How Important Were Gay Clubs To Disco Music?

[PaulC]

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[QUINNY]

Many of the worlds famous disco's were gay or mixed. How important were they to disco music?

Overall, I'm not sure they were as significant as many here may believe. The fact that many of the artists and producers were gay is of much more relevance, because what they did in effect was make records to suit the tastes of their friends. In that context, gay clubs may have had a slight advantage over their straight counterparts in obtaining product and those artists having a ready made audience to help boost itheir product's appeal. In the U.S at least, I guess the gay clubs did have a relatively important part to play. In the U.K. and other countries, they were in the minority and generally no-one outside took that much notice of them back in '76 - 79/80 did they? The fact that most of the hetero Brits who post here show their distaste of many 'pure disco music' tracks is a testament to that fact.
I'm sure the gay clubs were as good to their punters as the straight ones were to theirs. It was as much, if not more about meting up with the same people week after week that made any one club special to its patrons. The music was only part of the equation.
The mixed ones possibly had the best of both worlds........or did they?
I'm certain others will have a very different take on things, but that's my tuppence worth.

[markydefad]

As publicist Samantha (Kim Cattrall) told her young stud actor/ boyfriend/protege Smith Jerrod on last week's "Sex & The City"...

(after she had him photographed naked for an Absolut Vodka ad)....

"First the gays, then the women...THEN the industry comes"

So first gay guys notice/ogle him in a bar, then straight school girls mob him on a street corner....

The next week, director Gus Van Sant calls hime for the lead in his next movie...playing a model/hustler/heroin addict!!! :P

BUT..."FIRST the GAYS" :lol:

[paul]

Many of the worlds famous disco's were gay or mixed. How important were they to disco music?

In the U.S at least, I guess the gay clubs did have a relatively important part to play. In the U.K. and other countries, they were in the minority and generally no-one outside took that much notice of them back in '76 - 79/80 did they? The fact that most of the hetero Brits who post here show their distaste of many 'pure disco music' tracks is a testament to that fact.

Thought provoking. Perhaps you can elaborate further on the point that straight Brits were less inclined to enjoy pure disco tracks?

[PaulC]

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[QUINNY]

Paul: IMO, Discos in the UK were very much more into funkier music. Pure disco was just too straight (i.e it didn't swing or snap) and white (copyist) sounding. By 1976, we'd had a fairly long tradition of dancing to Black American music of many different genres as well as records from the Caribbean (Ska for instance from 1965/66/67). There were very, very few gay discos in the UK at the height of Disco music and so their influence would have been fairly non-existant. As a whole, the majority of Brits never bought into the pure disco experience, in quite the same way, or to such an extent, as our American cousins. We danced to a slightly different beat. Pure disco was simply considered too Kitsch and almost from a far distant planet. If you were to look at the U.K. charts from the era, you'd possibly have a big surprise.
There were exceptions of course, but generally that's the way I'd view it.

[paul]

Thanks Quinny.
So I guess to an extent this explains the less than enthusiastic appeal for "Cocomotion." A song like Kleeer's "Keep Your Body Workin'" I guess had a greater overall appeal there because of it's funkier beat.
What does kitsch mean?

[PaulC]

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[jazz_pilgrim]

I would tend to agree with Quinny's points. Not only were discos in the UK into funkier music but also they were into a lot of jazzier music as well. In fact the whole cross section.

I cannot comment on the influence of gay clubs on the 70's scene in the UK, as there weren't any in Kent, as far as I recall.

BUT I have read quite a few books on the sources and developments of disco music in the US. One book that struck me particularly was a book written by Mel Cheren - one of the founders of West End records. He was an integral part of the New York gay disco scene. It is very interesting to note how many of hs records were very much
on the funkier side and became very popular with the British soul fraternity. One very good example is that of Raw Silk and Do It To The Music. He stated in his book how West End Records was going through a lean time, and how this record really took off in Britain, giving his record label's finances a welcome boost. He was very pleased by that.

So obviously, quite a few of the records coming out of the NY gay scene were winging their way across the Atlantic and having an impact on the British scene.

One final footnote. When I finally moved into South London in the mid 80's I developed a circle of clubbing friends which included a few gay people. And they were very much into the same funky jazzy sound that I was, as opposed to pure disco. Indeed, I went to one party in South London once, when my friend and I were the only straight guys there. And the music was simply the best - pure hard driving FUNK all night. Out of all the parties I ever went to in London, that was the best in terms of the music!

:)

[QUINNY]

Paul C: You're misquoting me AGAIN!!!!!!!! Please desist.
The gay rights movement was hardly started in the U.K. '76 - 79/80 and the openely gay population was miniscule. Just like Jazz, I was totally unaware of any gay clubs in my area. The gay issue was a total non event. That sounds to me, like they couldn't have had much influence on anything. Not until later.
Despite what you have written, the gay clubs were not the torch bearers for Black American dance music after the 'death' of disco. In my neck of the woods, we still rooted out the best tracks to play.

Paul: Kitsch means oh!, worthless, (slightly) tacky, pretentious and especially in the context of these boards and disco music, something that just sounded like a wrong'un.

[jazz_pilgrim]

Also, unlike the straight clubs, they continued to play disco after the backlash. (As I beleive they did in American gay clubs).

I presume by backlash, I assume you mean the 'Disco Sucks' event that took place in America in 1979 where a bonfire of 12-inch singles was burned.

If so, then your statement that the straight clubs did not play disco was not true. Certainly not in London. Before I moved in to London, the clubs in Kent were still spinning those 4/4 disco beats. We used to make frequent trips up into London as well. My favourite discos were in the Old Kent Road at the time.

When I moved into London in 1984 the disco/soul/funk scene there was absolutely massive. Fuelled by the explosion of the London pirate soul stations. I remember going to the Best Disco in Town in the Lyceum, which ran from 78/79 right through until around 1985. That was a massive venue - it could plack a lot of people in. When Greg Edwards stopped doing the Best Disco in Town night, the soul pirates simply took over.

What about the Fatback Band - I Found Lovin'. At the time, it seemed that you couldn't turn a street corner without hearing this belting out from somewhere. And Gwen mcCrae? And Rose Royce? And Carl Anderson?

And what about the mid 80's rare Groove scene? A lot of excellent 70's disco records got a new lease of life as a new upmarket crowd picked up on some of the 70's favourite and some rare disco tunes were played for the first time. At the centre of this scene was, of course, the excellent Norman Jay. How influential has he been over the years?

Of course this was when the Hi-NRG scene really took off. And Heaven and such clubs were really massive. Agree with you totally on that 100%! Some of theose tunes made it into our clubs as well - stuff like Eartha Kitt ...Very good tunes they were too!

But there was no doubt about it - in the London "straight" clubs, disco and funk and soul and jazz dance music was still to be found aplenty.


:)

[PaulC]

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[QUINNY]

Paul C: May I remind you that London only accounts for about 12% of the population of England and Southampton is a relatively large city (the biggest on the south coast). Therefore my provincial experience was probably similar for a good 70% of the population, if not more. To me and I would imagine to most of my contempories the gay issue was a total non event.
Hell, even when I played in Marbella in '74-'75 with approximately 14% of the resident population being gay, it didn't have any influence on my life or others whatsoever. This was before gay rights and all that it brought forth.
BTW: I did play in the West End of London, in 1980, for a year, and I visited loads of clubs too in that time. There was no obvious gay influence, so far as I could see and everywhere was dancing to a funky,jazzy,disco beat.

[zeca azevedo]

:D

[paul]

Hey Zeca.
I hear ya. I look at it basically the same way.

[QUINNY]

Zeca: I hear what you're saying, but we're discussing almost 30 years ago. Back then, we did live in very seperate spaces and places.

[Greg Wilson]

There might not have been a visible gay scene in the UK during the 70's, but one particular DJ, who happened to be gay, was hugey influential.

Ian Levine, who broke more records on the Northern Soul scene than anyone (via his legendary venue, Blackpool Mecca), was the first DJ in this country to start making his own records, years ahead of everyone else. These early Northern 'tailor-mades' provided him with the blueprint for his virtual invention of the Hi-Energy genre.

Ian Levine would become the best known DJ on the UK gay scene when he moved to London to take over at Heaven.

The Northern Soul scene provided the roots for another highly respected gay DJ, the late Les Cokell, who was the last DJ to spin a record at the famous Twisted Wheel in Manchester. Les would later become the main DJ on the North-West gay scene, working at Heroes in Manchester.

[Forrrce]

Dave Godin, the godfather of northern soul and the man who, I recall reading, played Shock's 'I Think I Love You' to much disdain from his traditional crowd, stood his ground and declared it a 'modern soul record'...was (is?) gay, I was assured.

[QUINNY]

Greg & Forrrce: This is all very interesting, but does it mean that Gay clubs had a big influence in Disco music? Sure, one can see these people had some influence, but how far did it travel in terms of absolute numbers/percentages?

Ian Levine had some influence in what I played, 'cos yes, I did play some of his productions for a short while. None of his records ever made my 'must play' list. Most of his productions that I ever heard were a fair stab, but ultimately lacked something and sounded rather like poor man's copies to my ears. Some just sounded downright awkward. I did admire him for what he did though in terms of actually making records.

Dave Godin obviously had his say in the likes of Blues & Soul and I suspect he may have reviewed records that I'd eventually play, but is that having an influence, is he a club and would it have been his gayness that influenced me? I can't think it would have been, as anything on the Northern Soul scene, no matter how loosely connected, was a warning sign to avoid, rather than embrace, for me and most of my Southern DJ contemporaries. They went their way, we went ours.

[jazz_pilgrim]

Disco has always been an important part of gay culture, just as it has in America!

PaulC

From the experience gained on your travels, would you say there were big differences in the sort of music played in the London gay clubs as compared with that played in the US clubs? Or was it very similar?

And secondly, would you say that the gay clubs had more influence in the US than the UK, or is it about the same?

:)

[infrasound]

I agree with Marky - "first the gays"! :) Seriously, I would say that gay PEOPLE were more influential to disco than gay clubs were. Even today, with the "advances" in gay rights (don't get me started) there aren't nearly as many gay clubs (gay-owned/operated) as there are straight clubs. But market analyists & economist types have noticed that gay people are trendsetters (such an ugly word) and corporations & businessmen use our community to predict the "next big thing" (another ugly term). I'm sure that was happening in the 70s when gay people were coming together to dance in various clubs, with their funky music....and they brought their women friends along...and then came the straight men, and then came the boom of straight dance clubs.

I wonder if this is a typical pattern in less capitalist nations than the US?

I see this sort of thing happening today. In my town, for instance, we don't have any gay clubs. If you want to go to a gay club, you have to drive about 30 miles to a city. So we make our own clubs in our living rooms and basements and studios, etc. These parties always start out predominantly queer. Eventually, more and more mostly straight women (who are usually welcome) start coming, then bringing their boyfriends (who, granted, are usually more forward-thinking than the average hetero male)...and before you know it, the crowd's totally mixed. Then what happens is the queer people want to create another space that's 100% queer-friendly (because the more straight men that come the less unified the crowd becomes), and by then the straight men are throwing a similar-styled party in a straight club with similar music but for a crowd that's mostly hetero!! And guess whose party gets written about and hyped in the local newspaper and city-guides???

[DISCODISK]

Dave Godin obviously had his say in the likes of Blues & Soul and I suspect he may have reviewed records that I'd eventually play, but is that having an influence, is he a club and would it have been his gayness that influenced me?


eventually being the key word here quinny for the type of d.j you were



I can't think it would have been, as anything on the Northern Soul scene, no matter how loosely connected, was a warning sign to avoid, rather than embrace, for me and most of my Southern DJ contemporaries. They went their way, we went ours.

and what way DID you go quinny? well basically NOWHERE, by your own admission you worked in mainstream clubs mixing pop and the latest chart disco hits,you didnt buy imports as you thought they were too expensive,how easy and safe was that!and you plodded along like that for 15 years all the work was done for you by the upfront d.js that established those records,everybody dancing round their handbags 'easy life' not that theres anything wrong with mainstream clubs you understand every town has to have one
you cant find it in your vocablary to give anyone in this country any praise for achievement from whatever musical form they pioneered,we live in one of the best countries in the world musically and clubwise not just then but now, all because people through hard work and passion for music they make things happen be it through club promotion,scouring the states for unreleased tracks,compiling compilations with love,bringing music to the radio or tracking down acts to bring over to play here with many people loosing money in the process.your contribution to all of this is winge and moan.
so ill ask you what influence YOU had in this country? or shall i answer for you ill say zero,you seem to have set yourself up here as the spokesman for 'us brits' telling the rest of the world how it was here,in truth you have no idea how it was because youre so blinkered you actually end up telling how it 'wasnt' because you wernt there.
as for this latest topic i dont have you down as 'gay friendly' at all and you have probibly never walked past a gay club let alone BEEN in one,so i wont get into this with you, you know what i mean the sky is blue..no its not its red
anyway thankfully the rest of the board are enjoying the music organising events and getting out and about and you just sit there bitter,your moaning,insults and constant provocation is becoming tiresome.

[Greg Wilson]

infrasound: I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

The same thing applies to the black community, who are also 'trendsetters' in our society and know how to throw a great party.

This has been going on for years and years, there are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, the major advances in club culture have been down to either the black or the gay communities.

It normally takes straight white people (especially straight white males) a little while to catch up with things.

This is also the case with music and entertainment in general.

[zeca azevedo]

:D

[Greg Wilson]

Hi Zeca: Of course I can't speak for every country, but with regards to the history of club culture in Western society, you'll usually find black people or gay people right in the thick of things when it comes to the innovations.

Remember that I was talking generally, and tried to qualify my comments by stating that there are exceptions to this.

The site were currently on is a Disco site, much of the formulative aspects of this genre came from blacks and gays. Don't you agree?

As a straight white male myself I'm only being honest, and saying it as I see it. Maybe this will change now that the dynamics of our society are changing. I wasn't suggesting that a social group is inferior or superior full stop, everyone has their own skills and specialities. Hopefully, as we move further into the 21st Century, these issues of race and gender won't be as pronounced as they undoubtedly were during the 20th Century.

Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't intentional.