First extended disco

Marcio** · August 9th, 2003, 08:02 PM

I think this topic was discussed before. Anyway, I know these songs:

1-"Never Can Say Goodbye" by Gloria Gaynor, 1975, 6:28.

2-"Swearin' to God" by Frankie Valli, 1975, 10:09.

3-"Frenesi" by The Ritchie Family, 1975, 8:00.

Marcio** · August 9th, 2003, 08:41 PM

Okey-Dokey, I've forgotten George McCrae's "Rock Your Baby", 1974, 6:23, TK :D .

**jazz_pilgrim** · August 11th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally Written by Marcio

Okey-Dokey, I've forgotten George McCrae's "Rock Your Baby", 1974, 6:23, TK :D .

I've often wondered if there was ever a L-O-N-G version of that record. Was it a seven inch parts 1 and 2 type release? or what? Do you know if it is available anywhere?

**markydefad** · August 11th, 2003, 03:32 PM

I think that long version of "Rock Your Baby" was pieced together years AFTER it was a hit...by mixing the vocal & instrumental versions from the 45 together.

Am I wrong??? There were NO 12" singles in 1974 when it was first released. DJs had to mix the 2-sides of the record together on a nightly basis to extend the tracks.

I do have it on some CD compilation and I did find it on one of those 2 hits by different artists 12" deals that were released in the late 1980s.

I'll have to check for the details..unless someone gets there first.

**Bernie** · August 11th, 2003, 04:25 PM

There was never a 12 inch at the time of original release. I have a Sunnyview 12 inch single (a Henry Stone label) from 1985 which has the "Original Version" on the B side and it only clocks in at 3:14. The A side contains a modern day (circa 86) remix and it clocks in at 4:57.

**markydefad** · August 11th, 2003, 04:29 PM

I have a 6:24 version on some CD compilation. I can't recall the title--it was a series--this was the male vocal edition (Frankie Valli's "Swearin' To God") is on it also.

allmusic lists the 6:24 version on George's "Greatest Hits" CD also.

**QUINNY** · August 11th, 2003, 05:24 PM

Gawd!!! This would involve looking at every record from late '74 'til mid '75 to see which ones say "extended Disco version" or something similar. There were plenty of part 1/part 2 type releases prior to that.

I think the first one I noticed was Helplessly - Moment of Truth and a few others around that time and that was mid '75 or thereabouts. As far as I know, the George McRae track certainly wasn't released in a long version at the time.

To be perfectly honest, the first extended Disco version records were a pain in the ass 'cos they weren't commercially available on 12", played soooooo quietly and had the tendency to hop, skip and jump at times. They got knackered in extra quick time.

**markydefad** · August 11th, 2003, 05:45 PM

That book about the Paradise Garage ("My Life At"..) by that guy who's name I can't recall...tells the story of Tom Moulton mixing the vocal & instrumental versions of Al Downing's "I'll Be Holding On" on what he called the "FIRST 12" "...Tom took this to a club and had a DJ spin it.

Tom railed in his Billboard column about Chess not making this version available to the public--then they did--then they took it off the market---or something like that. It's in the archives of his column.

**NickNack** · August 11th, 2003, 05:45 PM

I avoided running the 45's by buying the album :D , "Rock Your Baby", TK 501, 1974. Song is timed at 6:20.

If I'm not mistaken, weren't most 7" singles released as Parts 1 & 2 given the "full version" on the artists' albums? That's how I remember it.

**markydefad** · August 11th, 2003, 05:55 PM

Ah Nicky...........

So the LP had the extended version from the get-go!!!!

I thought that could be the case--but allmusic didn't list the original LP...so I surmised that it was a cut & paste job from later.

Glad that's resolved.

**NickNack** · August 11th, 2003, 05:57 PM

Let's see... extended disco:

How about "Runaway Child, Running Wild", 9:38, Temptations, 1969 :lol: :lol:

Just kidding --- I would take Creative Source, "Who Is He and What Is He to You", 11:45, 1973. Big in the clubs!

**Greg Wilson** · August 11th, 2003, 06:57 PM

I think you were right on track there with The Temptations NickNack. For my money Norman Whitfield's revolutionary production for the Temps during the early 70's period laid the groundwork for the disco mixes that followed.

The production and mix (or arrangement as it was then called) on the Creative Source track is pure Norman Whitfield, undoubtedly influenced by 'Papa Was A Rolling Stone' (which is almost 7 minutes long).

**QUINNY** · August 11th, 2003, 07:20 PM

NickNack: I'm sorry, but i can't agree with you on Temps and Creative Source as they weren't especially extended for disco use in the accepted use of that phrase. They're merely (rather self indulgent?) long album tracks.

So I boobed over George McRae :oops: I don't recall ever playing that long version from the album, maybe 'cos the second half is just instrumental filler (and pretty boring) that didn't do a lot.

I loved the Creative Source track as a 7" single. Short, concise and ultra danceable. For me the album version just revisited the same territory over and over again and kept going nowhere. That intro was waaaaaay too long!

Good try, but I think the answer lies somewhere in late '74 / early '75.

**NickNack** · August 11th, 2003, 08:40 PM

Originally Written by QUINNY

NickNack: I'm sorry, but i can't agree with you on Temps and Creative Source as they weren't especially extended for disco use in the accepted use of that phrase. They're merely (rather self indulgent?) long album tracks.

I said I was joking about the Temps track so no need to get cranky. As for being 'self-indulgent', well, that's your take. A lot of us took them as new, different, exciting, great to listen to and just pure fun to dance to. "Runaway Child" was the first Motown song where a group of my Air Force buds into rock just had to know who the musicians were. I believe these would be those same Funk Brothers that receive so much well-deserved praise. Nah, couldn't be them, playing on "Runaway Child", "Papa Was a Rolling Stone", "Masterpiece". Such long, boring, self-indulgent tracks...

So I boobed over George McRae :oops: I don't recall ever playing that long version from the album, maybe 'cos the second half is just instrumental filler (and pretty boring) that didn't do a lot.

Surprised you even had the album. 'Instrumental filler' :roll: . Did you ever dance to any of the music you played? You might feel differently about some of this 'filler'. The structure of the lp version of "Rock Your Baby" is the same type mix used by Tom Moulton for all his early remixes, including "Helplessly". You get the intro; the body of the song; the extension, which was nothing but the 'body' sans vocal; the ending. Check out Side One of the Never Can Say Goodbye lp and refresh your memory. Listen to "We're On the Right Track" by Ultra High Frequency, the original remix of "Dream World" by Don Downing. Nothing but 'filler' baby, fierce filler for the dance floor which is all we needed. :D

I loved the Creative Source track as a 7" single. Short, concise and ultra danceable. For me the album version just revisited the same territory over and over again and kept going nowhere. That intro was waaaaaay too long!

There's nothing wrong with the single. That's what helped sell the record. But those of us who had already heard the Bill Wither's version knew there was another one out there. A serious one with a damn strong bass line and an arrangement that could take you to heaven. Intro too long for what? Did you and your crowd have someplace else to be? I played for and partied with people who wanted it all. When I was playing I was expected to give it and when I was dancing I damn sure wanted to hear it. I/We wanted to be taken somewhere and that 11-and-a-half minutes could help me/us get there. No dj I knew would have dared put that 7" on a turntable for a dancefloor. The crowd would have killed him after the managment had fired him. See, for us, it wasn't about dissecting the music, finding fault, thinking "This is doing anything". It was about going with it, having fun, taking that journey to nowhere and back.

Good try, but I think the answer lies somewhere in late '74 / early '75.

I was just trying to have a little fun. You have fun trying to find that very first REMIXED FOR DISCO label.

**Greg Wilson** · August 11th, 2003, 10:04 PM

NickNack & Quinny: Just had a look at what Ian Dewhirst had to say about 'Who Is He And What Is He To You' in the sleevenotes of 'Classic Funk Mastercuts Vol 1'. Thought it might be of interest:

"Creative Source, the obvious choice to kick off not just an album, but the entire series. The group's only substantial hit and nearly 12 minutes long, it has one of 70's street funk's most galvanising intros - snatches would be dropped, teaser-style, in between tracks for an hour before the deejay let the record run..."

Which goes to show that one mans 'galvanising' is another mans 'waaaaaay too long'.

It certainly galvanised, and continues to galvanise me!

Marcio** · August 11th, 2003, 10:52 PM

Thinking better, there's an extended version (or full version) of "The Love I Lost" by Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes but I never put my hands on it. The year of release is 1973. I heard only the pt. 1 like many people.

I'm pretty sure there's an extended version of "Get Dancing" by Disco Tex & The Sex-O-Lettes (1975).

marcio

**jazz_pilgrim** · August 12th, 2003, 01:42 AM

I think that Beethoven was quite well known for his long versions! I reckon that beats you all by a couple of centuries! :lol:

Creative Source waaaay too long? Waaaay to short you mean. I could dance to that hypnotic beat for hours. To my ears, it is still a sensational and ground-breaking record to this very day. And Greg, when I first got a CD player two years ago, Classic Funk Mastercuts was one of the very first Cds I bought - just for that Creative Source track! I do have Telstar Seventies compilation where they have cut down the Creative Source track to less than two minutes ...

On a German compilation I have a five mins plus version of James Brown - Sex Machine (1970). I guess that must have been a subsequent re-edit (not remix) made at a later date. I will check tonight.

The Stylistics put out a six and a half minute version of People Make The World Go Round on their 1971 LP. It has always been popular in the UK clubs over the years.

**ladyboygrimsby** · August 12th, 2003, 04:59 AM

To my knowledge, the first one specifically remixed and extended for discos was BT Express's Do It Till Your Satisfied. It was certainly the first that Tom Moulton did and he pretty much invented the disco remix.

I think it's all in the interview I did with him somewhere. It's posted here if you want to check what he said:

http://www.djhistory.com/books/archiveInterview.php

**QUINNY** · August 12th, 2003, 08:13 AM

LadyBoy: That must be it!

Jazz: The Sex Machine 5 mins + version is probably the LP version that would have been cut into 2 for the 7". I have a 12" with a long version on it. It's merely the two halves of the 7" joined together (i.e. an album version).

NickNack: Working 5 -7 days a week (in 1973/4 when Creative Source came out, I have the US LP - didn't know you were DJing then), at certain periods in my career, I never got to dance to any of the records I played. I've always been a singles guy - short, sharp, exciting. Anything (even Jazz, especially live Jazz - that is a problem as I otherwise enjoy live Jazz) over 6 minutes long and my mind wonders.

Greg: Yeah, one man's caviar is another's salty balls. :lol:

**Nano** · August 12th, 2003, 02:47 PM

More than six minute long jazz pieces boring? I guess Quinny does not enjoy a jazz concert since some time ago... 1960, maybe :)

**QUINNY** · August 12th, 2003, 06:29 PM

Nano: Ahem! I don't think I said that, but misquote me, like everyone else would, if you like.
Jazz has nearly always been about extension and lack of form, way before 1960. I just get twitchy when the Bass player enters the 4th chorus of his solo after everyone else has had umpteen chorus solos too. Even Jazz can get jaded, cliched and ,yes, BORING.

When I promoted some jazz concerts a few years back I deliberately asked the bands to play 3 X 40 minute sets rather than the more usual 2 X 60 minute. That way I knew I had a chance of getting maybe 5, 8 minute tunes rather than 4, 15 minute ones per set. See, even Jazzers felt guilty and awkward about playing just 3 tunes in a set.

**zeca azevedo** · August 13th, 2003, 08:52 PM

Ahhh, the old question again, 45" versus 12"...

I didn't visited the FORUM for a couple of days, but I was thinking about this question just yesterday (do I have nothing more important to think or do these days? :lol: ). I'm probably the only guy 'round here who is into soul'n'funk'n'disco that REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT 12" versions! In fact, I must agree with QUINNY. Ok, the CREATIVE SOURCE song is perfect in its 12 glorious minutes, but this is an EXCEPTION, at least for me. I'm a kind of a 45" lover - for me, DANCE MUSIC (not talking about all kinds of music, ok?) songs with more than 5 minutes get a little boring after a while. I'm more a melody man than a rhythm man, so all this 12", extended versions sounds perfunctory and redundant to me. You guys can call it pre-DISCO sensibility or mentality, I don't mind. Do you want an example? Listen to I CAN'T HELP MYSELF by THE FOUR TOPS. Perfect song, 3 heavenly musical minutes, H-D-H and LEVI STUBBS at the peak of their powers. Now listen to I CAN'T HELP MYSELF by BONNIE POINTER, 45" version. Not nearly as good as the original version, but still OK. Now listen to the EXTENDED version of the same record by BONNIE POINTER... OUCH!!! Horrible stuff. These earlier, 70's 12" versions are nothing more than repetition and adding a few drum breaks here and there - nothing wrong with it, but 9 minutes of the same thing can be boring AND irritating, at least for me. My musical mind was never molded by late 70's DANCE MUSIC standarts - I'm into NORTHERN SOUL, you know? I respect who likes LOOOOOOOOOOOOONGER versions of the songs, but let me tell you, for me nothing is better than this 2 or 3 minutes jewels by MOTOWN and STAX. To do a 12 minute version of a song and succeed is a task for few gifted people, like NORMAN WHITFIELD and ISAAC HAYES (and even these 2 are self-indulgent sometimes). The rest is just "cut and paste" music. When I want to listen to the same thing again and again for an hour and more, I pick my PHILLIP GLASS or my BRIAN ENO ambient albums :lol: .

Peace,

zeca azevedo, give me the 45" version anytime!!!

**efunk_adelic** · August 13th, 2003, 09:09 PM

Originally Written by zeca azevedo

Ahhh, the old question again, 45" versus 12"...I'm probably the only guy 'round here who is into soul'n'funk'n'disco that [i]REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT 12" versions[/i

ummm zeca, I'm the same way... I like it all 8) I think any other way would not make me as versatile as I was and now.

But I agree with you guys on 1 point. 8 or 9 minute versions can be boring and at the top of my head, I can only think of 1 song I like all the way thru. Movin' - Brass Construction however, I like the 7" single version just as much 8) . The advantage of the super long version is that you can mix out of the 1st or 2nd break.

At least we have that option.

**jazz_pilgrim** · August 14th, 2003, 02:54 AM

On the 7" v 12" issue I agree with you guys about boring fade-outs to some extent. On certain singles even I wonder WHAT'S THE POINT??! Fair comment! :)

But with records like CREATIVE SOURCE, when on the dance floor I found I just used to get "LOCKED" into that beat, and then the record would never let go! I just had to hear every last drop of that hypnotic groove! And exactly the same applies to Brass C and Movin’!

But I love the 12" versions mainly for a DIFFERENT reason. I was really in to DANCING and was always regarded as a great dancer. 8) I never needed drink or drugs - I just got so high on the music! And the best bits of the record for me were always the stripped down PERCUSSION BREAKS. Quite often the 7" would cut the break short or not have it at all! And I NEEDED the full length version to get the full length percussion or instrumental break.

Some of the best breaks for me were:

Fat Larry's Band - LOOKIN FOR LOVE TONIGHT
Ripple - THE BEAT GOES ON
T-Connection - DO WHAT YOU WANNA DO

As I said, they were an absolutely essential part of the record for me, and I needed to OWN every beat in those breaks. And that, fellow members, is why I prefer the 12" over the 7" !!!

Fair comment?

**efunk_adelic** · August 14th, 2003, 10:41 AM

jazz, i like your comment about hypnotic groove and of course I forgot about one of my other favorite 12" records of all time...
T-Connection

I also like that one all the way thru :)

Patti Brooks - After Dark 12" or LP version is way better than 7" version I must say...