CD vs. 12" singles...

[Rab]

I remember back in the 1980's when CD's were being promoted there was much attention that CD quality was suppose to be superior to the quality of vinyl. Of course, many of us skeptics clearly had an idea that the media was doing all it could to not only promote, but justify the added expense of the public purchasing CD's. Now, since CD's have almost run vinyl out to same frontier as 8-track tapes, many DJ's and avid music listeners seem to agree that "virgin" vinyl probably had better frequency high's and lows, as far as sound quality. Does anyone out there, that considers themselves to have a "sensitive ear" believe CD quality is better...maybe equal?



Also, I was out at a club back on New Year's Eve and heard a DJ, apparently mixing CD's? Some of these were classics from the late 1970's. I have searched under this website, as well as CDNOW and ALLMUSIC.COM to see if there was any selection of "CD single's"? This DJ I heard, mixed "Don't You Want My Love"/Debbie Jacobs with another cut quite well, but have not seen Debbie Jacob's original classic come out on CD? Also, I would like to hear from people who mix CD's. Is it the same as mixing vinyl? How do you back-que?? Also, can you mix from vinyl back to CD, and then back to vinyl?

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2002-04-04 13:43, Rab wrote:

I remember back in the 1980's when CD's were being promoted there was much attention that CD quality was suppose to be superior to the quality of vinyl.

For most people it is. On consumer-grade equipment, CD blows vinyl away. It's not until you get a decent analog system and decent pressings, which were rather scarce back then.

Now, since CD's have almost run vinyl out to same frontier as 8-track tapes,

That's a bit of an exaggeration... vinyl is still manufactured, as is the equipment to play it on. In fact, demand is going up, although it is far from being a mainstream product. 10 years ago, it looked like vinyl would be completely extinct by this time, yet it lives on. Compare this to the 8-track tape, which went from being a mainstream format in 1979 to completely out of existence by 1983.

many DJ's and avid music listeners seem to agree that "virgin" vinyl probably had better frequency high's and lows, as far as sound quality. Does anyone out there, that considers themselves to have a "sensitive ear" believe CD quality is better...maybe equal?

A well-mastered LP, pressed on good vinyl, and played back on a good system, that is decently set up and maintained, will outperform a CD.



However, most people don't have good systems for vinyl playback, and the average person doesn't want to be bothered with setting overhang, VTA, VTF, anti-skating, testing out different cartridges, etc. And presently it's getting harder to find decent turntables that don't cost a fortune. Basically, there are only three types of turntables you can get now: (1) crappy low-end consumer units that totally suck ass, (2) DJ-oriented decks that are durable and reliable, but sonically lacking, or (3) high-end audiophile gear that sounds fantastic, but is very expensive. Dual recently went out of business, and they were practically the last company making half-decent turntables that were affordable.



And although I consider the analog audiophile arguement to be solid, one issue that I take great exception to is the notion that the bass is "better" on vinyl. This is simply not true. For reasons too long to go into here, most vinyl is mastered with everything below 20Hz filtered out. This is simply not necessary with CD or other digital formats. Some people boast of how the bass sounds "fatter" on vinyl -- and yes it does, not because it's more accurate, but because there's 40dB more of noise and rumble in the signal compared to the high frequencies! This adds more motion and richness to the sound, but that's not the way the master tape plays. Records aren't recorded flat; the lower frequencies are boosted by your pre-amp, and the higher ones reduced.

[BitchBag]

I swear a clean non-repressed 12" sounds better than most CD's.

[kaliffen]

Playing Cds is as easy as playing with vinyl these days.
There are two cd player that are really good (and probably more but i havent tried them)

The technics z1200 and the Pioneer DJ 1000

[Rab]

[quote]

Playing Cds is as easy as playing with vinyl these days.
There are two cd player that are really good (and probably more but i havent tried them)

The technics z1200 and the Pioneer DJ 1000

Thank you for the image kaliffen! Now, for a dumb question....does this turn table utilize CD's as well as Vinyl 12" singles?

[stevieboy32808]

if you are talking about vinyl from the 80's and every decade before it then hands down vinyl has a superior sound reproduction than cd. But if you are talking about the vinyl that's being pressed in the 90's up to today then you'd better stop fooling yourself. The reason I say this is because back in the 80's and the decades before it a song would be recorded in a studio on reel to reel or some form of ANALOG method where the tape would be mastered and then sent to the pressing plant for the master acetate to be made for mass vinyl pressings. In the late 80's-early 90's DAT tapes became the standard medium in which studios would record their final master track. DAT stands for DIGITAL audio tape. The master acetate would be pressed from a DAT tape. Therefore the sound reproduced on vinyl is the same sound you hear on CD's.

[BrunoRepublic]

Therefore the sound reproduced on vinyl is the same sound you hear on CD's.

Not necessarily. A DAT is (usually) 48KHz sampling rate, whereas CD is 44.1. Not much of a difference, but there are those who have consistently demonstrated that they can hear the difference on a good system.

Furthermore, although analog recording is basically dead, most studios now mix and master at 96KHz with 24-bit depth. Thus, a modern LP could conceivably out-perform a CD in terms of frequency range. Furthermore, there is sometimes (and quite ironically) less limiting and compression on an LP, as most contemporary CDs are dynamically crushed to make them sound as loud as possible.

Having said that, my opinion on LPs remains the same: they *can* sound better than CDs, but they usually don't.

[spacebass]

I think Cds definitely could be far superior to 12" but the answer lies not in esoteria but how they twiddle the knobs when the set up the CD master, as I believe CDs are limited in their dynamic range so they do not blow away run of the mill home stereos, 'compression' as Graham mentions is the key, I'm sure he could develope this concept further.

If it was viable I am sure the record companies could make 12" Cds that would rock!

[eddie]

Personally I always like Cds because they are accessable and I don't have to worry about a warp or getting scratched. My preferrence is a hybrid. I prefer a Cd dubbed from virgin vinyl by the manufacturer.

To Graham Start: I did notice that the sound quality on a tape recorded from the radio sounded better than the company made tape. Could it be that the music is amplified once through the radio stations amp, then my amp during recording, and again during playback. I did notice that 'fatter' sound and the fade time was heavily distorted and the track sounded like it ended almost immediately when actually there was a 20 second fade out. Is all the pre-amping doing that? I highly doubt if technically it was a superior recording but it just sounded better.

[BrunoRepublic]

Radio stations heavily compress their signal, which would be one reason for the difference. The other is that most mass-produced cassettes are made with cheap tape, and done at high speed instead of real-time... back in the 70s, the technology for decent high speed duplication just didn't exist, so they sounded very muffled as a result.

[andyy]

To me who has collected vinyl since a 9 year old boy my opinion is yes the 12inch vinyl i prefer over the cd. i guess many reasons of personal preferance will develop further in this thread we all have our own taste cd or vinyl 12 inch format.
Some of you may be shocked when i say i dont have any cds i dont poccess a cd player and i dont ever want to buy or own one, i prefer the warm round sound which vinyl produces the squeeky clean high pitch sound although clear dont interest me and i dont like the cheap cd package you have to buy as in comparison to this large lump of vinyl with label sleeve artwork and much more .
To cd lovers i apologise but i must be a vinyl pureist i love my 12 inch singles the grooves are cut deep and you get value for money every time you purchase a new record it is still the same size still the same format as when the first 12 inch single came out.
Sound wise over the yearstheir has been a considerable differeance in the sound quality from the early years to the present day but the warm sound only vinyl produces is still their and in comparison to cd it is a different sound, one is a lasor the other needle in the groove,:icon_confused:

[Pickles]

To me who has collected vinyl since a 9 year old boy my opinion is yes the 12inch vinyl i prefer over the cd. i guess many reasons of personal preferance will develop further in this thread we all have our own taste cd or vinyl 12 inch format.
Some of you may be shocked when i say i dont have any cds i dont poccess a cd player and i dont ever want to buy or own one, i prefer the warm round sound which vinyl produces the squeeky clean high pitch sound although clear dont interest me and i dont like the cheap cd package you have to buy as in comparison to this large lump of vinyl with label sleeve artwork and much more .
To cd lovers i apologise but i must be a vinyl pureist i love my 12 inch singles the grooves are cut deep and you get value for money every time you purchase a new record it is still the same size still the same format as when the first 12 inch single came out.
Sound wise over the yearstheir has been a considerable differeance in the sound quality from the early years to the present day but the warm sound only vinyl produces is still their and in comparison to cd it is a different sound, one is a lasor the other needle in the groove,:icon_confused:

Times two, best thing was when the cd's became the be and end all with every tom,dick and harry dumping thier records of at 2nd hand shops etc just in time for me to pick them up at bargain prices. Vinyl is,will and always be my preferred music medium. I am not goin into the vinyl vs cd debate because thats been done to death. Let me put this question to you; if the costs of producing a cd was the same as an vinyl record with the associated costs of breaking even do you think there would be as much crap music available as there is today?? Also I have never seen a cd go for some serious $$ on the bay due to its collectabilty ( ,maybe a couple but compared to vinyl>>) i do own cd's and have a cd player but nothing beats 12 black inches

[BrunoRepublic]

Also I have never seen a cd go for some serious $$ on the bay due to its collectabilty...

Umm... there are a lot of valuable collectable CDs out there.

[Pickles]

Umm... there are a lot of valuable collectable CDs out there.

Until they are bought and ripped and blogged or scratched. I just LOVE my vinyl. I have had a few cdj dj over my place try and mix with vinyl which was funnier than Benny Hill trying to become a priest. I have cd's as well but mainly re edits I have done myself or by others and trhats really the only value I personally see in them( plus maybe downloading tunes you're not sure of buying >>>)

[BrunoRepublic]

Until they are bought and ripped and blogged or scratched.

No, you are mistaken. You must be thinking of cassettes, which are generally worthless now. Even though the content can easily be copied, CDs can still be quite valuable. Off the top of my head, things like the CD single of the KLF's "Kylie Said To Jason", the Unidisc Costandinos compilation, "target" pressings (early 80s pressings of Warner CDs), the Canadian "Disque Americ" issues of The Beatles' "Help" and "Rubber Soul" which used the original mixes by mistake, audiophile CDs from DCC and Mobile Fidelity, Soft Cell's "Last Night In Sodom" album, some of the rarer Pet Shop Boys CD singles (like "So Hard" Morales mixes)... on and on and on. Just because the masses have stopped buying CDs doesn't mean that collectors have, much like with vinyl.

[andyy]

If the cd versus vinyl debate is maybe a tiresome subject then i personally feel this thread needs more comments more personal reasons of why one is better or prefered. the vinyl record is becoming old in format but still in demand and for discussion. Would be interesting to see if the cd gains much interest for discussion maybe it is not old enough but i think still even to this day the sound has nothing to do with cds taking more preferance its the size of vinyl and the storage problams and thats what a lot of non vinyl collectors non pureists dont want bulk in their homes. for me i dont care about the storage i love it and will collect till i die.
The cd i dont like the look of it. the cheapness of format and the grotty plastic case i find offensive and nasty and most of my friends are always constantly replacing their plastic cases because they dont last very long.
It is amazing how long a record cover can last and also the inner paper sleeve. if it becomes old and slightly going aged around the edges we buy new paper sleeves but the cover generally lasts provided it is not abused and the plastic covers you can buy , just preseve the beauties within.
Ah gimmie vinyl anyday.

[BrunoRepublic]

It is amazing how long a record cover can last and also the inner paper sleeve. if it becomes old and slightly going aged around the edges we buy new paper sleeves but the cover generally lasts provided it is not abused and the plastic covers you can buy , just preseve the beauties within.
Ah gimmie vinyl anyday.

Paper inner sleeves the work of Satan. They are abrasive and over time, will shed dust into the grooves as the paper naturally disintegrates. I immediately replace any paper sleeves that come my way with plastic.

[andyy]

When most records were produced yeras ago and even now paper sleeves are still included with a record package. I personally replace all my paper sleeves when they are getting old and also any secindhand record i purchase i replace with paper sleeves lined inside with the soft type plastic that way you get the look of authentiisty on the outside and protection too on the inside.
A company over here in the UK based in Burton On Trent is where i purchase mine and they are excellent quality.
I guess to all the vinyl lovers in the USA you will have somwhere who sells the type i use , thanks for bringing this Bruno to our attention.

[andyy]

I no this thread originally was started in 2002 and in 2011 things are changing for the better regarding the older format of Vinyl, Hooray yes those slimmer smaller CD formats were definately pushing higher sales for nearly two decades but from what i am reading and seen for myself Vinyl is definately back and increasing in sales no where near the sales of downloads , but i believe it to be great news for vinyl lovers and those like me who love the 12 inch vinyl format .Although im not really happy with the Nu disco sound which is chopping up and repeating older finer disco works it still will bring in a new generation and even young people are buying records for the first time.
I recently purchased from a shop in the UK twenty 1970s disco 12 inch singles i asked the shop store owner how are vinyl sales he said up by 70% and CD sales were a mere 30% and down in 2010. Even online record stores are selling more vinyl now due to reissues and NU Disco 12 inch records and the old EMI plant in the UK have last year just opened up another section plant to produce more vinyl. Although i cannot speak for American sales of Vinyl iam sure those sales of vinyl 12 inch singles must be increasing more now in america than they were some twenty years ago.

[jamiej-80sdisco]

I have spent the last two years converting all my 12" to AIIF format. I have found that with very clean records and a good cartridge and stylus, you will achieve a far more rewarding and clearer sound from the original vinyl than you can get even from remastered CDs. I have heard parts of tracks (in the rhythms and arrangements) that I had never heard before. I have compared CD recordings with the original vinyl, and the original vinyl is far superior. Of course it does depend on what you listen to the music on - my Allen & Heath Zone series headphones really show up the differences!