Billboard Dance Charts

[DSFan713]

Hi all,

I was just wanting to ask a question regarding Billboard's Hot Dance Club Charts.
During the 70's, There were a lot of chart entries that Hit #1 "all cuts" where a whole album charts as one. Or a Double A sided hit charted as one.

Why did Billboard only give the artist credit for 1 song instead of 2 in a case of (Double A sided hit)?

Example: Hot Stuff/Bad Girls - Donna Summer 1979. She got credit for 1 song not 2.
Wouldn't that cheat/short the artist out of their chart statistics? Meaning today in 2009, I think Donna Summer should be credited for more than 15 #1 chart entries over her career span.

WC

[tmob]

Paging Mr. Marky!

But I'll take a shot at this. I think it came down to a matter of methodology, and it was somewhat imperfectly applied. Look at the "Once Upon a Time" LP--charting individual cuts there means you could have had 5 or 6 [or more!] different tracks, each ranking separately on the same week's chart.

You could also make the case that, as imperfect as the "combining" method may have been, it helped some records chart higher than the individual tracks would have done separately (I'm thinking here of the Supremes' "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" LP, for one). That's why I don't think you can automatically assume that since "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls" was a #1 charting entry, both songs should be considered #1's.

Just my two cents...

[markydefad]

First off, I can only guess.

As tmob wrote, Billboard had their methodology rules. Some of them are mysterious and head-scratching, some more obvious or, bottom line, are just for practical purposes, like it takes less print space to write "All cuts" than to list five or six titles on the chart.

[See my later post in this thread for a clarification on the answer here.]

In the case of "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls"--the two songs are mixed together on the LP as a "medley" for continuous play and were played as such in most discos, as I recall. Occasionally, you will hear an old mix with one separated from the other, but most times they were played in tandem. [Playing one without the other seemed incomplete somehow, at least to my ears.] Technically, they weren't an "A" & "B" side--they were BOTH on the "A" side---given that Casablanca mostly released only 1-sided 12" records (the b-side was not playable).

[Checked Discogs and I see that there was an early promo of "Hot Stuff" on 12-inch by itself--says "from the forthcoming Casablanca LP "Bad Girls."]

The whole LP (except for side 3 with the ballads) got an enormous amount of clubplay--that's 11 dancefloor tracks available to program. "Our Love" and "Sunset People" were particular faves at Trocadero in SF.

On the Billboard Pop chart, they get separate listings as #1 hits because they were released individually to radio: "Hot Stuff" in April 1979; then, only a month later, in May, 1979, "Bad Girls." This is kinda unusual for a record company to do--ususally they would let the first hit peak before releasing the follow-up--I suppose that radio might have been playing the 2 songs mixed together from the LP so they figured they might as well release both in the 7-inch format and get chart action for two titles.

Just my guess. Stephen may have a more astute insider DJ answer.

[tmob]

All Marky said.

Casablanca released only 1-sided 12" records (the b-side was not playable).

[Checked Discogs and I see that there was an early promo of "Hot Stuff" on 12-inch by itself--says "from the forthcoming Casablanca LP "Bad Girls."]

Not always 1-sided records...for instance, Pattie Brooks' "This is the House Where Love Died" is on the flip side of "Heartbreak in Disguise." The Village People's "Citizens of the World" is on the flip of "Go West." There are other examples.

I think the "Hot Stuff" you're referring to is the Casablanca 20159, the "white label" pressing.

[PierreConstantin]

In the case of "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls"--the two songs are mixed together on the LP as a "medley" for continuous play and were played as such in most discos, as I recall. Occasionally, you will hear an old mix with one separated from the other, but most times they were played in tandem. [Playing one without the other seemed incomplete somehow, at least to my ears.] Technically, they weren't an "A" & "B" side--they were BOTH on the "A" side---given that Casablanca mostly released only 1-sided 12" records (the b-side was not playable).

[Checked Discogs and I see that there was an early promo of "Hot Stuff" on 12-inch by itself--says "from the forthcoming Casablanca LP "Bad Girls."]

On the Billboard Pop chart, they get separate listings as #1 hits because they were released individually to radio: "Hot Stuff" in April 1979; then, only a month later, in May, 1979, "Bad Girls." This is kinda unusual for a record company to do--ususally they would let the first hit peak before releasing the follow-up--I suppose that radio might have been playing the 2 songs mixed together from the LP so they figured they might as well release both in the 7-inch format and get chart action for two titles.

A little comment on the side about the two songs being an indivisible suite:
In Europe the two songs were two different 12"s, each one with the B-side of its own 7".
Two more things:
1- The "Hot stuff" Euro 12" is slightly different than the non-stop medley: the guitar that ends at 6:30 on the US 12" keeps on playing until the final 6:45 on the Euro 12". Besides the songs ends with a fading (the last line is "gonna need your love tonight").
2- The picture showing a leg (on the right), on the back of "Bad girls" UK 12", is not available elsewhere I think.

[DSFan713]

Thank you so much guys for all the responses. You guys have an unbelieveable amount of knowledge, appreciate all these opinions on the topic, and it all makes sense now as to why they did things the way they did. Talk soon

[markydefad]

DSfan713--I assume the "DS" stands for Donna Summer?

I went back to the actual Billboard charts from 1979 to check the stats:

This is how it played out:

w/e 4/21/79: "Hot Stuff" debuts @ #77 (Casablanca *non-commercial 12-inch)
w/e 4/28/79: "Hot Stuff" moves to #43 (12-inch*)
w/e 5/05/79: "Hot Stuff" moves up to #27 (now listed as LP/12-inch*)
w/e 5/12/79: "Hot Stuff" moves up to #16 (LP/12-inch*)
w/e 5/19/79: "Hot Stuff" moves up to #2 (LP/12-inch*)

Then as it reaches #1--the listing becomes:
w/e 5/26/79: "Bad Girls" (all cuts - LP/12-inch*) moves to #1 --for 7 weeks/ toppled by "Born To be Alive" - Patrick Hernandez)

So Joel Whitburn, in his chart book, just abbreviated the listings as "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls" ...I'm glad I went back to look it up. After 24 weeks, on 9/22/79 "Bad Girls" is last charted at #77.

Then on 10/20/79: "Dim All The Lights" debuts as a 12-inch @ #65; it lasts for 7 weeks, peaking at #54--having been mostly played out in the preceding months, I guess.

The next week (10/27/79) sees the release of the superstar duet with Barbra Streisand "No More Tears (Enough Is Enough)" debuting @ #50...on its way to #1 for 4 weeks.

The next month, on 11/17/79, "On The Radio" debuts @ #82...

So Donna was represented for several weeks with 3 different titles on the Billboard Disco charts:
"Dim All The Lights" (peaks @ #54)
"No More Tears (Enough Is Enough)" (#1 for 4 weeks)
"On The Radio" (peaks @ #8)

Lastly, on the 1979 Billboard year-end charts:
Donna Summer tops the "Disco Top Audience Response Singles/LPs" @ #1 with just "Hot Stuff"---no mention of the whole LP....or maybe they forgot the LP was titled "Bad Girls?"

[tmob]

Lastly, on the 1979 Billboard year-end charts:
Donna Summer tops the "Disco Top Audience Response Singles/LPs" @ #1 with just "Hot Stuff"---no mention of the whole LP....or maybe they forgot the LP was titled "Bad Girls."

Interesting point...but not altogether surprising. As you know (probably more so than anyone else), the year-end charts were where Billboard's methodology got really wacky.

[markydefad]

Interesting point...but not altogether surprising. As you know (probably more so than anyone else), the year-end charts were where Billboard's methodology got really wacky.

Yep I think the Billboard interns did the year-end charts--because anyone who'd been paying attention all year long, should have said--"Now wait a minute--that's not the way we charted it!!" :icon_exclaim:

It's a consistent problem with certain hit titles just ommitted from the year-end lists for no apparent reason! :icon_eek::icon_exclaim::icon_twisted:

[tmob]

It's a consistent problem with certain hit titles just omitted from the year-end lists for no apparent reason! :icon_eek::icon_exclaim::icon_twisted:

Or songs that mysteriously placed higher than they would have if a methodology similar to yours was being used. Of course, there may have been other factor$ involved, too.

[drlove]

The Billboard methodologies for their 1974-1982 disco charts were indeed often changing and quite wacky. Often, a new dance 12-inch would be moving up the charts, and then when the LP is released that would include that particular hit, the song title would just disappear from the actual chart entry in favor of the entire LP. Sometimes, though, a sizeable enough "gap time" between the 12-inch and the LP's release would allow both to be hit chart entries. Notable examples were (1) the 7-week February/March '76 reign at #1 of "That's Where The Happy People Go", and then the May '76 forward 11-week reign at #1 of the new LP release Where The Happy People Go., and (2) the January '79 brief top-ten hit status of First Choice's "Hold Your Horses" and then THREE months later, in the Spring of '79, the new top-ten status of the just-released LP Hold Your Horses.

[Salsoul1975]

Of course, there may have been other factor$ involved, too.

Yeah, like RSO Records' singles dominating the #1 position on Billboard's Hot 100 in 1978 and every track from the Bee Gees' "Spirits Having Flown" album going to #1 in 1979.

[DiscoCat78]

The songs listed are actually not counted as one but as 2 even though they were released on the same piece of vinyl and the actual release is what charted. The conventional thought is that both were being played equally so this gave extra weight to the chart performance. Harold Melvin and The Blue Notes "Bad Luck" was one song that spent 11 weeks at #1 and Michael Jackson's "Thriller" (All Cuts) also spent 11 weeks at #1. Hope this helps, I read a lot of the Billboard methodologies on chart performance and this is what I understand.

[PierreConstantin]

Of course, there may have been other factor$ involved, too.

Yeah, like RSO Records' singles dominating the #1 position on Billboard's Hot 100 in 1978 and every track from the Bee Gees' "Spirits Having Flown" album going to #1 in 1979.

RSO and Casablanca were famous for manipulating the charts: both labels had somebody hired for this particular job (in this case to convince chart editor Bill Wardlow).

BILL WARDLOW

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

RSO and Casablanca were famous for manipulating the charts: both labels had somebody hired for this particular job (in this case to convince chart editor Bill Wardlow).

Actually, that's not the case.

Robert Stigwood hired Al Coury as President, to run RSO Records. And Al Coury dealt, directly, with Bill Wardlow, regarding the charts. Not anyone else, on the RSO staff.

Over at Casablanca, Vice President & co-founder, Larry Harris, dealt, directly, with Bill Wardlow, regarding the charts. Not anyone else, on the Casablanca staff.

(source: Larry Harris, during my interview with him, last month.)