becomes the standard.

Stand along SACD players have come down in price a lot lately and according to my readings 'top of the line' Sony models are as good as any out there for regular CD playback too, my player (SCD-CE775) was an entry level discontinued now (It sold for as low as $150 USD on sale) but to my ears it sounds superb and don’t feel any urge to upgrade to anything better yet.

PS: Finally ordered ‘The Best of the Three Degrees” can’t wait to listen to “Love is the message” and “TSOP” in high REZ.

[Sami M]

I remember the Philips cd-player, one relative of mine had it back in the day. It, like many B&O or almost any 70's hi-fi look much more appealing than most of the stuff today. What happened to innovative design?

Yes, I plan to stay away from Denon as well as from Sony, from which I have some very bad experience. :evil: Which reminded me, that I would very much like a cd-player that doesn't brake up after two years becouse of the daily use :roll:

[paul]

As a footnote to this topic. You guys might be right about DVD audio being the future format for another reason. I don't know how many of you Stereophile subscribers read a tiny response from Theta Digital on p. 137. There is reference to articles which describe the limitations of SACD compared to DVD. In fact I did a little research on this and it would appear that SACD is no better and perhaps even worse than cd over 10 kHz. DVD it seems is truly superior to cd and SACD technically it seems.
This may not mean much however because the best doesn't always win (Beta vs VHS) and quite frankly, XRCDs prove that when done properly, cds can finally match their promise.
As for my recomendation, I am pleased with my 3 year old Kenwood 406. It held it's own against a Meridian and tweaked Marantz. Until things settle down, if I were shopping for a new player, I would go for a moderately priced stand alone cd player. The multi-purpose players that are aren't megabuck Accuphase's for example, may sacrifice cd performance.

[QUINNY]

[quote="Graham_StartSonically, the masses are happy with 128kbps MP3s and CDs that have 1db of dynamic range. Consumers will always choose what is most convenient, not what sounds best.[/quote]

a). Music is a mass market (but fading) appealing to mass tastes.
b). The masses have little choice in what's offered to them. Why people get so emotional over music and then go and drive a Ford, shop for the cheapest food, buy cheap clothes etc, etc, etc, is beyond me.
c). Most people couldn't give a rat's ass about the more delicate nuances of sound (and who can blame them...they have a life and CD is good enough!).
d). If anyone thinks that all CDs have just 1dB range, they are mistaken.
e). I'll reiterate what I've written before. Unless recordings are made with microphones that have accurate frequency responses that extend to 40KHz, SACD, DVD and vinyl are very much a con. Sure, there will be small differences between a CD and SACD or DVD, but these are miniscule as none of the information beyond 20 KHz is actually recorded to any meaningful level on 99.999% of product that's out there. At the moment, until everything is recorded at 88.2KHz or 96 KHz sampling rate, using microphones that are flat to 40KHz through desks and outboard which also has the same extended bandwidth, the whole gambit is a nonsense!!!!

[Mixmachine]

so[/i] emotional over music and then go and drive a Ford, shop for the cheapest food, buy cheap clothes etc, etc, etc, is beyond me.
c). Most people couldn't give a rat's ass about the more delicate nuances of sound (and who can blame them...they have a life and CD is good enough!).

are this statements for real? :o :

I'm extremely glad that many great individuals through out man kind's history didn't subscribe to this 'got a life" "good enough" philosophy, other wise we could all very well still be hunting deer in the forest and shitting in the woods.

Well, since I've been known to stop over by my local McDonalds for breakfast on several occasions, and because I’m the happy owner of a great portion of the Sony/Phillips Empire and certainly must be trying to con you at every turn in this board, you shouldn’t even consider my humble observations on the Sonic quality of the 2CH "Three Degrees: When will I see you again" SA-CD, but just in case, I’m adding a couple of remarks for those that enjoy living dangerously; :lol:

Yesterday I finished listening and comparing this release with it’s vinyl and CD counterparts and was pleasantly surprised by the level of Sonic improvement achieved in this SACD version which IMO literally blows all others away, the improvements in the vocals definitions in cuts like “Dirty old man” are mesmerizing, all three singers come alive across the front stage and their solos are carefully placed and defined like nothing I ever heard before, the clarity achieved with all instruments is incredible too, one can clearly now pick up the background congas on ‘TSOP” or follow just about any instrument without much effort, in “Love is the message” the sax solo floats in the center stage like never before, and the girls voices are crystal clear, (unfortunately they used the 7” version), this are just a few of my layman observations of this SACD release, but once again I must remind you that you shouldn’t listen to me, after all according to some, I’m part of the conspiracy that is trying to con you out of your hard earned money.. :lol:

[QUINNY]

MixMachine: As you may or may not know I do sound recording professionally, but believe it or not I am not someone who worries about sound quality as much as many consumers do. Maybe, because I'm hearing stuff at source, I don't have a need to try and improve upon things so much, as these things invariably give me a miniscule return in real terms. As someone who earns money from recording, I have to have a certain level of detachment, otherwise I'd never earn a dime, as there's always something that claims to be the new bee's knees ready to part me from my hard earned cash.
That's not to say that I don't invest in new equipment, but if I do, it has to make a real difference. It's rather like, do you go from v.1.1 of a software to v.2.1, or wait until major changes in v.4.1. IMO, currently, with the lack of high end microphones being used, SACD is like only one version up from CD, it's fiddling with things.
Only twice in the past 20 years have I thought to myself "hell, that's so much better".

Firstly, when I started using Hi Fi video for mastering, instead of 15 ips reel to reel. The difference in quality of sound between the two was stunning. It was still analogue, but with less background hiss and much less wow & flutter and a truly flat response from 20Hz - 20KHz (so almost like digital). It's a shame the format proved to be less than robust and those Hi Fi video master tapes now show extreme signs of distress.

Secondly, believe it or not was not the advent of digital (I hated it for the first 3-6 months of use), but the purchase of a mains isolation transformer(conditioner). I bought a second hand B.B.C. unit that weighs a ton and cost me $350. It's basically just a huge transformer and capacitors? that helps to cut out mains borne interferance. You'd be amazed just how dirty most mains supplies are!
Instantly, there was less gunge in the background noise and everything started to sound so much sweeter.

Almost anything else I've bought have been minor tweaks by comparison, even my Earthworks microphones that cost me $1500 each.

[judydoggie]

My studio reference speakers and mixers are made by Mackie -- a remarkable company that really stands behind their products. My mixer's Protools LE Rack. All the other equipment I own, from video displays to audio distributors/compressors, CD players, Video Tape Recorders, Minidisc Recorders, CD/DVD recorders, are made by Sony. Go to www.bpcvalue.com. It's Sony's discount pro audio outlet. You never know what you're going to find. I purchased a $7,000 pro CD player that's so full of features it's silly (including working seamlessly with Protools as a controller) for $1,800. Most of the equipment on bpcvalue has been used once at trade shows and is still covered by Sony's warranty -- and, remember, this is NOT consumer stuff; it's all PRO.

[K-Bee]

:lol: It seems that old topics never die!
Which player did you actullay end up buying Sami??

[Sami M]

K-Bee: I'm still looking... :o Got kind of bored with the situation and have settled for my budget Sony dvd-player, an annoying piece of plastic really! (Buttons don't work without pressing really hard, no programming etc.)

At the moment Primare is the most likely choice. They seem to be quite popular here too. But I'm still not rushing to the shop...

[K-Bee]

Oh i remember Primare very well. A very high high end priced amplifyer set were available in the late 80s over here.
Just checked their site at http://www.primare.nu/ - looking good (and expensive too I guess )

[Bernie]

The Primare DVD30 looks beautiful and has a nice feature set. Too bad it's $4,000. :cry: