Can THIS Be Called Funk?

[visuals]

Just interested in knowing what the forum thinks of groups that aren't exactly funk groups but come across being funky more than anything else. Honorable mentions are Herbie Hancock's "Headhunters", Jimmy McGriff's "Electric Funk" & Miles Davis's "On The Corner" as these albums are classified as jazz but are indeed funky pieces. Steely Dan's "Aja" & "The Royal Scam" albums have been considered to contain some smooth funk though are of course classified as soft rock/rock. Can anyone relate?

[K-Bee]

I guess it all comes down to how you actually classify and define the term "Funk". Normally I wouldn't call the early 70s Miles Davis outings funk. the music is just too loose and fragmented for being able to fit into the category in my book.

I'd say the essence of funk is the way the rhythm section works. Making a heavy rhytmical foundation for the additional layers (be it soloing, vocals or whatever) in a random funk track is what really defines funk for me.
The emphasis on drums and bass lines is a very important issue here. if the rhythm foundation is in order, it's possible to add all kinds of things on top (even avant-garde/freeform like solos) and still keep it funky.
Many jazz musisians as well as 70s rock/pop groups like Steeley Dan and the Doobie brothers succeeded in doing that in the 70s, thus creating music styles such as jazz/funk and fusion in the process.

[Nano]

Yeah Visuals, that's me again :D Your topics keep me interested.
I'm a Steely Dan and certainly they knew how to make good light funk numbers like "Hey nineteen" or "Do it again". Maybe they're not very ortodox in doing this, but they keep the feeling all the way (as always mixed with bits of jazz, rock and true bubble pop). This school made it well into the Eighties, with the so-called "blue-eyed soul" coming from England (Simply Red, Curiosity Killed the Cat, Blow Monkeys, Style Council, etc. etc.) Many of these bands made funk numbers as well.
I always mention Sade's "Hang on to your love" as a great example of white funk cooked by a non-ghetto band. You listen to the bass, the way all instruments march together, and the emphasis on the one beat, and suddenly it all makes sense: it's true funk, even if Sade and Stuart Matthewman (the band leader) are not really funk musicians.
For me some basic foundations of funk are:
-the rhythm on the one
-all musicians marching together
-bass and guitar doing reverse roles (compared to rock)
-no solos
-no chorus (specially on funk á la James Brown)
-the center of the song is not the melody but the groove, which repeats itself ad infinitum

Many funk numbers does not fill all these specifications, but surely they meet several of them.

[efunk_adelic]

Steely Dan's----- 8) Black Cow 8)


I thought was pretty funky what do you think

[K-Bee]

Yeah Visuals, that's me again :D Your topics keep me interested.
I'm a Steely Dan and certainly they knew how to make good light funk numbers like "Hey nineteen" or "Do it again". Maybe they're not very ortodox in doing this, but they keep the feeling all the way (as always mixed with bits of jazz, rock and true bubble pop). This school made it well into the Eighties, with the so-called "blue-eyed soul" coming from England (Simply Red, Curiosity Killed the Cat, Blow Monkeys, Style Council, etc. etc.) Many of these bands made funk numbers as well.
I always mention Sade's "Hang on to your love" as a great example of white funk cooked by a non-ghetto band. You listen to the bass, the way all instruments march together, and the emphasis on the one beat, and suddenly it all makes sense: it's true funk, even if Sade and Stuart Matthewman (the band leader) are not really funk musicians.
For me some basic foundations of funk are:
-the rhythm on the one
-all musicians marching together
-bass and guitar doing reverse roles (compared to rock)
-no solos
-no chorus (specially on funk á la James Brown)
-the center of the song is not the melody but the groove, which repeats itself ad infinitum

Many funk numbers does not fill all these specifications, but surely they meet several of them.

Nano,
If you're a Sade fan you may be interested in knowing that her backing band (Stuart Matthewman, Andrew Hale & Paul Denman) also released a an album without Sade under the name of Sweetback in 1995 on Epic. Pretty good stuff - check it out if you don't know it already.

[Forrrce]

Also of note, perhaps, to any Sade fans who missed it - the b-side of 1988's 'Stronger Than Pride' single had a moody (and uncredited) instrumental interpretation of Caldera's 'Sky Islands', entitled 'Super Bien Total'. Great, rolling bassline (like the Caldera) and a meandering, pensive feel.

It may have been issued since on some sort of 'expanded edition' or retrospective - but if not, it's well worth seeking out for a listen.

[Nano]

Thanks for your reccomendations, guys. Matthewman was also behind Maxwell's records.

[visuals]

Thanks for the replies brothers. First of all, I agree whole-heartedly with K-Bee & Nano. The rhythm section is the basic foundation for funk as in order for all things to be funky, It's gotta make you move. Once that is established, Everything else can be topped off along the way. For me, Funk is deep bass,rhythm guitar and good drum playing with nasty breaks/break downs and a lot of cymbals and hi-hat riding.
Add other ingredients as see fit.

efunk_adelic - Steely's Black Cow was indeed a tight piece...Hell, That whole album was on point from the first track on thru to Josie IMHO. The Royal Scam was just as good with cuts like The Fez & Green Earrings.

Nano - I am only familiar with one of the groups that you mentioned and that is Simply Red. A co-worker turned me on to a mid to late 80's cd by them a while back but I really didn't get too deep into them at the time. I need to re-evaluate that disc and some others by them that he has. Being as you and efunk_adelic are Steely Dan fans, I remember a group that had a few minor hits out around the same time that Steely's "Aja" was released in 76/77 by the name of "Starbuck". The one tune I can remember was called "Moonlight Feels Right" from the album of the same name. Again, soft rock category but it had that Steely Dan kinda flow going on with the lead singer's sleepy-sounding vocals and keyboard/vibe heavy rhythym. This tune flows slow like Deacon Blues but still manages to bob heads. I also am a big fan of Sade with my favorite album being "Diamond Life". Hang On To Your Love was and still is one of her best and I agree with you 100% about that style of music....MELLOW but funky in it's own special kind of way. I also became hipped to Sade's essence "Sweetback" and although I never knew these guys were behind the sounds of Maxwell, I always said that the sound is alike....even though from different decades which is amazing to me. I'm gonna have to delve deeper into Matthewman's works. When is Sweetback gonna release another joint? It's definately time for one. :P