Making new disco

[tyree_kevin]

I wonder what goes into to making a disco record? I know instrumentation, production, engineering. Is there a such thing as "record finance" like film finance?

Many people have said that making new disco would be "expensive" but classic orchestral records are still being at scale. Anybody?

[BrunoRepublic]

Classical orchestral records are typically recorded direct to two-track, much of the material is public domain, and often the orchestra is paid a one-time fee instead of royalties on sales. Consequently, production costs are quite low. The ongoing costs to keep a title in print are much lower than with anything contemporary, which is how the business is profitable: the music has a very, very long shelf life. Recordings may not sell much in the short-term, but classical labels can market the same recordings for decades. It's not like it would ever sound dated in the "so last year" sense of the term.

Disco -- at least for the big-sounding classic records -- requires not only an orchestra, but multi-track recording, an army of skilled studio musicians, engineers and effects. There are royalties and publishers to pay in addition to all the performers. While the costs of multi-track recording have plunged in recent years, it's not possible to produce a true disco record in your bedroom. You still need a decent studio, and that costs money.

To break even, such a production would need to sell many thousands of units. That would require major-label promotion and distribution, and with pretty much all major and minor labels struggling these days, it would be a tough sell. I wouldn't expect any significant interest from DJs either, since mainstream demand for disco is close to nil, and nowadays it seems most DJs just play a very narrow style of music to define a sound for themselves.

In other words, making a vintage-style disco record is a hell of a lot more complicated and expensive than any classical record, and tougher to sell. Remember the rule of capitalism when it comes to the marketplace: if there was any money to be made in it, someone would already be doing it.

[boogienights]

Thats why I am always astounded when people write off disco.I think its amazing the amount of sounds I hear emanating from the records.There is a lot going on in so much of the music.

[Alliance80]

You're right, disco has that special "something" that most dance music nowadays is lacking. Not to mention that with the amount of records released, you had all these different sounds. One record might have synths, another might have rock guitars, another could be done in Scottish style with bagpipes, etc... I haven't seen any artists or bands mixing it up like that nowadays.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I was kinda wondering about what went into the production of disco music myself & I had some questions of my own:

1. Would it be possible to cut back on costs by just having one violin player, one trumpeter, etc, overdubbing the tracks & getting the same or similar effect as with a full orchestra?

2. What would count as a "decent studio" for this type of music?

3. Could you make your own electronic disco records with just a vintage analog synth (e.g., Minimoog, ARP Odyssey, etc...), a sequencer and a drum kit?

[BrunoRepublic]

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I was kinda wondering about what went into the production of disco music myself & I had some questions of my own:

1. Would it be possible to cut back on costs by just having one violin player, one trumpeter, etc, overdubbing the tracks & getting the same or similar effect as with a full orchestra?

That wouldn't be any cheaper, because you'd be paying them by the hour. 1/4 of the players x 4 for all time to do the overdubs = same cost. Oh, and it makes mixdown even more complicated. Plus, I forgot to mention, unless you know how to arrange and score a piece for an orchestra, you'll have to pay someone to do that for you. That's a very specialized talent, and it doesn't come cheap.

2. What would count as a "decent studio" for this type of music?

One with lots of very expensive mics, EQ, reverb units. Quality multi-track recording can now be done on a home computer, but decent microphones and amps still cost a fortune. Plus you'd need to pay an engineer for their expertise; this stuff is not plug-and-play. Right there, unless you are independently wealthy, it's out of the range of affordability. Since the music industry is basically withering away, there's no way you'll be selling millions of copies of your track... you'll be lucky if you sell a few hundred.

To give you an idea of the cost of things, I read that Patrick Adams recorded Musique's Keep On Jumpin' LP on a budget of $16,000. That works out to about $52,000 in today's figures. Now, factor in this:

- That was very low-budget for the time! It was not recorded in a top-notch studio. You notice it doesn't quite have the same "sparkle" as some of the major label recordings. It sounds great because it's great music, not because it's a great recording.
- It's only got three songs ("Summer Love Theme" is just an instrumental mix of "Summer Love")
- Patrick Adams was a genius at getting the most sound out of the simplest set-ups.
- In interviews he mentioned that the musicians and vocalists he worked with were also true pros, and could usually get their parts down perfect in a couple of takes... which was essential for keeping studio costs down.

3. Could you make your own electronic disco records with just a vintage analog synth (e.g., Minimoog, ARP Odyssey, etc...), a sequencer and a drum kit?

That is entirely possible with software today; no physical synths or drum kit required. You can get software emulations of both the Minimoog and Odyssey for about €100 each, and they're far more reliable than the real ones. There are thousands upon thousands of people doing this sort of music already... but does anyone care?

[tyree_kevin]

Then again Faze Action, Black Science Orchestra, Masters at Work among others have made disco in the present day and made it work. There is a world-wide disco / jazz-dance underground that in opinion would support such a movement. More on this later.

[tyree_kevin]

So Bruno: What you`re saying that in order to make a real disco record it would costs in the neighborhood of 85,000-100,000 dollars. In my way of thinking we need to start talking about how to finance these things. I asked the question is there a such thing as "record finance" like film finance?

[Cory Ander]

I once attended a recording session organized by grammy winning producer/writer Narada Michael Walden, so I had some idea of how records were produced. But since so much of the best disco reflected the time in which it was produced (in my mind, anyway), trying to recreate it now would probaby be as difficult and/or impossible as trying to recreate the Motown or Stax sounds. And don't forget that so many of the people who were instrumental in creating so much of the music we love are gone now (as if it were even possible to forget that). I wonder if that's why so many of disco's shining lights (Giorgio Moroder, Nile Rodgers, Walden, Mauro Malavasi, Patrick Adams, Silvester Levay.....) don't seem very interested in producing new music. Maybe they have no financial reason to do so, maybe they're concerned about how it would be received? Whatever the reason, my classic disco records are like solid gold to me now....in fact, they are my most prized possessions. 9/2/2010

[BrunoRepublic]

I wonder if that's why so many of disco's shining lights (Giorgio Moroder, Nile Rodgers, Walden, Mauro Malavasi, Patrick Adams, Silvester Levay.....) don't seem very interested in producing new music.

Leaving aside the fact that many of these artists are at retirement age and either are out of ideas or have said all they had to say... these artists were all in the business of selling records, and the music they were doing at the time sold big numbers back then. That same music wouldn't sell today. In interviews, Moroder has stated that he knew disco wouldn't last forever, and he was glad that he'd moved on to soundtracks when the scene imploded. He also does a whole bunch of other things too, like design cars IIRC.

Malavasi was never a disco act per se but a songwriter, and AFAIK, he continued to write songs for Italian artists long after JFP's kleptocracy of a musical empire crumbled.

[BrunoRepublic]

So Bruno: What you`re saying that in order to make a real disco record it would costs in the neighborhood of 85,000-100,000 dollars. In my way of thinking we need to start talking about how to finance these things. I asked the question is there a such thing as "record finance" like film finance?

In terms of financing music productions, well, that's exactly what the big record companies did. Thing is, they would only do it for something they thought they could make a buck on. A 30 year-old genre still laughed at and reviled by the masses isn't going to cut it.

I say "did" because the music industry is disappearing like a sinking ship. Sales are less than half of what they were ten years ago, and falling faster and faster. Digital sales are not making up for this, not by a long shot. Record stores are vanishing, indie labels (and just as importantly, their distributors) are going bust, major labels are either on the verge of bankruptcy (EMI) or being propped up by other parts of their multi-unit businesses and looking desperately for buyouts or mergers. Meanwhile, they are dropping acts and shedding staff all over the place.

The days of six-figure album advances and epic productions are OVER.

[mrbmarco]

5 years ago, Vince Montana Jr did record a new disco song. THAT'S WHAT LOVE DOES. You can find it on the Spirit of Philadelphia 2 CD from the UK.

[Alliance80]

In terms of financing music productions, well, that's exactly what the big record companies did. Thing is, they would only do it for something they thought they could make a buck on. A 30 year-old genre still laughed at and reviled by the masses isn't going to cut it.

I say "did" because the music industry is disappearing like a sinking ship. Sales are less than half of what they were ten years ago, and falling faster and faster. Digital sales are not making up for this, not by a long shot. Record stores are vanishing, indie labels (and just as importantly, their distributors) are going bust, major labels are either on the verge of bankruptcy (EMI) or being propped up by other parts of their multi-unit businesses and looking desperately for buyouts or mergers. Meanwhile, they are dropping acts and shedding staff all over the place.

The days of six-figure album advances and epic productions are OVER.

Yeah, I've heard a bunch of people saying that about the music industry. Question is, as The Trammps once said, "Where Do We Go From Here"?

[Bernie]

Yes, Vince did release that and others and they were quite good. You Are My Everything [feat. Double Exposure], That's What Love Does, and The African Track which was an unreleased track from the '70s along with modern remixes.

See: http://www.discomusic.com/search/?we...ll&where=title

[BrunoRepublic]

Yeah, I've heard a bunch of people saying that about the music industry. Question is, as The Trammps once said, "Where Do We Go From Here"?

For old-style disco, we don't go anywhere. Cory Ander touched on part of the reason in his response. Disco didn't just appear out of a vacuum, it was a product of its time. It was made possible by a whole system involving the music industry, the musicians and professionals who were supported by that industry, the public who funded that industry, and most importantly, how all these things related to each other at that specific point in time... and that time has passed. The system which allowed this music to exist no longer exists. The people, the business, the money, the demand are all gone. This is particularly bad for disco because it, more than any other genre, was dependent on all those external factors to exist in the first place. You can't make a convincing-sounding disco record in your bedroom like you could with contemporary dance music. In essence, that's why Hi-NRG and Italo came into being: there was no longer mainstream support for the lavish production needed for disco, so those who wanted any dance music at all filled the void with lower-cost synths and drum machines.

Other genres, which require far less elaborate productions, can now exist on a micro scale with support from a small fanbase. It's now possible to create semi-professional sounding punk/electronic/indie rock in a home studio, which would've been much too expensive 20 years ago, and unthinkable 30 years ago. I make my own retro-ish electronic music with little more than a 3 year-old iMac, and I can get results which would've cost five figures a couple of decades ago. However, Disco cannot be done this way, because as I pointed out earlier, the things which made disco what it was can never effectively be replaced by low-cost technology. The epicness of it all was central to its existence.

[tyree_kevin]

I think we can from here! Once again Faze Action, "Astral Projection" is one of the best records I`ve ever heard. Black Science Orchestra and The Nuyoricans made serious noise a few years back. Disco was even more reviled back then.

I think it would by marketing it to the dance music underground.

I think part of the problem is we`re not looking at ways to make it work. Instead we`re looking at ways it wouldn`t work.

Thanks for the replies fellas you`re making me think!

[tyree_kevin]

Well said Bruno.

[Alliance80]

Since it's possible to make semi-professional sounding electronic or indie-rock songs, that tells me it's possible to make 70's style electro disco with just a synth (or software emulator), sequencer & drum kit, but what about other elements? A number of electro disco songs also had electromechanical pianos, bass guitars, or regular disco guitars, so if you threw in one or more of those, can you still do 70's-style electro disco in a home studio?

[Disco Funk]

Bobby Eli has his own studio called Studio E. He's also been working on some stuff that sounds like the classic disco sound, using some of the original MFSB members. But as you can see from this clip, it's not a huge studio, they barely fit the rhythm section inside. I don't think a 40 piece orchestra would fit.



Disco Funk

[paul]

Bruno, the disappearing music industry is their own fault in my opinion. I know you know more about this than I do but I believe they began to cheapen the music in the mid 80s. I heard less of the more expensive orchestra and session work. They just got cheap and went over the top with strictly looking at the bottom line. I don't really fault the kids today because I feel many of these young artist have talent.
As a result, the music became and is more mechanical, computerized, and less creative. I look at it this way. Much of the pop music today is not much different if at all, from the music available 30 years ago. Then I compare that to the late 70s disco music. There was no way I'd be hearing 1940's music or do-wop on pop stations much less the discos/clubs.

[tyree_kevin]

You know Paul that`s exactly what I was thinking about the music industry, yesterday (Monday). I was listening to Jody Whatley (1987) vs. The Whispers (1979). The first thing that stood out was the cheapness. To think they came from the same stable, SOLAR. Wasn`t that Janice Gower who orchestrated SOLAR?

You right they shot themselves in order to increase their profit / cash margins.

To me this is an opening that the Daptone stable expoilted. If Sharon Jones can make real soul why can`t we make real disco? Sharon Jones, The Dap-Kings, Amy Winehouse, Duffy are making real soul.......what`s to stop somebody from making real Northern Soul?

[Alliance80]

Bruno, the disappearing music industry is their own fault in my opinion. I know you know more about this than I do but I believe they began to cheapen the music in the mid 80s. I heard less of the more expensive orchestra and session work. They just got cheap and went over the top with strictly looking at the bottom line. I don't really fault the kids today because I feel many of these young artist have talent.
As a result, the music became and is more mechanical, computerized, and less creative. I look at it this way. Much of the pop music today is not much different if at all, from the music available 30 years ago. Then I compare that to the late 70s disco music. There was no way I'd be hearing 1940's music or do-wop on pop stations much less the discos/clubs.

You know, a lot of electronic disco sounds mechanical to me, but you know what? It still has that same feel as regular disco music, not to mention that a bunch of electro disco songs sound beautiful (especially stuff from Space). To me, the arrangements are what set electronic disco apart from other genres of electronic dance music (not to mention the use of period-correct instruments).

[oki_doki]

Here's the story of someone who wanted to re-create a symphonic disco record in 2008. He kinda struggled but he eventually did it, the record is great but I doubt sales were high. The name of his one-shot ensemble says it all: the "Million Dollar Orchestra". http://www.milliondollardisco.com/mdo.html

Frankly speaking, if you really want to cut costs, first you need to rely on your own abilities only and do everything yourself. i.e. you need to be able to be a mixing engineer, a conductor, an arranger, a songwriter, etc. I don't know you but very few people can do just that. And, second, use state-of-the-art digital instruments, usually mixing physical models and samples. I won't give names (because I don't remember them) but few and horribly expensive digital products exist, for almost every kind of purpose, from faking classical guitars to full-blown orchestras - lots of soundtrack composers use this kind of products with some results.

[tyree_kevin]

Thanks Oki_Doki: I`m on Al Kent`s list. I`m kinda fimilar with his productions. I never said I wanted to cut costs, everybody else said that. That`s why I brought up the thing about "record finance" comparing it to "film finance". IF YOU UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT FINANCE YOU WILL ALWAYS FIND THE MONEY TO FINANCE ANYTHING YOU WANT.I study finance Oki! Hehehehe

Have you ever heard the 16 minute version of Isaac Hayes "Menage A Trois"?

[tyree_kevin]

Hey Fellas I`ve noticed you`ve touched on "electronic disco" or "space disco" give an idea of your definition. Name some records.

[oki_doki]

yeah, well , sorry. Your question was straightforward but after reading the whole thread I had forgotten the original message, indeed. From what I've read/learnt, there is no such thing as "record finance" in the music business, I hope I'm wrong though.