Why? Why? Why? Casablanca's Decision To Rip-Off Cerrone's LOVE IN C MINOR

[remicks]

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There's gotta be a good juicy story here . I have my theory ...but let's save that for later.


The initial question here is WHY ??

Why did Casablanca find it worthy of their efforts to create an in-house knock-off of this as yet completely unknown newcomer named Cerrone and his debut release of LOVE IN "C" MINOR ??

Someone now is likely shouting, "To make money!!!" .... ya I get that but -

how did they even get wind of this release and then decide it was of such caliber as to not only create a copy ... but to rudely release it and promote it so that it was in direct competition to Cerrone's own version?

Rude , hostile ,
what other words come to mind to describe this maneuver?

Now someone will want to say,
"Remicks, Casablanca just recognized this song's hit potential and made a smart business move to rush release a knock-off version. "


Well OK that would explain the initial Casablanca 12" release of the song :







BUT!

WHY IN THE WORLD did they then take it one step further and release an album that not only contained this Casablanca version of Cerrone's LOVE IN "C" MINOR but additionally a knock-off of another of Cerrone's songs : MIDNIGHT LADY ?????



Even if Casablanca slobbered over the epic LOVE IN C MINOR to the degree of just having to steal it
.... later, they felt as strongly about the second song too?????

Why?? Why were they so hellbent on duplicating Cerrone's debut to this degree??

Again:

Rude , hostile ,
what other words come to mind to describe this maneuver?

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[efunk_adelic]

I was curious of this song as I got a hold of Billboard Magazine. Wasn't able to hear the song until the early 80's. Although a little bit on the "LOVE BOAT" theme sounding, not bad.

[darrens]

Of course, Alec R Costandinos was involved in writing Love in C Minor. How soon after writing it did he sign up with Casablanca for the release of his Love and Kisses albums - would that have been at about the same time? However, I presume Alec had no involvement with Frankie Crocker?

[mrbmarco]

Love In C Minor was still an import when the Casablanca Heart & Soul Orchestra 12" came out. I remember telling Marc Paul Simon I didn't like this version. It was inferior to the original. Our relationship was never the same. I became a trouble maker.

[Bernie]

I too always found Frankie Crocker's Heart and Soul version inferior to Cerrone's original, but mrbmarco mentioning Alec being signed to Casablanca could conceivably have something to do with it as he may have given Casablanca the "inside scoop" on this upcoming release? Never thought of that angle.

[SandraDee]

Rude , hostile ,
what other words come to mind to describe this maneuver?

Opportunistic capitalism? Arrogance? American isolationism?

[the disco kid]

I have a friend that swears by the Heart and Soul version...For myself, nothing will EVER come close the original, It's one of the most beautiful and seductive songs ... it still mezmerises me.

Casablanca was shameless in releasing the H and S version...and their interpretation of "Midnight Lady", leaves much to be desired.

[remicks]

darrens :

Of course, Alec R Costandinos was involved in writing Love in C Minor. How soon after writing it did he sign up with Casablanca for the release of his Love and Kisses albums - would that have been at about the same time? However, I presume Alec had no involvement with Frankie Crocker?

I too always found Frankie Crocker's Heart and Soul version inferior to Cerrone's original, but mrbmarco mentioning Alec being signed to Casablanca could conceivably have something to do with it as he may have given Casablanca the "inside scoop" on this upcoming release? Never thought of that angle.

ooooo.....

I think we could be on to something here


[Mr. Green face]{devilish}



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[kdavid13]

I just loooooooooooove this thread !!! The only reason I ever got the Frankie Crocker version was because I'm such a Casablanca fanatic. Cerrone's original is in a league of its own. But the Alec/Casablanca connection makes a lot of sense.

[remicks]

I just loooooooooooove this thread !!!

And it's going to get better ! We've only just started ! [winky wink]


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[langlang]

i believe there are many factors at work here. of course the casbah,being the disco label was down to try to get their hands into a hot disco cut that was sweeping the world, the bickering among the french disco connection has been documented here and on other sites, so as stated above what better way for alec to stick it to cerrone than to rip his fast moving disco burner. also, this was just about the time that frankie was in the payola scam, was off the air, and neil wanted to give the man some income and put his name out there-plus, never hurts to have the chief rocker involved in your project.

[markydefad]

I don't know the exact date Casablanca signed Costandinos to their label.....but his first release, the Love & Kisses LP featuring "I Found Love (Now That I Found You)" worked its way up the Billboard Top 40 to #4 as an import LP on the French Rei-Vera label. So from June 11,1977 thru July 2, 1977 [3 of those 4 weeks already in the Top 10]-- it's an import--then on July 9, 1977 it's suddenly on Casablanca @ #3.

So Casablanca didn't exactly "break" this record in the U.S.....now maybe they were delayed in getting the domestic version released- [this sounds like a topic for Stephen L. Freeman, a font of Casablanca insider knowledge] ...but it was already a disco hit when Casablanca released their LP. Just for the record.

I always thought that because of the Giorgio Moroder success, Casablanca really had their A&R people watching the trends in Europe...wonder if they tried to sign Cerrone and lost him in a bidding war to Atlantic/Cotillion??? Now that would be a good story. That would make the release of the Frankie Crocker & the Heart & Soul Orchestra cover a "sweet revenge." Now that is purely speculation on my part.

What I can't figure out is why Casablanca's disco-heads couldn't have produced a better cover? It is so inferior...whenever I put it on the turntable, it always sounds like I have it on the wrong speed and then proceeds to sound like a "K-Tel" ripoff.

But apparently Casablanca promo man Marc Paul Simon [legendarily called an "Operator"-- in Grace Jones parlance: "he could sell an Eskimo snow"]...worked the hell out of the Heart & Soul release as "Casablanca's first 12-inch release" and got some major chart action--almost equal to Cerrone in the beginning....then it tails off slightly...but almost NOBODY ever mentions or plays the H&S version after it leaves the charts in May, 1977. The Cerrone version remains Classic Euro Disco. But the very competitive duelling H&S version seems to have slightly eroded the Cerrone versions chart heights...without it maybe Cerrone could have hit #1. [Okay, he did hit #2 [tongue out/slightly red face for hyperbole overload].. while H&S peaked At #4 [way better than it deserved; San Francisco was a major supporter with 6 weeks @ #1]...but without H&S competition, might Cerrone's overall impact been less diluted? Discuss amongst yourselves. [winky wink]]

[markydefad]

additional thought:

oh and there's this songwriting credit weirdness too:

03) (02) LOVE IN C MINOR/ MIDNITE LADY - Cerrone
(U.S. release) Cotilllion LP: 16:08/7:28/ Malligator Import LP) P: Jean-Marc Cerrone // W: Alec R. Costandinos/Cerrone

08) (08) LOVE IN C MINOR - [Frankie Crocker &] The Heart & Soul Orchestra
(Casablanca 12-inch: 12:36) [Special Disco Mix: Paul Dugan] P: Frankie Crocker & Marc Paul Simon
W: Cerrone (Alec R. Costandinos not credited on the 12" but LP version credits Costandinos only--not Cerrone!)

[remicks]

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Excellent work here guys at putting the puzzle pieces on the table !! Don't stop !!

Marcusdefad:

What I can't figure out is why Casablanca's disco-heads couldn't have produced a better cover? It is so inferior...whenever I put it on the turntable, it always sounds like I have it on the wrong speed and then proceeds to sound like a "K-Tel" ripoff

I don't think it was for lack of trying. Look who they sought out to pull it together: Art Wright. He was probably viewed as super hot property right then , coming fresh off the still HOT HOT HOT success of Thelma Houston's DON'T LEAVE ME THIS WAY, which he arranged.

Whether they were disappointed with what he delivered (??) regardless they went with it .


The K-TEL sound ..... ya, why was Casablanca so naive when it came to sound quality ... for discos!!!! ... where it means everything! .......?????????.....

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[kdavid13]

As the songwriter - didn't Casablanca need Cerrone's approval to release their competing version ?

[efunk_adelic]

I'm buying the Heart And Soul version tomorrow on 12" from ebay :p

[markydefad]

Compare for yourselves:

This?



or This? [the longest version I could find on YouTube...still cuts off several minutes]

[remicks]

As the songwriter - didn't Casablanca need Cerrone's approval to release their competing version ?

I found this:

The songwriter(s) owns the rights to the song itself, but generally grants those rights to a "music publisher" to administer the rights.
http://www.copyrightkids.org/permissioninformation.htm

here's a more complete Heart & Soul version Mr. Marky:



now I find pluses and minuses in both versions .



If we think of DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY when listening tothe Art Wright arranged version ...we hear a prominent use of some of the more traditional disco elements ...tambourine ....bongos throughout -which in this case seem to be thrown in there just for the sake of being there (annoying) .

What's blissfully missing from the Casablanca version is the chatter and the silly and unconvincing love romp occurring on the Cerrone version. And I prefer its' slower BPM.

Both unfortunately use that very redundant bass line that (for me) drives me up the wall .

In the end though, the Casablanca version to my ears winds up sounding like a copycat- one of those easy-listening covers with all the original playfulness now missing: even though its by The Heart And Soul Orchestra -that's exactly what's been lost in the remake . It becomes something like one of those theme songs for a TV detective program.

For me there's no denying that the original is much more thoughtful with its many nuances as it moves along through its many changes ... whereas the Casablanca one sounds like it was created under the pressure of an immediate release deadline.

Both versions though seem to be missing a certain warmth and I'm equally bored by what seems to be an aimless endlessness to them .


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[neonlights]

I remember reading a little bit about this in Peter Shapiro's book "Turn The Beat Around." Had to dig out my copy of the book to confirm. I hadn't heard the Heart & Soul Orchestra cover version, or even heard of it until i read about it there. Picked it up a while after, and though not as good as the Cerrone version, I didn't think it was too bad either (sacrilege, i know!). Pretty perfunctory copy-cat version, but I actually kind of enjoyed hearing it with a slightly sparser groove.

Here are the relevant passages (pgs. 102, 104)

Parisians Jean-Marc Cerrone and Alec R. Costandinos first attracted attention when three hundred copies of Cerrone's "Love in 'C' Minor" (which they cowrote), a brazen, sixteen-minute rip-off of "Love to Love You Baby," were mistakenly sent to New York as record store returns and found their way into the hands of local DJs........

.......When a spoiler cover of "Love in 'C' Minor" (by the Heart and Soul Orchestra) came out in the United States before Cerrone's version could get decent distribution, Costandinos (who was also being pushed into the background by a limelight-hogging Cerrone) complained to Casablanca and was promptly offered a production deal to keep him sweet. Costandinos (who had previously produced records for Andy Williams, Paul Anka and Demis Roussos) responded by following the blueprint of "Love in 'C' Minor" and creating disco's most opulent fantasies for the groups Love and Kisses, Sphinx, and the Syncophonic Orchestra (essentially aggregations of London session musicians including Alan Hawkshaw, Don Ray, Katie Kissoon, Madeline Bell and Sue Glover).

Not sure what the exact release dates were, but I guess going by what Shapiro says and markydefad's post earlier, it seems Casablanca were capitalizing on the underground popularity (and relative unavailability at the time) of the Cerrone original.

Going a bit off-topic though, does anyone know exactly which Paul Anka and Andy Williams records Costandinos was involved with?

[Disco Funk]

I wouldn't call the track a rip off. Unless Crocker and his producers renamed the tune something like 'Frankie's Love' or took pieces of the original and put it in his version. It's just a remake, probably not as good as the original. I like it, because it's got the same west coast musicians that played on a lot of disco tunes during that era for Motown and other labels that recorded out west. I also like Midnight Lady, even more than the Cerrone version.

A more copycat sounding version is the Santaren version. The Crocker version was a more soulful funkier interpretation of it.

Is Art Wright the namesake for The Wright Brothers Flying Machine group, the one that did the whole LP that included the Leatherman's Theme from TGIF?



Disco Funk

[discokicks]

A more copycat sounding version is the Santaren version. The Crocker version was a more soulful funkier interpretation of it.


Disco Funk

lol...I can forgive the attempts at creating musical equivalents to Cerrone's blossoming classic at the time but I can't forgive the latent effort of lusty, sound-alike orgasm! I think there was room for a little creative improvisation here (or maybe I'm just a little more creative ....but then again, it was the liberating '70s so there's no excuse)

[Videoskooter]

And maybe this one pleases the people who are into the Supernatural sounds. Always loved this one! Credits on this one, Cerrone/Costandinos. Regarding the discussion, my 2 cents, Casablanca wanted the track, Costandinos was signed to them, Cerrone wasn't, Costandinos and Cerrone were not good friends at that time, so maybe...

[FunkyChris]

Is the Santaren version played too fast or has it really such high bpm?

I must admit that I like to hear other versions. But Cerrone's version will always be the best!

[Videoskooter]

Is the Santaren version played too fast or has it really such high bpm?

I must admit that I like to hear other versions. But Cerrone's version will always be the best!

Chris, this is how it really sounds: http://losmolestones.blogspot.com/se...vin%C2%B4Girls

[FunkyChris]

Chris, this is how it really sounds: http://losmolestones.blogspot.com/se...vin%C2%B4Girls

Thanks for the link. Now that one's on my wantlist. :-)