Sisley Ferre-Formula_hot, CD-R Beware!

[Andy Farley]

Quinny, I'm happy to have the Sisley tracks on cd as to get hold of them in this format is near on impossible as I stated previously. They were only ever available on a limited press cd from around 1989 when it was still a new format so finding a copy is pretty rare, and you'd pay a lot more than $24 for a copy of it.

I don't feel Erik has misled anyone, as he states they are a limited edition direct from Hotsound Studios which these are, and as Fabba points out finding tracks like these on fully pressed cds is near on impossible.

My point to Invisible Man is that if you're not happy with a purchase you've made go back to the person you bought it off and try and make an amicable settlement which I'm sure Erik would have done. Don't go on a public forum slating the person who actually made the music you are buying off them calling them names like 'dirtbag' 'thief' 'liar' etc etc. Totally uncalled for.

[QUINNY]

Quinny - The CDR that Hot Sound Records provided me is a higher grade CDR that is used by professional recording studios and has a longer shelf life than a store bought variety. One could also make back-up copies of the CDR using higher grade store bought brands. The sound on this CDR is better than a factory pressed one and approaches a "direct to disc" sound quality.

Ken: I don't want to unduly alarm you, BUT there is very little difference between 'professional' CD-R and shop bought, especially if the CD-R you have is an 80 minute, or heaven forbid, 90 minute one.

One of the reasons I packed up being a sound recording engineer was my inability to trust CD-R as a long-term media and the knowledge that CD-R duplication was always going to be a price driven industry with relative inexperienced operators winning a lot of the business merely on price and lots of promises. I could see that I wouldn't be able to compete with that and to be honest I didn't want to.

To be fair, the quality of CD-R has improved over the years BUT be sure on one thing....CD-Rs are produced by people who merely want the cheapest deal for their product, NOT quality. I, for one, cannot take such people seriously.

[fabbathanabba]

To be fair, the quality of CD-R has improved over the years BUT be sure on one thing....CD-Rs are produced by people who merely want the cheapest deal for their product, NOT quality. I, for one, cannot take such people seriously.

To a degree I can understand your point, but with mp3's and downloads affecting music sales and also the cost of licencing tracks and the cost of pressing c.d's (that may not be expected to sell in vast amounts), I personally think that small record labels may only be able to survive by using the cheaper CD-Rs
Perhaps these people have no intention of ripping people off and just want to find the most cost effective way of getting this music back out.
and if this is the case then rather the cheap alternative than nothing at all

[BrunoRepublic]

Much like pressing vinyl, it only makes sense to have aluminum CDs pressed if you're going to be selling at least a couple hundred copies. Otherwise you're looking at a cost of $50 per CD or more, which at that price would mean that they wouldn't get pressed at all.

While I of course prefer aluminum discs to CDRs, I'd much rather have a CDR with decent sound quality than a pretty aluminum disc made from a piss-poor needle drop... and I have quite a few of those.

[KEN]

Quinny - The next question is how long will the average CDR last? One could always copy CDRs to a computer hard drive. What about transfering a CDR to a multi layered DVD? Perhaps a new technology will be discovered in the coming years which will prolong the life of music indefinitely. I guess the bottom line is to enjoy the music while it lasts.

[QUINNY]

Much like pressing vinyl, it only makes sense to have aluminum CDs pressed if you're going to be selling at least a couple hundred copies. Otherwise you're looking at a cost of $50 per CD or more, which at that price would mean that they wouldn't get pressed at all.

Graham, I don't know what you're basing your figures on, but it's possible to get 1000 CDs pressed, with 4 page litho printed booklet and inlay card and colour CD label for approx $1500 (or less). The only downside is that copyright fees would have to be paid upfront on the whole 1000 less maybe 20% allowed as demos. Even so, almost anyone could finance it with plastic and possibly get 6 months or so interest free. 100 copies @ $24 and you'd be home and dry, with every subsequent CD sale being pure profit.

Wonder if any copyright is paid by the small record companies on CD-R copies?

[fabbathanabba]

I guess the bottom line is to enjoy the music while it lasts.

Well said Ken! and lets all be thankful for people like Formula_hot who help it last that bit longer :icon_biggrin:

[Mike C]

I also bought the Sisley Ferre CDs from Formula_hot on Ebay, some months back.

I could hardly believe my luck in finding all those tracks and mixes on CD, and all that mattered to me was having the music from the Masters.

I'd have paid twice that amount, and was very happy to pay what I did. It was obvious to me that they were going to be CD-Rs, simply because of the limited number he said were being produced. Although I understand that it might not be so obvious to other people.

Regarding the royalties, as all the Sisley Ferre songs were written inhouse by him and Michiel V D Kuy, and published by him, he shouldn't have any royalties to pay out.

For such a small label, with such a limited audience, it's easily the best way for him to sell the music. Concidering none of the music would have been written of produced without him, Erik is totally justified in continuing to make what he can from his back catalogue by making the music available.
In my opinion it's worth a lot more than what he's charging.

It's on CD-R... so what? It could be on a jam jar lid, as far as I'm concerned, as long as the music can be digitally copied from it.

For me, I concider it to be probably the best music purchase I've made this year.

Mike

[InvisibleMan]

I also bought the Sisley Ferre CDs from Formula_hot on Ebay, some months back.

I could hardly believe my luck in finding all those tracks and mixes on CD, and all that mattered to me was having the music from the Masters.


For such a small label, with such a limited audience, it's easily the best way for him to sell the music. Concidering none of the music would have been written of produced without him, Erik is totally justified in continuing to make what he can from his back catalogue by making the music available.
In my opinion it's worth a lot more than what he's charging.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 90% of those songs were already released on CD in late 80's and early 90's on Factory pressed Hotsound cd. It's not like it was never released in CD format. So why not just find someone who has that, and ask them to rip a CD-R for you? Why pay $25 for another CD-R? Is his autograph really worth that much to you?
By the way, has anyone even compared the sound of this new "re-issue" to the original "Hotsound" CD of late 80's?

"Limited Audience" Do you live in 1987? What do you mean by that? All you have to do is label something "Italo, Eurodisco, or Hi-nrg" and you will be able to sell a lot of it on ebay. It's not such a limited market anymore with internet.

Another point: Even bootlegers today in Asia and Eastern Europe print stuff on regular CD's, and make it look real nice. And here we have an Official release printed on CD-R. How much sense does that make?

[fabbathanabba]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 90% of those songs were already released on CD in late 80's and early 90's on Factory pressed Hotsound cd. It's not like it was never released in CD format. So why not just find someone who has that, and ask them to rip a CD-R for you? Why pay $25 for another CD-R? Is his autograph really worth that much to you?
By the way, has anyone even compared the sound of this new "re-issue" to the original "Hotsound" CD of late 80's?

"Limited Audience" Do you live in 1987? What do you mean by that? All you have to do is label something "Italo, Eurodisco, or Hi-nrg" and you will be able to sell a lot of it on ebay. It's not such a limited market anymore with internet.

Another point: Even bootlegers today in Asia and Eastern Europe print stuff on regular CD's, and make it look real nice. And here we have an Official release printed on CD-R. How much sense does that make?

The first point you make has been mentioned before.. the C.D. that was released back in 1989 was very limited and is virtually impossible to get hold of nowadays.
I also think that you may underestimate Erik's success and popularity as well as his contribution to this style of music. (See link below)

1983-1986

Also we may have more opportunities these days to sell and promote music but the facts are simple, this genre of music does only appeal to a limited audience and for that reason I can understand why its on a CD-R.
As Mike pointed out this music would not exist without Erik so he has every right to do as he chooses with it, and again I have to say IMO we should be greatful for people like Formula_Hot for making this music available.

[InvisibleMan]

The first point you make has been mentioned before.. the C.D. that was released back in 1989 was very limited and is virtually impossible to get hold of nowadays.

Yeah, to buy original is hard and expensive, BUT by just googling I can find a person who has it, and I am sure he or she wouldn't mind burning me a copy. So I can get the same CD-R with CD quality. And when I go on ebay and spend $25 I expect factory pressed cd's.... just call me crazy like that


No I don't underestimate Erik's success and popularity.
But it does seem that you underestimate popularity of Italo and Eurodisco. And you underestimate such things as 80's forums and message boards as promotional tools.

And here is my question, how much do you think it costs to make a 1 CD-R and put a home-made label on it with home-made insert? $20????? :icon_confused:

[fabbathanabba]

Yes I am aware of the accessability of Italo and Hi-nrg information and products these days due to the internet and I don't think that I am underestimating the demand.

Yes it is easier to track down some stuff but someone has to make this material available and like I said before should'nt these people be allowed to charge what they believe it to be worth??:icon_confused:
other members of this forum who bought this C.D.-R have said they were happy with the quality and the price....... does this not reflect on its value and worth?
I think the actual cost of a CD-R is irrelivant, the fact that this person took time to make it available is what is important.
and yes I can understand you are unhappy that you recieved a CD-R..as you say someone would possible burn one from the original C.D. for you....... the result being the same a CD-R ! :icon_eek:

[Mike C]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 90% of those songs were already released on CD in late 80's and early 90's on Factory pressed Hotsound cd. It's not like it was never released in CD format. So why not just find someone who has that, and ask them to rip a CD-R for you? Why pay $25 for another CD-R?

I like to think that I have a certain amount of self-respect and integrity that I wouldn't surf the internet looking to beg strangers to illegally copy music for me, especially when I know I can buy it legitimately.

As has been mentioned, Almighty records issue their CD singles on CD-R, and sell them through their website. It occurs to me that even though a large number of Almighty fans know each other from the Almighty forum and myspace, they all (from what I can tell) buy the CD-Rs, full price, from Almighty.
Almighty also frequently issue a bonus CD-R album with their new album releases, and very many of the fans buy them, even though they know that other people they know are buying them.

From what you say here, you are recommending fans of Almighty Records do not buy from Almighty, but copy the CD-R singles and bonus albums from others they know who use the Almighty forum.

If you aren't suggesting this, then your suggestion about finding someone to make you an illegal CD-R of the Sisley Ferre album doesn't hold water.
Either buy the CD-R from the legitimate owner of the music (Formula_hot or Almighty) at whatever price they choose to charge, or get someone to break the law for you, and basically "steal" the music.

You are suggesting the latter.

"Limited Audience" Do you live in 1987? What do you mean by that? All you have to do is label something "Italo, Eurodisco, or Hi-nrg" and you will be able to sell a lot of it on ebay. It's not such a limited market anymore with internet.

The audience for 20 year old Hi-NRG is indeed a great deal smaller than it was 20 years ago.

Another point: Even bootlegers today in Asia and Eastern Europe print stuff on regular CD's, and make it look real nice. And here we have an Official release printed on CD-R. How much sense does that make?

Asia/Eastern Europe making a great deal of money copying hundreds of different albums. Of course it makes sense to serious criminals to invest in expensive duplicating equipment.

One individual wanting to sell 100 CDs on Ebay?
Not sensible to buy serious duplicating equipment, or even pay a pressing plant.
Otherwise, Almighty Records would be selling regular CD singles instead of CD-Rs.

[InvisibleMan]

Either buy the CD-R from the legitimate owner of the music (Formula_hot or Almighty) at whatever price they choose to charge, or get someone to break the law for you, and basically "steal" the music.

Asia/Eastern Europe making a great deal of money copying hundreds of different albums. Of course it makes sense to serious criminals to invest in expensive duplicating equipment.

One individual wanting to sell 100 CDs on Ebay?
Not sensible to buy serious duplicating equipment, or even pay a pressing plant.
Otherwise, Almighty Records would be selling regular CD singles instead of CD-Rs.

Oh you are so honorable about this "stealing music issue". Please spare me the guilt!
You're forgetting who you're talking to. I was the one who paid $24 to leagally buy my music based on an ebay auction that mentioned nothing about CD-R. And at $24 price tag, idea that it was a CD-R did not even cross my mind.

And yeah I will break the law instead of paying $24 for a CD-R. Had it been $5 or $10 I wouldn't mind, but $24 for a cheap CD-R with cheap label, there is NO WAY. Plus at least knowing that it was a CD-R would have been a good start.

When sellers charge such high prices for such low quality product, they deserve to lose customers to pirates and illegal downloading, and I hope they do.

And I do own CD-R's from Hot Productions, but I paid only about $10 for those, so it's no big deal.

[fabbathanabba]

You say that you would happily buy a pirate C.D. to save a few dollars......
and you come on a public forum and say Formula_hot ripped you off????

If we all took that attitude what would happen to all of those legitimate sellers (who in my opinion and experiences do it for the love of the music and not to make a fast buck)

[InvisibleMan]

You say that you would happily buy a pirate C.D. to save a few dollars......

You're putting words in my mouth mister,

I would buy Facotry Pressed Official CD instead of a pirate in ALL cases (assuming price was reasonable of course). That's what I thought I was buying from Hotsound when I paid him money. If I knew it was a CD-R I would have never paid that much money for it.

When it's a home-made CD-R for $24, I think I would settle with a pirate in this case, OR most likely I would just ask someone who has it to burn me the SAME CD-R copy for less. CD-R from Hotsound would be the same as CD-R from anybody else, if he thinks he wants to save money by pressing and selling CD-R's at $24 a pop, well I want to save money too, so we both end up with cheap CD-R, and no value or quality is added

What pissed me off even more is that my original offer was $22, but Hotsound laughed at me and said that the best he could do was $24, saying something about the current low value of a dollar..... If I knew back than that it was a CD-R I would have told him to go "F" himself, and would have never purchased it from him at all

[InvisibleMan]

If we all took that attitude what would happen to all of those legitimate sellers (who in my opinion and experiences do it for the love of the music and not to make a fast buck)

if he did it as you say "for the love of music" he would not be selling CD-R's for $20, but for $5 or $10. Trust me, he is doing this to make a quick profit, which he's definitely making because to print a home-made CD-R is very cheap.

by the way just by looking at past auctions, some of those sold for close to $50. People difinitely have too much money to be spending that much on CD-R's

[fabbathanabba]

if he did it as you say "for the love of music" he would not be selling CD-R's for $20, but for $5 or $10. Trust me, he is doing this to make a quick profit, which he's definitely making because to print a home-made CD-R is very cheap.

by the way just by looking at past auctions, some of those sold for close to $50. People difinitely have too much money to be spending that much on CD-R's

Sometimes it's not about what it costs it's about how much you want it!
I guess the bottom line is................











"You can't please all of the people all of the time" :icon_rolleyes::icon_cry::icon_rolleyes:

[Mike C]

Oh you are so honorable about this "stealing music issue". Please spare me the guilt!
You're forgetting who you're talking to. I was the one who paid $24 to leagally buy my music based on an ebay auction that mentioned nothing about CD-R. And at $24 price tag, idea that it was a CD-R did not even cross my mind.

And yeah I will break the law instead of paying $24 for a CD-R. Had it been $5 or $10 I wouldn't mind, but $24 for a cheap CD-R with cheap label, there is NO WAY. Plus at least knowing that it was a CD-R would have been a good start.

When sellers charge such high prices for such low quality product, they deserve to lose customers to pirates and illegal downloading, and I hope they do.

And I do own CD-R's from Hot Productions, but I paid only about $10 for those, so it's no big deal.

For others here who bought the same CD-R from Formula_hot, it's getting the good quality digital version of the music that matters to us much more than the package it came in. Those who've commented have been more than happy about paying that much for what we got.

Since your problem is paying that much for a CD-R, your best solution might be to resell it on Ebay, which you can do because it's a legitimate CD-R product, and not a bootleg.
You can get a chunk of your money back, and you'll still have a copy of the music you wanted.

You can then move on, Formula_hot will have got more sales from your thread here, and everyone will be happy.

Good luck.

[Burado]

Since your problem is paying that much for a CD-R, your best solution might be to resell it on Ebay, which you can do because it's a legitimate CD-R product, and not a bootleg.

I seriously doubt that, 'cause here is what eBay rules say about selling recordable media:

"Only copyright owners, or the copyright owners’ licensees, are permitted to list their products copied onto recordable media (such as VHS tapes, Audio tapes, CD-Rs and DVD-Rs) on eBay. Sellers listing any type of recordable media must state their copyright ownership or license to resell these items in their listings and be able to prove it to eBay.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

• Listing cancellation
• Limits on account privileges
• Account suspension
• Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
• Loss of PowerSeller status "

I wonder how can you prove that you're selling "legitimate CD-R product, and not a bootleg"?