Reply With Quote"Never give you up", ok, but why this song particularly?
Acetate [Level 1]
Came across this book (published by Blackwell Publishing in 2007) recently, which is a serious attempt to rate and describe iconic things in popular culture. It has chapters written by different authors on such topics as "Best Batman Story", "Best Motorbike", "Best Serial Killer Novel", "Best Sneakers", etc.
Anyway, one of the chapters is entitled "The Best Disco Record: Never Give You Up by Sharon Redd". It is written by Simon Frith, and is a very interesting read. He devotes 10 pages to a scholarly and philosophical discussion of why he thinks this is the best disco record ever.
Take a look if you can.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
"Never give you up", ok, but why this song particularly?
Indie Release [Level 4]
Hi,
I would have thought that the fatal flaw in his argument is that this isn't actually a disco song. It is quite clearly post-disco. I suppose electro-funk would be the best description.
It's quite good though. Although in this genre I would reckon D-Train did superior stuff. Just a personal opinion.
Cheers,
Tim Tam
Acetate [Level 1]
I guess to stifle the "good track but quite obviously not the best disco song ever" arguments, I'll expand a bit on what he says. These are just some snippets in what is a scholarly argument (that invokes both Heisenberg and Roger Scruton!).
He admits that at a certain level his choice is essentially random. This happens to be the record he has played more than any other.
He argues that "Never Give You Up" is close to perfection precisely because it is late-period disco and "standardised". It doesn't have the "experimental or tentative or confused nature of the pioneering dance tracks of the 1970s." In a genre where standardisation is of the utmost importance, the most "standard" song is the best.
He thinks disco music has been critically undervalued because it is very difficult to describe. The are no descriptive terms for the "noises" you hear in a disco record. Disco songs are not "tunes in the sense of a melodic narrative".
He points out that all disco songs have huge self-reflexivity: they are about disco itself. "Never Give You Up" is not a record about Redd’s feelings but about what it is to express feelings as a kind of music.
No interpretation is needed to listen to disco music. There is no gap between hearing, feeling and moving to the noise.
He says that the writers of disco songs are of no interest: only the artists and producers/mixers matter.
He concludes by saying that he could never make his judgment stick academically, because there has been so little academic discussion of disco music. In fact, he would probably be "aggrieved" if anyone else did agree with him about the best disco song. He likes to think he's the only person who's ever really appreciated "Never Give You Up".
Platinum Record [Level 8]
"In a genre where standardisation is of the utmost importance, the most "standard" song is the best."
Who is this Firth person? Arguments like the above quotation clearly show he has little if zero understanding of disco music. Another dubious, to put it very midly, assertation is:
"Disco songs are not "tunes in the sense of a melodic narrative"."
What about the following:
"He points out that all disco songs have huge self-reflexivity: they are about disco itself. "
This is where he does have a point - sort of. But if you go with this where do you draw the line in relation to musical genres? Are all bossa tracks about the bossa nova movement, in essence pretty close to disco in terms of sociological/behaviourist content?
"No interpretation is needed to listen to disco music. There is no gap between hearing, feeling and moving to the noise."
Like there would be no interpretation needed nor coding of ANY sort, to watching a film? Bollocks :-) !
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
As with all intellectualisation or disection of popular music in my experience, this is interesting to read but ultimately, pointless bullshit. Just enjoy what you enjoy listening to & dancing to for crissakes!
...ya gotta beat the street......
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
Any time I read about how someone has determined what the "best" of anything is using some arbitrary pseudo-scientific process, I mentally file the results away in the same place as all those "100 best records of all time" or "500 records you must hear before you die" lists: under B for bullshit.
All these are just attempts to masquerade the author's opinions as verifiable facts (and the "top 100" lists are inevitably a mixture of albums with long-term popularity and the author's own bias). Such values are arbitrary and should have no influence on a person's opinion. The only meaningful answer to what the best song ever is can only be what *you* think is the best song ever at the moment you answered the question.
One can quantify popularity based on sales, but even then, the results are flawed. Popularity doesn't equal quality, and even if it did, there are far too many variables that determine how popular something can be (such as how many people ever get exposed to it in the first place). Many recordings that once sold in huge numbers have since been largely forgotten, other once-obscure songs later gain a following that far surpasses the response on their original release.
One can try to judge recordings by their subsequent influence, but that too is something that defies any sort of quantifiable reasoning and is easily manipulated by bias. Besides, almost all works of art are somehow derivative of something else, so it may be a question of who influenced the influencers.
Don't judge movies based on how many Oscars they win, records on how many Grammys they got, how many self-appointed critics praise it, or any such other nonsense. Experience things for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
Gold Record [Level 7]
Originally Written by BrunoRepublic
applause...
"MUSIC IS AN EMOTION, SEARCHING FOR IT'S VOICE"
...come with me, "BACK TO MUSIC", on DISCOTERIA
http://www.live365.com/stations/cdnbob2
Underground Hit [Level 5]
Simon Frith is a smart and perceptive writer. He's authored and edited several well-respected books, worked as a professor, and chairs England's annual Mercury Prize for music.
It's a good thing that an honored academic would write about disco.
I'm reminded of when Quinny bragged that he never finished a book. That's the kind of statement that undermines one's credibility.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Hi Guys, Hope your hangovers are easing :icon_biggrin:
Robt don't be offended, nice to see your post about the Frith book... but taking up Jussik's post, I was reminded of some 'tongue in cheek' posts about this sort of 'scoring' that were posted up a while back, and thought it might give a few people a New Years Giggle (as most of today's world news is so depressing) ......enjoy :icon_biggrin::icon_lol:
........Yes, Travolta, Rick Dee's, Baccara et al.........Can all be rated with a formula. I used it for my dissitation and got a straight A.
Start with...........
" 'Disco' Music recordings can be best considered in graphical form with a vertical and horizontal axis.
The horizontal axis 'X' rates the 'Disconess' of the record in question, and the Vertical axis 'Y' rates the 'sales potential' of the record.
By plotting the 'Disconess' and the 'Sales Potential' in this way you can then multiply the X axis with the Y axis and by 'doing the math' you will arrive at the integer that rates that particular 'Disco' record.
............"Begone J Evans Pritchard" (wrt Keating c.90's)
All the Best.......... Pat McGroin
----
Pat,
It helps if instead of the X and Y axis a reference to the subject matter in question is utilised.
I would suggest as a title for the X axis - Discodisway
and for the Y axis - Discodatway
What do you think ?
Now you see that sort of thinking could have gotten you a Straight A+
Top O the Mornin'
Rick O Shea
------
Gents,
I have been working on a Disco report for my collegiate in Iceland for two weeks, and I am really keen to use your methods.
however, I am a little lost as to how to obtain the Sales Potential figures for the Disco records.
As I was not born at the time I am puzzled as to how to rate a record's Sales potential?
Here in Iceland we did not have Top40 Disco charts for half of the year because of the sun-less six months.
(The market research bureau was using solar powered Computers back then)
Can any of you guys who were around 'Back in the Day' help out please ?
How did you rate the sales potential of a record ?
Perhaps SFBeary, MarkyDefad, Discomix, Paul, etc.. can help me out, or even Bernie himself ?
Also Quinny - can you give us a few pointers as to how the Brits rated their Disco in terms of sales potential ?
I understand from an english penpal I had that the British only played Disco for school children and at weddings, as most of the gay patrons were at sea ?
I would appreciate some help here.........
Thanks
ChrisMasampa
Iceland
Acetate [Level 1]
Not offended at all, disco-disk. Like I said, I came across the book recently, and thought it would be worth mentioning since it didn't seem to be the kind of book (with its heavy academic tone) that would be widely read.
I think Jussi was maybe a little harsh, but that could be my fault for maybe not getting the tone of the article across properly.
I know very little about Simon Frith. In fact, I'd never heard of him before reading this book chapter. However, I think he has a quote on the back of the "Love Saves The Day" book, which I have upstairs on the shelf but can't be bothered to go and examine at the moment (I have yours as well, Jussi!) so I guess he can't be a nonentity.
If you read the entire article he certainly comes across as a disco lover.
Of course the best disco song ever is Cocomotion. Or maybe the Sphinx Simon Peter/Judas Iscariot combo. I can't decide at the moment...
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
sfbeary: I'm not saying that there is no point in writing about such things. I often look over "best of" lists simply because I can learn about music I didn't know about before. What I am opposed to is the determination of "best", which is something that cannot be determined in any meaningful way.
Of course, right now it's only one person's opinion. The problem is that, over time, some of these opinions become accepted as facts (like how "Stairway To Heaven" is the best song ever written -- ugh!), especially if they are supported by "evidence" (e.g. it is at the ideal tempo, the ideal key, uses less than 6 notes for the main melody, etc.). If there's one thing I've learned, it is that while you can try to come up with some sort of scientific-looking criteria as to why you like something, there's no real sense in doing so, because those criteria are like fashion itself: constantly shifting and only meaningful in a momentary and relative way.
How much we enjoy a work of art has as much to do with who we are at the time that we experience it as it does the work itself.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
History is made at night: In Defence of Disco - Richard Dyer
Richard Dryer's "In Defence of Disco" - now there's an intelligent, in-the-know dissection. Have a look. It's not anally academic and the writer actually seems to appreciate the music as opposed to many who think only funk/soul-based tracks of the early eighties are worth the title. The article has a gay viewpoint but it's quite adaptable.
Still, lists and academic posturing are fun, or what? :-)
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Thanks for sharing this article...what an overwhelmingly interesting read!
As someone who craves simplicity and, at times, a need for quiet retreats, I have often struggled with my love for a music that is everything but. What is it with disco music and the environment from which it derives that pacifies my soul? Like Dyer, rock and roll just never appealed to me despite it being the "music of the people" and its promise of earthiness...something that disco certainly didn't seduce us into thinking.
Interestingly enough, the article, written in '79, seems to make the distinction that the majority of gay men were drawn to it. Since then, it's becoming widely realized that disco wasn't the obvious choice of many gay men so there is likely still much more to be learned from this musical art....but wow, this is a thoughtfully-written piece that I'm looking forward to taking more time to consume.
Dancin' helps relieve the pain, soothes your mind, makes you happy again
DiscoMusic.com Owner / Administrator
Excellent observation and one that I can appreciate. Thanks and BTW, happy belated birthday.
Bernie (Bernard Lopez)
Owner/publisher of DiscoMusic.com - on the web since 1996.
DiscoMusic.com on Facebook and MySpace
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
No no, of course it's D.I.S.C.O. by Ottowan!(only kidding folks
)
...ya gotta beat the street......
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