Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
*****
What I 'm wondering is , how fierce was the competition between the two ? Were they arch enemies .... two fiercely competing recording camps .... or something much more congenial ??
One thing curious : a general review suggests to me that Motown did not do covers of Philadelphia International songs ... the one big exception being Thelma Houston's remake of DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY .
I can't think of others .... disco experts ... what say you??
And conversely, what Motown songs if any, did Philadelphia International take and redo into their style ?
:icon_question:
*****
Last edited by remicks; September 11th, 2007 at 10:35 PM.
Baby, take me
high upon a hillside
high up where the stallion
meets the sun
Chart Hit [Level 6]
There wasn't much in common between the 2 labels. Motown had more established artists and often dabbled in funk like early Commodores, Dazz Band, Rick James, ect. PIR had a softer edge and almost always used strings.
What was a competition was PIR vs. Salsoul with Vince Montana exploring new frontiers who couldn't with his former boss!!
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
Well ...... Motown was no stranger to strings ....Originally Written by eddie
There wasn't much in common between the 2 labels. Motown had more established artists and often dabbled in funk like early Commodores, Dazz Band, Rick James, ect. PIR had a softer edge and almost always used strings.
What was a competition was PIR vs. Salsoul with Vince Montana exploring new frontiers who couldn't with his former boss!!
I agree though .. .... there's something amiss in the Philadephia Int. "disco" story .... some reason that they let all that Salsoul music slip thru their fingers .....
And do you agree Eddie about DLMTW .... or can you come up with any other tunes shared between Motown and PIR ???
******
Last edited by remicks; September 12th, 2007 at 12:40 AM.
Baby, take me
high upon a hillside
high up where the stallion
meets the sun
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
I thought that many PIR artists were well-established acts who'd done stuff in the 60s such as the O'Jays & the 3 Degrees?
...ya gotta beat the street......
Platinum Record [Level 8]
I imagine the competition was fierce amongst all of the disco-based labels. By the early 70s, PIR had taken up the dancefloor moniker. Anything Philly was considered gold, and the people at Motown probably knew this, which is why there were a few Motown projects commissioned through Philadelphia's Sigma Sound Studios people. The best examples are the two Eddie Kendricks LPs Going Up In Smoke and He's A Friend. Carl Bean's I Was Born This was also a Philly production.
PIR was based on the East Coast and Motown was based on the West Coast in the early 70s, so I don't know if that was a factor in what markets they focused on or competed in.
Disco Funk
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
You're right on this DF, thanks for reminding me .... I had thought there was some connection between the two along the way ..... you're right, Motown did use PIR for some projects ... but never the other way around .
Do you suppose that it was the Jackson Five acquisition by PIR that began a cause for conflict ?? Seems as though after that there was a great divide .... nothing done between the two again ....
I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???
The Gamble and Huff group never did any versions of Motown songs ????
I'm starting to wonder some about this so called "brotherly love" emulating from the city of ......:icon_confused:
*****
Last edited by remicks; September 14th, 2007 at 12:46 AM.
Baby, take me
high upon a hillside
high up where the stallion
meets the sun
No Longer Charting
Ex PIR artist Jean Carne covered 'If You Don't Know Me By Now' for Motown.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Maybe they didn't do any covers of Motown tracks because they didn't want to pay royalties to non-PIR people? I don't recall too many (if any) of the PIR tracks being covers or songs by non-Philly songwriters. They were usually written by Gamble-Huff, McFadden-Whitehead, Wansel, Sigler, T Bell, etc... I guess the exception would be the Philadelphia Freedom LP which contained covers in the form of the title track and War's 'Smile Happy'.You're right on this DF, thanks for reminding me .... I had thought there was some connection between the two along the way ..... you're right, Motown did use PIR for some projects ... but never the other way around .
Do you suppose that it was the Jackson Five acquisition by PIR that began a cause for conflict ?? Seems as though after that there was a great divide .... nothing done between the two again ....
I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???
The Gamble and Huff group never did any versions of Motown songs ????
I'm starting to wonder some about this so called "brotherly love" emulating from the city of ......:icon_confused:
*****
I think Barry Gordy had a similar philosophy with Motown records produced in LA. Most songs were written by Motown people. Not too many covers of non-Motown written songs.
I guess Don't Leave Me This Way was the only crossover.
Disco Funk
Chart Hit [Level 6]
I can't think of any Motown track that PIR covered. I think Gamble and Huff wanted to be more progressive in style and didn't want any "Uptown medleys" on PIR records like on Shalamar's debut.
Indie Release [Level 4]
I didn't know Gamble and Huff are still at it untill a couple weeks ago. They have a store here in Philly, with a studio upstairs, where they were recording at the time. Yeah, I had to buy the offical Philly International shirt. They have the original Sigma mixing desk in there...you know I had to touch it!!! It's also possible to get private tours of the original Sigma studios in a group...we need a group.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Wow, they actually have the original mixing console? What about the echo chamber, same Sigma echo chamber? I doubt it. I read a book on the Philly sound, and they had a huge echo chamber built into that studio.
Yeah, let's form the "Disco Music Philly Philanderers". I'll play drums, a la Earl Young. :)
Disco Funk
Indie Release [Level 4]
They have a new store on south Broad with a studio upstairs. The original mixing desk is in the store. All that TSOP and Salsoul mixed on it..oh jeez. They imply that the orignal 13th St. studio (where the echo chamber would be) is still intact , which makes no sence, but who am I to question TSOP??
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Is the original building with the original studio still intact? I doubt with today's electronics they would have needed to keep the original echo chamber. I would have thought they would have torn it down and redesigned to have stuff in the space where the echo chamber was located.
Did you find out what artists still record in there? Vince Montana recorded a number of tracks in the last few years with his own Philly orchestra. I wonder if he did it there? Or is there bad blood between Montana and Gamble & Huff?
Disco Funk
Indie Release [Level 4]
Theres the "OG" studio which I know nothing about, thats supposed to be there still at least in shell form, the original Sigma on north 13th, and theres the new "Gamble and Huff" studios on south Broad. Different things. From thier new output I that can see, get the old stuff...
No Longer Charting
Remicks, I'm still curious why you think there was "cause for conflict" between Motown and Gamble & Huff?You're right on this DF, thanks for reminding me .... I had thought there was some connection between the two along the way ..... you're right, Motown did use PIR for some projects ... but never the other way around .
Do you suppose that it was the Jackson Five acquisition by PIR that began a cause for conflict ?? Seems as though after that there was a great divide .... nothing done between the two again ....
I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???
The Gamble and Huff group never did any versions of Motown songs ????
I'm starting to wonder some about this so called "brotherly love" emulating from the city of ......:icon_confused:
*****
You jumped to this conclusion in you first post and are now stating it as though it was a fact. Your evidence is that one successful 70's recording company didn't record another successful recording companies songs and didn't use another for production! Does this really translate into conflict or just good business practice ???
Gamble and Huff had an amazing roster of song writers including themselves to use...why would they NEED to record songs from another publishing company when they could record their own brilliant ones? They had been in the business of writing songs, running their own labels and producing hit records long enough to know exactly what they were doing...and clearly did as they were very successful in the 70's !
Gamble & Huff had their own set up and certainly didn't need Motown or Jobete songs or there production teams, simple as that !
Platinum Record [Level 8]
I kept forgetting to reply to this thread after remember a number of Philly covers of Motown tunes months ago.
Electric Indian (early incarnation of MFSB) on Marmaduke - My Cherie Amour, on the Keemosabe LP from '69 (produced by Len Barry).
Sister Sledge on Atlantic or Atco - Neither One Of Us (produced by The Young Professionals, I think)
The Persuaders on ATCO - Best Thing That Ever Happened To Me (produced by either Thom Bell or the Young Professionals), it was not only a song on the LP, but it was also the title of the LP!
Love Committee on Golden Fleece - Darling Come Back Home (cover of an Eddie Kenricks recording)
None of them produced by Gamble & Huff, although I'm not 100% sure with the Golden Fleece material (I thought that PIR subsidiary's material was produced by The Trammps or B-H-Y).
Disco Funk
Gold Record [Level 7]
o.k remicks what about a motown song sung by an ex motown act released on philadelphia international records....*****
One thing curious : a general review suggests to me that Motown did not do covers of Philadelphia International songs ... the one big exception being Thelma Houston's remake of DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY .
I can't think of others .... disco experts ... what say you??
Underground Hit [Level 5]
the Philadelphia International company did indeed cover several songs from outside of their stable of writers...I own an MFSB album that contains a cover of Porgy and Bess' "Summertime" and a Teddy Pendergrass album that has Barry Manilow's "This One's for You" as its title track. And Pendergrass has covered several songs from former Motown writers Ashford and Simpson.
And Diana Ross and Stevie Wonder did a duet version of Kenny Gamble's "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" on "Motown at the Hollywood Palace" (probably out of print) and Diana Ross, the Supremes and the Temptations also covered "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" on their duet album. It's frequently difficult to tell which record companies have covered which songs unless you own a large amount of their releases.....
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
got me DD !! ..... who? what ??? :icon_confused:.....o.k remicks what about a motown song sung by an ex motown act released on philadelphia international records....
_______________
When looking back and observing that there were these two huge black oriented powerhouses overlapping in the seventies ....one well established and therefore deserving of respect from the other ....the other rising fast and therefore equally deserving respect from the other .... it would be hard to imagine they were working their camps without any regard about the other. It seems to me that Berry Gordy would have been particularly fascinated by this new and so quickly successful competition.
Somehow they got together to do that Eddie Kendricks project ... so that alone is testament for the possibilities that existed between the two. It would be most interesting to learn the inside story of how and why that album came to be ..... Had it done better that might have affected things between the two more so .
But especially after the giant success of DON'T LEAVE ME THIS WAY ... it would have seemed like in both camps ... certain bell$ and whistle$ would have gone off .
It was not unheard of for Motown to reach out beyond themselves and to be exploratory ... For instance
The Supremes Sing Rogers And Hart .
What if they had taken their mid seventies roster ...Supremes , Temptations, Originals, Dynamic Superiors ..etc .... and assigned them each a Philly song and released an album called
Motown Goes Philly ..... :icon_cool: :icon_biggrin: :icon_cool:
-- And, if the Salsoul Orchestra had time for :
How terrific it might have been had they gone into the studio and put their Philly style to a select group of Motown songs ....TEARS OF A CLOWN .... BALL OF CONFUSION ... I WISH .... I WANT YOU BACK ...etc . .. (let your imagination run wild concerning this) .....
Just one of those things thats fun to reflect on from the era and ponder "what if " .....
*****
Baby, take me
high upon a hillside
high up where the stallion
meets the sun
Gold Record [Level 7]
cant tell you, well not without at least one small guess:icon_mrgreen:
actually this question is probibly quite tough, im not thinking jerry butler either...
Underground Hit [Level 5]
Motown released entire ALBUMS of songs from outside their stable of writers. Just a few examples: Stevie Wonder's "Tribute to Uncle Ray", The Supremes "A Bit Of Liverpool" and "The Supremes Sing Rodgers and Hart"...The Supremes Sing and Perform "Funny Girl". Marvin Gaye's "Hello Broadway" and "A Tribute to the great Nat King Cole" and that's just a few examples....
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Definitely. When they were still in Detroit, they did tons of cover albums. But I noticed that when they moved to LA, that stopped.
Gamble & Huff wasn't totally against having cover songs by non-Philly writers. One of Billy Paul's earliest big hits was his cover of Elton John's Your Song, and one of the MFSB LPs was even named Philadelphia Freedom (it also contained the song of the same name as written by John). But like any major company, they had a good stable of writers they could pull original songs from, like Motown did. Whether not doing many cover versions of each other's songs was a conscious effort on the part of both PIR and Motown is not clear.
Disco Funk
Underground Hit [Level 5]
I don't know what happened to the answer I posted on this subject recently so I'll post it again: I have 2 recordings of Motown artists covering a Kenny Gamble song: Diana Ross and Stevie Wonder did a live duet version, and Ross, the Supremes and the Temptations did a studio version of the same Kenny Gamble song called "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me."*****
What I 'm wondering is , how fierce was the competition between the two ? Were they arch enemies .... two fiercely competing recording camps .... or something much more congenial ??
One thing curious : a general review suggests to me that Motown did not do covers of Philadelphia International songs ... the one big exception being Thelma Houston's remake of DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY .
I can't think of others .... disco experts ... what say you??
And conversely, what Motown songs if any, did Philadelphia International take and redo into their style ?
:icon_question:
*****
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Got it and surprised I didn't think of it sooner.
Jean Carne at PIR covered the Martha and the Vandellas "Love makes me do foolish things" which was also performed by Kim Weston and Diana Ross and the Supremes.
Underground Hit [Level 5]
did you know that Gamble and Huff offered Daryl Hall and John Oates positions as staff writers at PIR? Hall and Oates turned them down, saying they didn't want to be "part of someone else's sound".
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