Acetate [Level 1]
Donnie Van "Hold Back The Night "
This I don't think is the same song. The Trammps wrote "Hold Back The Night " in 1975 and it was released on Buddah records not Gamble. The only Donnie Van I ever heard of was Ronnie Van Zant's brother who was in the group Lynyrd Skynyrd. He had his own group 38 Special, but unless he had a Southern Rock Mutation take place I don't think its the same guy.
"Win, Place or Show" was not from 1970........its a 45 from 1972
I think we are all in agreement that Gamble and Huff and the Philly sound had alot to do with Disco, and they probably borrowed from earlier styles to create Disco as we recognize it. Its possible they were influenced by a Euro sound as well and melded it into American soul music to come up with their own brand of music.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
The vocal version of that track wasn't released until '75 when Moulton put together the Legendary Zing LP, but the instrumental, which is 'Scrubboard' was put on the flip side of one of the 1972 singles. My guess is that they did record vocals for it, but for whatever reason, they or Buddah didn't feel it should be released as a single back in '72 or '73.Originally Written by SUPERGONZO
Disco Funk
Acetate [Level 1]
"The vocal version of that track wasn't released until '75 when Moulton put together the Legendary Zing LP, but the instrumental, which is 'Scrubboard' was put on the flip side of one of the 1972 singles."
Ahh Hah! Very Cool Disco Funk.. I still don't know who Donnie Van is?? I don't think he was ever a member of the Trammps??
Platinum Record [Level 8]
When I did a little digging, I found that his name is actually spelled Donnie Vann. His version of Hold Back The Night is a completely different song, done at a slow ballad tempo. Still another great example of the Philly soul sound circa the late 60s. I don't recall ever seeing his name amongst the Trammps on any of the album credits. He had other recordings later on, on labels like Dakar.
Disco Funk
Platinum Record [Level 8]
In all this talk about the philly sound being the blueprint for the disco music that was to come later, I forgot to mention another progenitor of the disco dance sound c. 1972: The Fatback Band. In that year they released the single 'Street Dance' b/w 'Going To See My Baby'. Both tracks were proto-disco anthems! 'Street Dance' had the four on the floor beat going, but sadly no snare on the upbeat, while 'Going To See My Baby' had that bouncing/off-beat hi hat going throughout. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Earl Young took notice of the latter and decided to use that sound throughout a whole song rather than just the intros (e.g. Zing, and That's Where I'm Coming From), hence Waitin For The Rain.
Disco Funk
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Here's another candidate for the earliest disco tune, again from the city of brotherly love. It's from the Soul Devalents, a group I think Bunny Sigler was a member of. I had this on 45 but for some reason it didn't click for me as an early disco tune until I heard it again recently. The track is Grasshopper:
Grasshopper
It was released on the North Bay label,which unfortunately, never printed dates. The guess is that it came out in 72. North Bay was discontinued around 72 or so.
It sounds like there might even be a little 4 on the floor on the drums too. This probably was before Sigler found Instant Funk as his backing band, so I'm guessing it's Earl Young on drums.
Here's the North Bay discography. You can see where it was released, which was before the Executive Suite and Little Dooley tracks which I think were credited also as being from 1972.
300 - MELLO MOODS - Tell Love Hello b/w If You See Him
301 - TALK OF THE TOWN - Little Bit Of Your Lovin' b/w Tossin' My Pride Aside
302 – FAMILY - Family Affair b/w Nation Time
304 – FAMILY - Robot (Do The) (Pt. 1) b/w Robot (Do The) (Pt. 2)
305 - TALK OF THE TOWN - Don't Be So Mean b/w Accept Me For What I Am
306 - SOUL DEVALENTS - Grasshopper
307 – VIBRATIONS - When Will My Turn Come b/w Sneakin'
308 - LITTLE DOOLEY - Memories b/w It's Got To Be Now Or Never
309 - EXECUTIVE SUITE - I'm A Winner Now b/w You Got The Kind Of Love
310 - LOUISE WILLIAMS - Don't The Children
311 - LOVE BROTHERS - Giddy Up b/w Bop De Doo Waw
Disco Funk
Acetate [Level 1]
I am starting to realize why your screen name is "Disco Funk". Because the vocal on that song has "Funk" written all over it. The background music is a cross between funk with some disco elements in it.
Since funk was popular around this time period 1972, I am going to say that was more of a traditional funk record with the begininngs of the disco sound starting to emerge. But I don't think that record is sound enlightening enough to be called the "First Disco Record". It sounds rather typical of the time period, yet has some progressive elements to it. Nice discovery though...cool
However like I said before, we could be chasing the Holy Grail on this, as we hear more of these records it become obvious the "Disco" sound evolved and was not instantly made one day, and this record is further proof of that.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
I totally agree, that there isn't really one song that is the first true true disco song, but it was a series of developments. For me, I think that more than 70% of that came from the Philly area.
Here's another track, which I think was recorded in the philly area, which is where the artist, who is Brenda & The Tabulations, was based. They did a number of truly philly dance numbers in '73, but this track from 72, while not specifically philly sounding, is a dance number that has a disco beat:
Little Bit Of Love
It was a Van McCoy composition, if I'm not mistaken. He would later record that tune with Faith Hope & Charity.
Disco Funk
Acetate [Level 1]
BTW , someone earlier brought up "Soul Makossa" by Manu Dibango as the first disco record. I responded by saying I was in Africa at the time, and heard it before it came to the states.
Well just to add a little more madness to the mix. There was a group called Afrique....who here in the US, came out with a version of Soul Makossa before Manu Dibango's original version was released here!! In fact it preceded Manu's original "Soul Makossa" by about 2 months in spring of 1973! However it stalled at number 47 on the Billboard charts and at that time the Manu Dibango original "Soul Makossa" was at number 49! And rapidly catching up. After this Afrique's version headed off the charts and Manu Dibango got his just deserts as his original version took off up to the top of the charts.
So in essence if you believe "Soul Makossa" was the first disco song (which I don't), it would be the cover version by Afrique that was released first here in the US, and NOT Manu Dibango's original hit.
================================================== =
I am going back to the Billboard charts in 1973-----1971 and looking for possible disco candidates. Other than Soul Makossa. The first real Huge True Disco hit has to be "Love's Theme" in late 1973. (Yeah Barry) There are a few relatively big hits before that such as the previously mentioned First Choice's "Armed and Extremely Dangerous" & "Smarty Pants"....but not many, some of the low chart entries, I cannot remember what they sound like, so I have to see if I have copies of them around to see if they fit the Disco bill.
No Longer Charting
The UK label of Afriques version is here.
http://www.discomusic.com/records-more/11111_0_2_0_C/
The Pye label with silver type doesn't scan well unfortunately.
Acetate [Level 1]
If not Shaft then definetely the 7:30 treat "Girl you need a change of mind" by Eddie Kendricks on 1973...
Acetate [Level 1]
I Like To Say Tina Charles Love To Llove Or Dance Littel Lady
Indie Release [Level 4]
I know this is a topic that has been hashed out many times before and the results remain pretty much the same. At the same time a "first" can be as objective as "early" depending what the listener hears within a song.
For me I believe the overlooked "I'll Be Around" by the Spinners is a candidate and represents the Philly sound as well as having the disco riff beats. It also charted very early on the R&B charts - 10/28/1972.
Eric Huffstutler
Chart Hit [Level 6]
I, for one, certainly agree with Huffstutler that 1972's "I'll be Around" has some early-disco instrumentation, as does the late fall 1972 hit by the Temptations, "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" (especially that lengthy intro), but for me, the earliest recording that had disco instrumentation would be the oft-mentioned "Theme From Shaft", from fall '71. However, for me, and I guess a more controversial choice, the first full-on disco hit from start to finish (featuring slow intro that later ignites, soaring strings, hi-hat drumming, and scorching vocals) ..... was fall of '73's "The Love I Lost" by Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes (Teddy Pendergrass on lead vocals). That tune was a top 10 pop hit and R&B hit, and peaked on the charts before the gorgeous instrumental "Love's Theme" (also a full-fledged disco smash) finally hit # 1 in early 1974. Even to this day, my body & feet instinctively start moving when I hear The Love I Lost, and to think that Billboard FINALLY began tracking disco tunes a full 12 months later . . . all I can say it's about time, and we have to applaud those early disco tunes that paved the way:icon_exclaim::icon_exclaim::icon_exclaim:
Indie Release [Level 4]
I guess any way you slice it, the Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff Philly sounds will be the cornerstone of "early" and possibly "first" true full length discofied songs (though Bell and Hurtt did "I'll Be Around" - they had the same sound). True, there are songs that have certain tints of disco within them and you can say that is true with songs going as far back as the 1930s. Heck, I even heard a Polynesian tribal dance in an old 1930s movie have a disco beat; my back was turned away from the TV screen at the time and I had to do a double take of what I was hearing!
I have a couple of oddities to add if you want to be analytical about what has an early disco sound... don't think anyone has listed these yet so please comment
"Instant Karma" - John Ono Lennon 1970 (yes, he used Yoko's last name as part of his own then)
"Spirit In The Sky" - Norman Greenbaum 1969
"You're The One" - Little Sister 1970 (Sly Stone's sister who also played in his band) - seen on some early disco lists.
"Stoned Love / Up The Ladder To The Roof" - The Supremes 1970 (two songs from the new Supremes)
Do you see a 1970 year theme going on here?
Last edited by Huffstutler; June 25th, 2008 at 08:01 AM.
Indie Release [Level 4]
While surfing about I ran across an interesting (and I am sure not unfamiliar) site at disco-disco.com under the Proto-Disco and First Disco Song page. The author states they asked 1,200 DJs from the Disco era what they recall as the first disco song. Not sure how this (if) accomplished trying to track down let alone poll 1,200 middle-aged disco DJs. Then the results of the top 25 songs was a bit askewed if you ask me.
#1 wasn't a shock as 90% state "Zing..." by the Trammps but #2 on the list was odd... they say "Cisco Kid" and other similar War songs was the first disco song. Hmmm... 80% (960) says this over "Love Train" (which was #7) or even "Shaft" at # 8? And even more of a shock was "In The Summertime" by Mungo Jerry. Disco? - not in my book but more pseudo reggae-soft rock-pop. This clocked in at #9. So... was all of the DJ's "DISCO" oriented or a bunch of mainstream Top 40 radio DJs?
Just passing that along in case someone missed this site!
Eric Huffstutler
Richmond, VA
Chart Hit [Level 6]
just re-visited that particular webpage, Huffstutler, and besides joining you in scratching my head at "In The Summertime":icon_eek: . . . . am equally confused at the inclusion of "Let's Get It On" (1973), one of the sexiest songs ever placed on top 40 radio, BUT was it disco ??? I never thought so, though I may be in the minority on that one !!!
Indie Release [Level 4]
Hey drlove... 15 minutes from the French Quarter huh? I lived 5 years in New Orleans during the last phase of the Disco era (late 70s early 80s) including in the French Quarter itself and later in Metarie.
The Ike and Tina Turner song has been on several lists and it is a bit of a stretch - not exactly disco but dancable and still one of my favorite pre solo offerings by them.
[EDIT]... OOPS! Brain Fart (and old fart)! You were talking about Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On" and I was thinking "Baby, Get It On" (1975) by Ike and Tina. Yes, the Marvin Gaye song is definately not disco - more Motown soul exclusive
Eric
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Eric, the N.O. club scene's changed quite a bit since you were there in the early '80s, though the Bourbon Pub/Parade is still packing 'em in on weekend nights. I particularly love Sundays when they play the retro videos such as our disco faves . . .:icon_cool:
Indie Release [Level 4]
drlove... I bet it has! I was there in a transitional period where Disco was starting to go back underground and disco-rock music infiltrating the scene while New Wave was a new venture for the younger folks. AIDS had become known and the climate around town changing.
At the time Jerry Menefee owned the Parade in N.O. and Houston (does he still?) and had just done some heavy renovations including going to NYC and buying a new lighting and sound system for the main 2nd level dance floor. He spent over $1-million on that alone I understood. That was one of my main hangouts but also frequented Lafitte's (Tom Wood owned it), Jewel's Tavern on Decatur St., TT's / Rampart's, Tiger's Lounge (think Alton "Tiger" Tubbs had that), and Red River Bottom. Of course the Parade was "the" place to go gay or straight to dance. I was friends with several of the owners of various clubs and in them 3-4 nights a week on average.
Eric
Indie Release [Level 4]
Has anyone checked out Bill Wither's 1971 song "Harlem" which was the 'B' side of "Ain't No Sunshine". "Harlem" has some psudo-disco instrumentation. Comments?
Eric
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Nice ear you have, Eric !!! I hadn't heard it before, but found it online here:
YouTube - BILL WITHERS - HARLEM ))mono((
. . . and the addition of strings at the beginning, with this stomping groove, is indeed (to me) an example of early disco elements. That stomping/shuffle-type groove + strings was used similarly in that lengthy intro to 1972's "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" (Temptations). Accordingly, I think those "Harlem" and "Papa" are kindred cousins in that respect.:icon_cool:
Thanks for turning me on to a fine song by Mr. Withers (his "Lean On Me" is one of my fave non-disco tunes of the entire '70s).
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Thanks for that link. I don't recall hearing that Withers track before. I'm not sure if its the same one that Creative Source covered a few years later.Nice ear you have, Eric !!! I hadn't heard it before, but found it online here:
YouTube - BILL WITHERS - HARLEM ))mono((
. . . and the addition of strings at the beginning, with this stomping groove, is indeed (to me) an example of early disco elements. That stomping/shuffle-type groove + strings was used similarly in that lengthy intro to 1972's "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" (Temptations). Accordingly, I think those "Harlem" and "Papa" are kindred cousins in that respect.:icon_cool:
Thanks for turning me on to a fine song by Mr. Withers (his "Lean On Me" is one of my fave non-disco tunes of the entire '70s).
It's a tough call on that one, as to whether it's pre-disco or a throw-back to 60's Philly and Motown, where they had uptempo grooves pounding on the snare on every beat. Actually, the beat reminds me more of Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman towards the middle when the instruments cut out. Perhaps that's one of the missing links on the path to disco? People in the early 70s trying to copy Motowns earlier thumping beat.
The Equals 'Baby Come Back' from 1968 could be considered proto-disco, minus the strings. And I think 'Soul Finger' by The Barkays could also be put into that category.
I guess any one of these songs could be mixed into a set of early dance club numbers, but sadly, they would standout like a sore thumb if mixed into tracks like Good Times by Chic, Dancer by Gino Soccio, and so on.
Disco Funk
Indie Release [Level 4]
Disco Funk
True on many points. But also keep in mind about your analogy. "Harlem" from 1971 was pre Philly (Philly started in 1972) and wasn't out of Motown though has some familiar beats. So the "missing link" comment may be more spot on than you know. In any event, it stands on its own while at the same time shares a place in the "pre disco / disco sounds club".
I have more early oddities like this in my collection... just have to dig them up and post for comments.
Still a fun carefree tune even if dancers would loose interest after a while. Good thing it is only 3 minutes + and was never a 12" disc.
Your example of "Baby Come Back" falls on the other side of the fence and leans more towards Beach Music to my ears.
Personally, I am more of an old school High Energy (not the post 1985 NRG stuff) of the late 70s type person at heart.
Eric
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Thanks for the feedback. The philly I was referring actually stretches back into the 60s. The Delfonics had a number of uptempo dance numbers, and there were various projects like Electric Indian ('69) that were done in Philadelphia in Sigma and the various other philly studios using the MFSB guys. I think it was in 1971 that they put out Family Affair and Nation Time under the moniker 'The Family'. There was also a track called 'Do The Robot' by The Family that was dance oriented from '71 featuring the MFSB cats. And I think there were some uptempo numbers from the Continental IV on Jay Walking that came out around that time, produced by Bobby Martin. I'm a philly music fanatic, so I've been studying the progression of the sound of the groove as it evolved from that late 60s period, where they were doing Motown-esque uptempo beats, to what would lead things into a new direction. The paradigm shift in dance music, as far as I see it, came with the release of Al Green's Lets Stay Together in '71. What happened was that in Spring 72, when the Philly guys were laying down I'll Be Around, drummer Earl Young (who was a lead singer in the Trammps as well), decided to emulate the Al Green beat by accentuating the snare with a tom drum. I think by the end of that year they were doing 4 on the floor beats (kick drum on every beat, snare only on 2nd and 4th, as opposed to Bohannon on tracks like Stop & Go and Pimp Walk, who hit the snare on every beat, a la Motown). Of course, hind sight is 20/20. Many DJs were playing all kinds of tunes from various genres, and with various sounds, because disco really hadn't been pigeon-holed exactly yet. But the Philly sound certainly was the direction the music headed, because many early 70s producers were trying to emulate the philly sound, from what I've read. Other influences like latin and afro beats eventually were incorporated into the disco sound, but it was the jazzy, soul funk that came out of Philly that was the blueprint for disco. For me, anyway. :) Disco Funk
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