Songs that loop around on a 3 bar (or other weird) cycle

**Leatherman** · October 13th, 2003, 11:12 PM

Often you don't notice the bar thing but it can make a track more exiting and musically less predictable

eg

Ashford and Simpson (and others) "Bourgie Bourgie"
Taana Gardner "Wehen you touch Me"
silver Platinum "I got a thing"

Anyone for anymore?

**QUINNY** · October 14th, 2003, 03:14 AM

Leatherman: Not sure where you're coming from on this. I don't think 3 bar cycles exist. Maybe 20 bars or 28 just to be awkward, but 12 or 18? Not in Disco surely? Die hard Blues fans won't disagree, but Blues is based on 3 X 4 bar cycles (12 bar blues) isn't it? A jazz friend of mine wrote an 11 bar blues riff once, and managed to play it, but it was almost impossible to do so, without loads of rehearsal from all the band members. (nearly) All musos count in 4s.

It's when a record went from 16 to 20 bars that really confused the hell out of me.
A great example of this is Michael Zager - Let's All Chant. on the clarinet/trumpet solo.

**Forrrce** · October 14th, 2003, 03:49 AM

I know exactly what he means, Quinny - have a listen to A&S's 'Bourgie, Bourgie'. Most music we listen to is arranged 4-square (four bars of this, that, yada-yada) but he's on about certain songs where the changes deliberately come a bar early.

Records like 'When You Touch Me' have long and/or drum intros, so there's plenty to swing around on when mixing them in. Maybe it was something or nothing, like the (supposed) 3/4 thing.

NickNack? Philip Esparza..?

**Leatherman** · October 14th, 2003, 05:46 AM

Q - As Forrrce said tracks like When You Touch Me loop around on 12 bar cycle - 4 sets of 3 bars. As apposed to the normal 16 bar cycle. It isn't really noticable unless you count the bars - or try and mix them.

I Gotta Thing goes round on a 6 beat cycle - a bar and a half turn around.

**kaliffen** · October 16th, 2003, 02:18 PM

Just try to mix Change "Searching" with a normal 4/4 track
and have feel of that odd 3/4 feeling or whatever it runs in.

Kaliffen

**miles mayhem** · October 21st, 2003, 07:48 PM

Dr Love is structured like that (repeats of 3 4/4 bars)

**QUINNY** · October 22nd, 2003, 09:56 AM

Taana gardner's When You Touch Me is just plain f****d up as far as I can tell (haven't got the record, have listened to it via a download from a French radio show).

1 section is 14 and a half bars, another 10 and a half. Could this have been the result of too many drugs and too little sleep? What an odd, totally disjointed effort.

**Leatherman** · October 22nd, 2003, 02:16 PM

Originally Written by QUINNY

Taana gardner's When You Touch Me is just plain f****d up as far as I can tell (haven't got the record, have listened to it via a download from a French radio show).

1 section is 14 and a half bars, another 10 and a half. Could this have been the result of too many drugs and too little sleep? What an odd, totally disjointed effort.

Not feeling it Q?

If you listen to the main bassline groove you will hear it is a 3 bar loop - no matter what happening on top.

I rather like it. It doesn't sound too strange to me. It was produced by Kenton Nx - who also did Taana's "Heartbeat" and Gwen McCrae's "Funky Sensation".

"Doctor Love" another good example of the this 3 bar thing.

**Forrrce** · October 23rd, 2003, 03:05 AM

Just thinkin'...both Convertion's 'Sweet Thing' and Elton's 'Are You Ready For Love' have square verses but odd cycles for the rest of the songs.

**Leatherman** · October 23rd, 2003, 06:29 AM

Yes, "Are You Ready For Love" is normal 8 bar 4/4 in verse and bridge but then goes to three and a half bars in the chorus - the final "Are you" being the half bar turnaround

**QUINNY** · October 23rd, 2003, 08:52 AM

WRONG!!!!

Leatherman, you're just not counting right. the half bar turnaround or the "are you" half bars are part of the 4 bar sequence (and ultimate 16 bar sequence). I admit it might proove difficult to mix successfully because it sounds as if the "are you" parts are somewhat tagged on, but this doesn't make it a 3 and a half bar sequence. It is quite plainly and quite categorically a 4 bar sequence.

BTW: I've listened to the Taana Gardner track a few more times and I'd still say it's just plain f****d up. Poor editing possibly or a song that just didn't fit nicely into any musical convention.

**Leatherman** · October 23rd, 2003, 04:27 PM

Originally Written by QUINNY

WRONG!!!!

Leatherman, you're just not counting right. the half bar turnaround or the "are you" half bars are part of the 4 bar sequence (and ultimate 16 bar sequence). I admit it might proove difficult to mix successfully because it sounds as if the "are you" parts are somewhat tagged on, but this doesn't make it a 3 and a half bar sequence. It is quite plainly and quite categorically a 4 bar sequence.

BTW: I've listened to the Taana Gardner track a few more times and I'd still say it's just plain f****d up. Poor editing possibly or a song that just didn't fit nicely into any musical convention.

Quinny - no, I'm afraid you are totally wrong. Firstly, you seem to have difficulty grasping the fact that musicians might occasionally move away fro the standard 4/4 time signiture. Secondly, you can't seem to count.

If you actually check the number of beats in a chorus of Elton it has 3 lots of 4 beat bars then one bar of 2 beats (totalling 14 beats - as opposed to 16 - each chorus is made up of 4 times this). I am 100% sure I am right here - it isn't a matter of opinion, it is fact mate. As for Taana being bad editing, that is just a silly thing to say. Is Dr Love also poor editing? Both these songs were written around riffs that run in 3 bar cycles. It isn't that complicated.

I don't think James Hamilton would be very impressed with your beat counting mate!

**QUINNY** · October 23rd, 2003, 05:52 PM

Leatherman: I don't want to get into some goddamn fight over this, but what you're saying is totally different from saying it's a 3 bar loop.

:oops: :oops: Ah ha! I've just listened to the track and Leatherman is correct....my apologies. :oops: :oops:
The main body is 16 bar sequence, the chorus 14 bars.
Bad songwriting or inspired? The chorus is a 16 bar structure gone wrong or what? It would be interesting to ask Elton John why it ended up that way.

Oh well, it shouldn't be difficult to mix. You just have to remember such things.

I still think Taana Gardner is just F****d up, cos there are odd half bars, odd number of bars and some really weird **** going down. Only a non muso would have made it like that, surely? It could be down to bad edits, I'm not joking.

**QUINNY** · October 24th, 2003, 03:59 AM

BTW: Is that a 10 bar bridge too in AYRFL (thus making bridge and chorus a 24 bar sequence)? I don't have the record (as you can tell) and just catch occasional snippets on the radio.

**Leatherman** · October 24th, 2003, 06:37 AM

I have to disagree about using strange time signitures being a non muso thing to do.

Something like Elton would be less interesting (and ultimately less catchy) if is it was staightened out. The fact you have to actually count the bars before you notice it isn't in 4/4 is a testiment to how natural it sounds. A heavily used chord progression can be made to sound fresh by having it cycling in an unusual way. The opening of Ashford and Simpsons "Bourgie Bougie" is a classic example of this. I'm sure this calibre of producer/songwriter wouldn't do something that was slapdash - they are just coming from a more musicaly minded angle and often want to do unusual stuff, but (hopefully) in a way that still appeals to the masses.

Many 70's soul records, while still generally in 4/4, have extra bars/half bars thrown in all over the place. It is only since the drum machine, and particularly house music, that structures have become far more straightened out.