On seeing "Sicko"

[Nano]

I have to say the picture Michael Moore does about public hospitals sounds a bit too positive here (but of course, Buenos Aires does not have the best budget for that). However, his view on the U.S. sanity system looks pretty scary. In the last decade, there was a rush of new private firms doing pre-pay healthcare down here, on the basic premise that we were imitating the U.S. policy on the matter (we tend to see "how they do it" as the rule). But people have very similar complains to those I saw in this documentary... The difference being that we still have a big net of public hospitals for those who can't pay their healthcare.

Just wanted to hear your opinion...

[DiscoMan]

Michael Moore is primarily a left-wing propagandist and you must keep that in mind when watching any film manufactured by him.

[Videoskooter]

Because I don't know this for sure: if you don't have the finances and you need urgent medical treatment in the US,then who's paying the bill???

Discoman is right on Michael Moore though. It's obvious that sometimes his criticism is justified but he has a hidden political agenda and he's a manipulatortoo.

And I always LMAO when a so called man of the people and semi-communist lives in total luxury but tries to put on a smokescreen by making this kind of movies and dresses in a jeans that obviously hasn't been washed for a decade.

Now, if Paul would make movies like this :icon_lol:

[DiscoMan]

No one in the U.S. is ever denied medical care. US hospitals hand out FREE hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars in free medical care to the indigent, vagrant, poor and un-insured every year. That's one reason why our private medical insurance is so expensive - the insured pay for the un-insured. Hospital emergency rooms all over the USA are packed with the un-insured waiting for care - care that they are not denied - BY LAW. Walk into any hospital emgerncy room and see for yourself. Sure we have have problems that need to be addressed and resolved. Those problems are primarly focused on the outrageous premiums employers here in the USA pay for health insurance for their employees and they are rebelling. U.S. automaker General Motors adds to the price of each vehicle it sells $1500.00 US to pay for the health insurance of it's retirees, for example. Insured people in the USA are hosed for outrageously higher premiums, drugs and medical procedures to pay for those who don't have insurance - afterall there is no such thing as a free lunch. And one more thing...Americans don't go to Canada for medical treatment but Canadians in the tens of thousands come here for ours...

Of course left-wing nit-wits like Michael Moore don't tell you that.

[remicks]

No one in the U.S. is ever denied medical care. US hospitals hand out FREE hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars in free medical care to the indigent, vagrant, poor and un-insured every year. That's one reason why our private medical insurance is so expensive - the insured pay for the un-insured. Hospital emergency rooms all over the USA are packed with the un-insured waiting for care - care that they are not denied - BY LAW. Walk into any hospital emgerncy room and see for yourself. Sure we have have problems that need to be addressed and resolved. Those problems are primarly focused on the outrageous premiums employers here in the USA pay for health insurance for their employees and they are rebelling. U.S. automaker General Motors adds to the price of each vehicle it sells $1500.00 US to pay for the health insurance of it's retirees, for example. Insured people in the USA are hosed for outrageously higher premiums, drugs and medical procedures to pay for those who don't have insurance - afterall there is no such thing as a free lunch.

:icon_confused: Is this defending it ... or pointing out how shitty it is !!!


*****

[DiscoMan]

It's not defending it and it's not shitty. Just shining a little light of truth on Moore's dishonest propagnda.

[Videoskooter]

In Belgium we probably have 1 of the most envied social security systems in the world (Scandinavian countries have something similar).

The system is based on the same principle. If you pay an employee 1 Euro, in fact you pay an additional 1,5 Euro to the state. The employee's Euro is also topped off with a fixed fee.

All that money goes into a kind of fund. That money serves to pay the sick people (wage + medical costs), unemployed and the wages for retired people.

Every Belgian is also obliged to pay a monthly fee to a health insurance fund (the choice is free: catholic, socialist, liberal or non-political). When we buy medication that is proscribed by a doctor, we only pay a percentage of that price + we get a part of the Doctor's fee back, the rest is payed by that health insurance fund.

Of course this is not the case for f.i. plastic surgery except when it is for health reasons.

If a boss fires you, you get 80% of your wage during a year and then 60%.

People who aren't insured at all can go to the city welfare fund which is obliged by law to give you a roof above your head and the means that are necessary to live (money, food, clothes).

Now there's always parasites who don't want to work at all (in Belgium you can be unemployed during your whole life and still get that wage) but in general I and a majority of the Belgians are very satisfied about this system.

[paul]

:icon_confused: Is this defending it ... or pointing out how shitty it is !!!


*****

Well, exactly remicks. All of these Walmart republicans believe in stupid ****. I have grown tired of even arguing with their nonsensical aguments. As you said, is DM trying to defend the current US system with the argument he just made? Many of these people have swallowed the swill of the last 30 years of conservative bullcrap. These arguments only makes sense in a selfish way if you are in the top 1 percent of income earners who don't give a rat's ass about humanity in general. The vast majority of these repubs types however aren't nowhere near that and will stupidly argue that they want a health care system that might bankrupt their asses or if they don't have the money, force doctors to compromise the treatment they get.
Engaging in any sensible debate with the repub zombies is as meaningful as having a discussion with your dog.

[paul]

Johan, since Sicko is driving home a serious point I would probably leave it the way it is. I find it to be Moore's best movie. That said, I would also make the kind of movies with Rosalind Sanchez and Eva Mendes gettin' it on with me :)
Anyway, Moore isn't hiding the fact that he's liberal and that is a good thing. That has been the way I have known him for 20 years.
Of course you know being well off and having compassion for your fellow man is not mutually exclusive. It's just that the recent crop of conservatives once again show the nastiness of being wealthy feudal lords which they prefer to be. These sorts of people have long been a sore spot in humanity.

[DiscoMan]

Bernie, I find Paul's post insulting and offensive. Sanctions are required here. Or does discomusic.com subscribe to the double standard, with sanctions applied to only those who criticize the left?

[Mixmachine]

Bernie, I find Paul's post insulting and offensive. Sanctions are required here. Or does discomusic.com subscribe to the double standard, with sanctions applied to only those who criticize the left?

exactly, apparently if you are a domestic (transplanted leech) anti-American leftist, or a foreign communist from a bankrupt third world country, you’ll have free reigns around this pages to launch verbal insulting attacks on America and it's citizens.

“Double Standards” is putting it mildly.

[markydefad]

I agree whole-heartedly with Paul. It's not worth arguing with these creeps. :icon_mad:

Hopefully, your right-wing neocon ship is sinking in disgrace; unfortunately, Herr Bush has done such damage to this country that it may take decades to repair....get used to being in the bottom-feeder position for several decades....you can always say "I didn't vote for him,...I didn't...I didn't...oh yeah, I did--but he lied to me!!!"

Yeah, right.

[Dayna]

All of these Walmart republicans believe in stupid ****.

ROTF~!!!:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::i con_smile:
I highly recommend it

[markydefad]

When Michael Moore is viewed as an enemy of America because he shines a light on the outrageous current US policy of healthcare for profit..."insure those who don't need it/ deny coverage to those who do---keep the stockholders happy---keep the PROFITS up!!!" ya gotta wonder WTF is wrong with these people who HATE Michael Moore so vehemently? Is it because he's been soooo RIGHT....watch "Farenheit 9/11" again and see if everything he predicted was not dead on accurate.

Since when is "compassion" for the welfare of your fellow man--ANTI-AMERICAN???--except in the minds of raving nutcases???? :icon_rolleyes::icon_redface::icon_question:

Congress should lose those cushy healthcare plans they have....let them pay for their medical expenses out their own damn insurance co/pharmaceutical lobby-lined pockets. If it's good enough for the "people" --it's good enough for the "entitled"---except they have the means to pay, thanks to their lobby-lined pockets. :icon_evil:

Cheers to Michael Moore--an American hero....in a time of so few. Cheers to Russ Feingold too....other than that...there's slim pickins' out there. Such a sad, shameful time....the government is run like the mafia...and the the chief law enforcer is a lying crook. WTF??? :icon_redface:

[Videoskooter]

Congress should lose those cushy healthcare plans they have....let them pay for their medical expenses out their own damn insurance co/pharmaceutical lobby-lined pockets. If it's good enough for the "people" --it's good enough for the "entitled"---except they have the means to pay, thanks to their lobby-lined pockets. :icon_evil:

First: let's all stay calm, we all know that this is the danger zone of the board :icon_lol: All opinions go here, left or right but when we start insulting each other, the topic is ruined and that's a shame coz' Nano started a thread that can be very interesting if it gets rational replies.

Marky, can you explain this to me coz' I haven't seen "Sicko" and I don't know what kind of plans you're talking here. Paul also has touched that.

Discoman, Mixmachine, feel free to reply (in a civilised way of course, same goes for the others too!) why the current US health system is good in your point of view or what should be changed eventually.

Regarding the insults on the American President: feel lucky that you can still do that without getting fined or jailed. That's called democracy. Belgians can not insult the Belgian King or a member of the government without being indicted and we sure ain't no fascist country. If a Venezuelan or Cuban insults his head of state (the heroes of a dear member here) he's jailed, period. That's not Democracy, so please let's put it all into the right (or left) perspective.

If you're so keen on using the term "Bush Crime Family", then take 'em to court and prove it! That's Democracy, that's Justice, otherwise be a little restraint.

[Nano]

OMG, I did it again! :icon_redface: It wasnt my intention to touch a "red spot", but apparently I did.

I think Johan summed it up, we can argue here without missiles flying. My point here wasnt to talk about Michael Moore (I think I already know what everyone here thinks about him, for the good and the bad). The idea was to discuss the private healthcare system as it is in the U.S. and now some Third World countries (like mine) try to imitate.

The films basic points, Johan, describe the healthcare private U.S. companies as greedy entrepeneurs doing tricks to reject potentially sick people who wants to subscribe, and try to evade paying costly operations for those who did subscribe. Some things I remember:
1) A doctor who worked for one of these companies stated that he got points out of rejecting orders for medication and medic service, thus saving money for the company;
2) Patients whose orders were rejected by these companies and went into personal bankruptcy in order to pay for their ailments;
3) Indigent people being sacked from private clinics and abandoned at the entrance of public hospitals;
4) The revelation (for me at least) that Hillary Clintons public healthcare projects during Bills first term as President were forgotten as soon as some of these companies became heavy supporters of her campaign.

The filmmaker compares the U.S. system with those of Canada, England and France, and ends taking some rescue heroes of 9-11 (whose medical treatment couldnt be sustained by those companies) to Cuba to be cured in public hospitals.

I guess that last one was a provocation by Mr. Moore, but what really interests me is your opinion about the rest folks. Peace.

(Sorry my apostrophe key isnt working today)

[paul]

Thanks Marky, Dayna :icon_cool:
Johan, people have been arrested here for wearing anti-bush/war clothing.
Rest assured too that if any nation sponsored the overthrow of the current US government the way we have in Venezezuela and Cuba, we would have been at war with them.
As for calling this cabal what they, the bush crime family, it's a fact. They have already admitted to violating laws. We just can't get these spineless democrats to do anything about it.
Johan if you can, see Sicko. It's very informative and entertaining as well.
Marky, I share your despair on the state of politics here in the US.

[paul]

Nano, I'm not sure what you want an opinion on?

[Videoskooter]

For people who want to join in or see what the fuzz is all about:

[Nano]

Nano, I'm not sure what you want an opinion on?

Meaning, is the healthcare system really corrupt like that (my interrogation sign is also absent) and how do you live with it as people in the U.S. Also I would like to hear people in Canada and Britain about the heavenly picture the film does on their public healthcare.

What Im not really interested (because I already know that) is what you think on Michael Moore, Bush, Chavez, Castro, etc. I think the economic side of it is what really matters (because politics go behind the economy).

I dont think the private healthcare companies in the U.S. are a Bush invention (correct me if Im wrong). Seems its been going on like that for decades.

[Videoskooter]

I remember that a few years back the European parliament denied private health insurance companies access to databanks with genetic files on patients.

You know what I mean, you go to a doctor and your medical file goes on hard disk and some tests can be used to predict if you have a fair chance of getting this or that disease in the future. If the companies can have that info they could start charging you a lot more because of the high risk or simply refuse you as a customer.

Is there something similar going on in the US?

(Nano, are you sure you don't want my opinion on Yugo Chavez??? Just asking???)

[Nano]

(Johan: you can always PM me) :icon_smile:

[paul]

The short answer is yes, it is how Moore described it. Moore focused on those with insurance. Since the insurance companies are entirely profit motivated, there are some things the various companies via HMOs wont cover or cover with high deductibles and/or financially capped coverage limits. This sucks. In a country where we can always find money to drop bombs on somebody, we can find money to take care of Americans in a way that not only benefits the citizenry but will ultimately help the business environment.

[paul]

I remember that a few years back the European parliament denied private health insurance companies access to databanks with genetic files on patients.

You know what I mean, you go to a doctor and your medical file goes on hard disk and some tests can be used to predict if you have a fair chance of getting this or that disease in the future. If the companies can have that info they could start charging you a lot more because of the high risk or simply refuse you as a customer.

Is there something similar going on in the US?

(Nano, are you sure you don't want my opinion on Yugo Chavez??? Just asking???)

Yes. In Sicko and you can look this up, the companies deny or charge high premiums for certain condition. Obviously, they would have to draw from a database on one's particular health history to make a determination.

[Mixmachine]

Since when is "compassion" for the welfare of your fellow man--ANTI-AMERICAN???--except in the minds of raving nutcases???? :icon_rolleyes::icon_redface::icon_question:

C

The only raving nutcases around here are those that blindly followed the opinions of Foreign socialists working hard to introduce ANTI-AMERICAN and failed socialist/Communist ideas in this country, the problem is that the likes of you, that have never ever known *real* necessities of life since you have always enjoyed the privileges and abundance of this country, get your brainwashing info from the likes of Michael Moore and his propaganda movies.

Today this leftist hides behind the “Basic Human need” banner to sell you ‘universal health care” for all , tomorrow free meals, later why not free housing for all, followed by free higher education, and so on and on, all at government expense, pretty soon if we allowed the likes of Moore to have their way soon will be wasting away under a bankrupt, corrupt socialist system and drowning in backbreaking taxes.

Michael Moore goes around finding the worse in American society and ignores all the rest, he then re-packages and sells this poisonous bundle to the masses of the world, if you don’t think this is ANTI_AMERICAN propaganda, rush to your primary doctor's office to have your head examined by a specialist .

In America if you have a job, -- and under BUSH there is almost no unemployment what so ever-- you can afford health care and/or private insurance, many people that don't have insurance drive around expensive SUV and own Plasma screens, why should I or any American taxpayer pay for his stupidity?? (and we do pay anyways)