Promo copies

[Simon White]

In the world of Northern Soul collecting, Promotion, Demo or Radio Station copies of 45's are often (but not always) most desirable, mainly due to their (sometimes percieved) relative scarcity compared to the commercially available copies.

How does this compare to Disco 12" collecting? Is it the case that as promotional Disco 12" were more likely to be serviced straight to DJ's and clubs rather than Radio Stations, that means that the commercial copies, a lot of which didn't sell, have been trashed since, wereas the promo copies are likely to have been preserved in DJ collections, or to have changed hands in different collection?

[KEN]

Promotional 12" copies of disco records were mailed or hand delivered to clubs, record pools, radio stations and commercial record stores back in the 1970's and 1980's. Record pools supplied DJs and clubs with 100's of promos every week. Depending upon who paid the record pool generally dictated who had rightful ownership of those promo copies.

It was not uncommon for many record stores to also sell promo 12" copies in addition to commercial records. Any records that didn't sell, both commercial and promos, were offered at very cheap prices to the general public to reduce their stock. If they were completely unable to sell the commercial singles, the record stores could return some of them back to the record companies for a store credit.

If I had to guess who now owns most 12" records, both commercial and promos, it would be the general public. Many DJs have transferred their records to computer files and have sold their vinyl copies at market. Many radio stations have also sold their 12" promo records to the general public or have placed them in permanent storage. When clubs closed down, many would sell their records to other clubs or the general public.

The demand for 12" records was not that great as compared to total record sales. Unless you went to clubs on a regular basis, you probably didn't hear many great dance records being played on the radio. Therefore, the number of commercial 12" records released was quite small in comparison to popular LPs.

Regarding the current market value of 12" promo and commercial records, it is relatively inexpensive to buy most disco 12" singles in today's market. Most people today don't even own a record player and have no desire to buy vinyl records. Very rare 12" singles, however, can fetch a high market price due to the fact that there are still many singles which have not made their way to CD. In addition to Ebay, you can also buy many promo and commercial 12" singles on gemm.com and netsounds.com as well as many other websites that specialize in vinyl sales to the public.

[Simon White]

Nice history lesson there Ken!
I'm curious to know as to whether in general, commercial or promo copies are more or less desirable to Disco 12" collectors?
Are there any known examples where the promo copies are more common now than the commercial copies or in fact vice versa ??

[RetroRuss]

Simon, there is definitely a desire amongst 'collectors' to own Promos, 'Limited Editions', as well as Acetates. EBay is a great guide to the monetary value of records and it makes my eyes water when I see the silly prices of certain Disco records sell for!

I can't think of any records where there are more promo copies around compared to regular copies..

[BrunoRepublic]

I can't think of any records where there are more promo copies around compared to regular copies..

Actually, there are quite a few, in cases where the album flopped or was quickly pulled from the shelves for other reasons. The "Lightning" album on Casablanca is one such example. Countless obscure releases on AVI are like that too, where I have seen multiple promos of them but never a commercial copy. Same goes for the Costandinos soundtracks on Casablanca. Every copy I've ever seen was a promo.

[KEN]

Simon,

When I was collecting 12" singles back in the 1970's and 1980's, it didn't matter to me whether the record was a promo or commercial release. I just wanted to own and play the extended versions of dance songs. For me, it was always about the music. There were numerous instances when 12" versions were issued only as promo copies. Sure, some of the color and picture vinyl 12" promos were interesting to look at as they spun around the turntables, but the novelty wore off pretty quickly for me.

Regarding how many promos versus commercial 12" singles are available for sale, my guess is the commercial 12" singles would outnumber the promo copies. However, promo copies are offered for sale quite frequently, including DJ service issues, so most people can fulfill their want lists without a lot of effort.

If I were a true "collector" with the intent to eventually sell an entire collection of 12" singles, I would presume that promos would sell at a slightly higher price than commercial releases, but only very slight at best. Records that were issued as promo only and never released commercially might command a higher price, especially the color and picture vinyl, as well as the LPs that were issued as double 12" promos with one song on each side. Prelude Records was notorious for issuing promos as double sets. Songs issued on obscure labels might also command a higher sale price.

The only problem here is that the "demand" for these records is not that great. If you check some of the prices on Ebay, you'll see that most 12" dance records sell for under $10.00 U.S. (both promo and commercial copies). As stated before, there just aren't many people that own a record player anymore, nor are there a lot of people interested in buying dance music when compared to other music formats available for sale.

I guess the bottom line is whether a collector is more interested in the record itself, or the music. For me, music is what is most important. Always has been, always will be!

[Disco Funk]

When browsing or shopping places like Ebay, I find that if there's a 12" promo version of a record, and a commercial pressing kicking around too, they sell for about the same price. That's true of anything from 77 onwards. And by same price, I mean, it depends on the demand for the track. For example, anything by Bumblebee Unlimited, promo or otherwise, fetches high bucks on the auction sites.

Also, any promo pre-76, usually goes for a higher price because of the rarity of the pressings and the age of the record. Although, I've occasionally been able to grab a 12" from '75 that wasn't crazy expensive.

There are even 7" promos that have unique pressings (i.e. a different mix) from their commercial counterparts, and are thus more valuable. I think Barry White's 'Let The Music Play' is one of them. Dionne Warwick's 'Once You Hit The Road' is probably another one.

This may have been discussed before, but are promo copies of commercially released 12"s pressed better too? I mean, are they on thicker vinyl and have a richer sound than their commercial counterparts, or do they just use the same mastering process?

Disco Funk

[KEN]

I did not notice any difference in sound when comparing promo copies to commercial releases in the U.S. However, U.K., France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Holland pressings of the same recordings were often better sounding and had much higher fidelity. Many of these were at speeds of 45 rpm instead of the standard 33 1 /3 rpm in the U.S.

[Mixmachine]

I would suggest to anyone buying vinyl records today, to try always to get the Promo copy first.

Most of the Promos available come from Djs, collectors and Radio stations or from Industry insiders, for the most part Promo copies will always be in better quality/shape (with few exceptions of course), many un-played or hardly played at all.

Why?

Among the many reasons, often club Djs had an extra copy (spare) to work with, (from the Record pool, promotional events, etc) and mostly used only one copy or if not they split the amount of ‘Play times’ between two copies ( less wear on a particular vinyl/title) also many Promos had the same version on both sides , many Djs (and Radio Jocks) used the same side always (label markings/notes), therefore the flip side will most likely be un-played and in pristine quality today.

Another reason is that Djs took (in general) better care of their records (with some exceptions) they cleaned and handle them properly (for the most part) using (generally) better playback equipment, this is not to say that all Promos are defect free, you may find some Promo Vinyl record with the dreaded ‘DJ burns’, usually found during the intro and more likely on super hit records that saw lots of action for extended time.

On the other hand your average retail buyer usually never took much care of his vinyl, (rarely ever placing them back in the cover for instance) and they handle records badly, grabbing them with dirty fingers transferring acidic sweat and other gluey things that are difficult to remove today after 20 or 30 years.

They also poorly stored the vinyl in the attic or closet corner (some in patio sheds!!!) allowing dust to accumulate , bugs to nest and mildew to grow for years ruining the covers/label at the very least.

If that’s not enough, back in the day your average vinyl user (buying retail copies) more likely than not had a sub-standard, inexpensive setup, (usually all in one system with Radio and TV) with cheap ceramic turntable needles that literally scratched the vinyl surface every time they played the record.



The noise created by this needles (usually worn out) is all but impossible to remove today ( unless with software and the results are not usually great) Your average buyer also stacked up records on Turntables with auto playing feature that further ruined and scratched the vinyl, and even those that spent good money on better systems hardly ever knew (or cared) how to properly set up a Turntable, they usually had excessive weight on misaligned needles causing more damage.(some people used pennies as counter weight):icon_eek:

With retail copies you might get lucky and get a Retail 12” single vinyl from someone that used to buy the 12” to transfer to cassette and never used the vinyl again, but very few people did this (time consuming) because they preferred the freedom to play any song (repeatedly)at any moment, (difficult and time consuming with un-labeled home made cassette)your average buyer usually hauled the vinyl collection to parties (or at home parties) and stacked them up in automatic TTs. Dozens of records were usually just laying around the couch uncovered and handle by dozens of drunken party goers.

Another reason why you see more Promo vinyl today is because most people that bought retail vinyl (in the USA at least) discarded their vinyl long ago, (Vinyl was disposable to many)as they are not really collectors or loved the music (Disco/R&B) to the point that required keeping the vinyl collection all this years.

If anything I noticed the price of hard to get 12” vinyl went up on Ebay, especially Promos, many of the pre ’77 12” singles are selling for crazy money!!!.

[buckaroo]

...The only problem here is that the "demand" for these records is not that great. If you check some of the prices on Ebay, you'll see that most 12" dance records sell for under $10.00 U.S. (both promo and commercial copies). As stated before, there just aren't many people that own a record player anymore, nor are there a lot of people interested in buying dance music when compared to other music formats available for sale.

Is ebay really a good barometer of sales? I don't think it is. There's a lot of stuff on ebay, which doesn't even reach it's reserve - if it has one in the first place. That site is so over saturated, and unfortunately there are people who will pay big bucks for (IMO) very mediocre music. What really has affected the sale of vinyl is technology, and the ages of music buyers today. Youngsters can download their music, dance or otherwise, from P2P sites and legitimate sources, and don't hanker for the smell of vinyl, or reading sleevenotes which I still like to do now and then. :icon_lol: The older generation in their 30s 40s and 50s for example, have stopped buying partly because of the artificially high prices of vinyl imports over the years, and have also baulked at the prices of re-issued music on CD. Recently the site CD Wow lost its court case against the industry (big surprise) and may face having to pay out £48 million in damages because it was selling cheaper but legitimate CDs.

I have bought a few bargain rarities on ebay, at the right time for the right price. But if I was seriously after something rare, I would go looking somewhere out of the ordinary like a car boot sale (a sort of garage sale to American readers.) or even a good old fashioned music fair where I'd have a chance to haggle the seller down. :icon_lol:

[Simon White]

Seem to be a few differening opinions here.

Here's a little instance of what I was asking. In the Northern Soul collecting world some records on the RCA label are more common on promo copies than they are on issue copies depite the fact that more issue copies were pressed than promo copies. Apparently (and don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger !) this is because the promo's sat on the shelves of radio stations and the like for years, stored and unplayed, whereas the issue copies, unsold, went back to the distributors and were then trashed in some way.

Right, now think about the Disco world. A DJ is serviced a promo 12" and either it either works and becomes a useful dancefloor record or he doesn't programme it at, or he plays it a just few times and it doesn't take off. In the last two cases it either goes into storage or he gets rid of it. Disco 12" on issue copies were often pressed in relatively small numbers, especially the earlier ones. So in theory, there maybe more or as many Promo copies of some records around than issue ones...or is it in fact going to be the other way round ??

[KEN]

Simon,

Regarding your question pertaining to the number of copies in circulation of promo versus issued 12" singles, there is no way to know the precise number of either in circulation. If you check out Disco Savvy: Quality Disco Music Albums - dance 1970s 1980s house 80's, you'll see thousands of 12" singles that were released as promos to DJs and radio stations, but not to the general public. However, the UK and other European countries did issue many of these promos as commercial 12" releases in their own country.

It is also impossible to know whether club DJs and radio stations stored their promos, sold them, or simply trashed them. It is possible that more promos were issued than commercial releases and vice versa. Generally speaking, when record companies issued promos to clubs and radio stations, they waited for feedback from the club DJs, and they also waited to see how the promos charted on record pool dance charts, before considering their commercial release. If the promo did not do well in clubs and on the radio, the record companies usually did not issue these promos commercially. Once again, in many instances, these were still issued commercially in the European markets.

Regarding promos that were issued commercially, it depends on how many copies were actually sold. It is possible that some songs sold poorly, so the number of promos definitely outnumbered commercial copies. The opposite could also occur. If the song sold very well, then the number of commercial copies would exceed the number of promos.

In buying a 12" record, those records or promos that were issued in a 45 rpm format usually had superior sound quality when compared to 33 1/3 rpm. The trick is to find a 12" copy in pristine condition. As stated above, if the 12" single was not stored properly, both promo and commercial releases could be of inferior quality. If you get lucky and find a clean copy, there is not much difference in sound quality of commercial versus promo releases, unless one is 45 rpm and the other is 33 1/3 rpm. One other exception to the rule is that some promo copies contained versions of songs otherwise not available commercially. And there are one more set of 12" singles issued that we haven't addressed, namely test pressings. And you thought this was an easy question...:icon_biggrin:

[Simon White]

Hi Ken,
I think you've hit the nail right on the head here. As you say there are so many variables on this one which means that some 12" promo's are going to be rarer than the equivalent issues while others while in other cases the opposite will be true and it will be the issue that is rarer !

Now... the next question is - can we work out which ones ?? :icon_eek:

Simon,

Regarding your question pertaining to the number of copies in circulation of promo versus issued 12" singles, there is no way to know the precise number of either in circulation. If you check out Disco Savvy: Quality Disco Music Albums - dance 1970s 1980s house 80's, you'll see thousands of 12" singles that were released as promos to DJs and radio stations, but not to the general public. However, the UK and other European countries did issue many of these promos as commercial 12" releases in their own country.

It is also impossible to know whether club DJs and radio stations stored their promos, sold them, or simply trashed them. It is possible that more promos were issued than commercial releases and vice versa. Generally speaking, when record companies issued promos to clubs and radio stations, they waited for feedback from the club DJs, and they also waited to see how the promos charted on record pool dance charts, before considering their commercial release. If the promo did not do well in clubs and on the radio, the record companies usually did not issue these promos commercially. Once again, in many instances, these were still issued commercially in the European markets.

Regarding promos that were issued commercially, it depends on how many copies were actually sold. It is possible that some songs sold poorly, so the number of promos definitely outnumbered commercial copies. The opposite could also occur. If the song sold very well, then the number of commercial copies would exceed the number of promos.

In buying a 12" record, those records or promos that were issued in a 45 rpm format usually had superior sound quality when compared to 33 1/3 rpm. The trick is to find a 12" copy in pristine condition. As stated above, if the 12" single was not stored properly, both promo and commercial releases could be of inferior quality. If you get lucky and find a clean copy, there is not much difference in sound quality of commercial versus promo releases, unless one is 45 rpm and the other is 33 1/3 rpm. One other exception to the rule is that some promo copies contained versions of songs otherwise not available commercially. And there are one more set of 12" singles issued that we haven't addressed, namely test pressings. And you thought this was an easy question...:icon_biggrin:

[Simon White]

Is ebay really a good barometer of sales? I don't think it is. There's a lot of stuff on ebay, which doesn't even reach it's reserve - if it has one in the first place. That site is so over saturated, and unfortunately there are people who will pay big bucks for (IMO) very mediocre music. What really has affected the sale of vinyl is technology, and the ages of music buyers today. Youngsters can download their music, dance or otherwise, from P2P sites and legitimate sources, and don't hanker for the smell of vinyl, or reading sleevenotes which I still like to do now and then. :icon_lol: The older generation in their 30s 40s and 50s for example, have stopped buying partly because of the artificially high prices of vinyl imports over the years, and have also baulked at the prices of re-issued music on CD. Recently the site CD Wow lost its court case against the industry (big surprise) and may face having to pay out £48 million in damages because it was selling cheaper but legitimate CDs.

I have bought a few bargain rarities on ebay, at the right time for the right price. But if I was seriously after something rare, I would go looking somewhere out of the ordinary like a car boot sale (a sort of garage sale to American readers.) or even a good old fashioned music fair where I'd have a chance to haggle the seller down. :icon_lol:

Personally I've never been an ebay user to any great extent.. I like to physically look through records, spotting things I don't know that look interesting ect. But from what I can see the prices are easily inflated there and what something goes for can vary greatly. Donna Summmer's 'I Feel Love' remix is a good example...time and time again i hear how desirable it is but it can be bought for a relatively low price.

One thing I will say...there are copies on ebay at the moment of Mass Productions 'Welcome To Our World Of Merry Music' a record I didn't realise existed on 12" but always hoped did !

I want one but...I ain't paying 150 dollars for it !:icon_biggrin:

[RetroRuss]

You're right - Ebay is probably not the best place to buy although it is a reasonable barometer of values of records. Some sellers demand (and get) premium prices, as they are good at marketing and have regular sales and have a good reputation for being reliable.
You can usually get a record you are after significantly cheaper either on Ebay or elsewhere if you are prepared to be patient. I recently got 'Get Your Boom Boom' - Le Pamplemousse 12" for a £1 and I've seen it regularly for £50

[buckaroo]

In buying a 12" record, those records or promos that were issued in a 45 rpm format usually had superior sound quality when compared to 33 1/3 rpm. The trick is to find a 12" copy in pristine condition. As stated above, if the 12" single was not stored properly, both promo and commercial releases could be of inferior quality. If you get lucky and find a clean copy, there is not much difference in sound quality of commercial versus promo releases, unless one is 45 rpm and the other is 33 1/3 rpm...

And there are one more set of 12" singles issued that we haven't addressed, namely test pressings. And you thought this was an easy question...:icon_biggrin:

Yes. That's one of the main reasons I stopped seriously collecting records a few years back. Because unfortunately, many of the LPs and singles from the '70s and '80s I saw were scratched up.:icon_confused:

I like to physically look through records, spotting things I don't know that look interesting ect.

Yeah, you can't beat that feeling when you flip through some records and finally find that track you've been after for years. But I just can't be arsed to spend hours in a record shop anymore :icon_biggrin:. Also, as I mentioned in a early post, technology has caused quite a few record stores to close recently, because they didn't forsee things, and continued to charge hefty dosh for vinyl: Reckless Records, Tower Records, etc.

[Simon White]

Yes. That's one of the main reasons I stopped seriously collecting records a few years back. Because unfortunately, many of the LPs and singles from the '70s and '80s I saw were scratched up.:icon_confused:


Yeah, you can't beat that feeling when you flip through some records and finally find that track you've been after for years. But I just can't be arsed to spend hours in a record shop anymore :icon_biggrin:. Also, as I mentioned in a early post, technology has caused quite a few record stores to close recently, because they didn't forsee things, and continued to charge hefty dosh for vinyl: Reckless Records, Tower Records, etc.

Hate to admit it but I can't put the hunting hours in like I used to either. I put it down to err....maturity.... the relative lack of 'good' things to look for and (for Northern Soul stuff) the "price guides", which have ruined casual collecting.

As you say Buckeroo, the slow death of vinyl shops is a big factor and the bad condition of lots of records...is scratching and mixing to blame? But there are still shops out there especially in London..Soul Brother and Crazy Beat spring readily to mind and the monthly Black Music Fair in Kilburn is always worth checking out, as are the record fair at Spitalfields market and, to a lesser extent Portobello Rd. It was probably awful, but I'm still annoyed with myself that I didn't buy the 12" of Patti Boulaye doing Melba Moores 'You Stepped Into My Life' I saw there a few weeks back for one pound....but I didn't like the sellers attitude ! :icon_rolleyes:

[buckaroo]

...I didn't like the sellers attitude ! :icon_rolleyes:

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Tell me about it!! Some of these guys think they're doing us a favour, by letting us buy their ****. :icon_rolleyes:

The last time I went into Soul Brother (early '90s), I found it a bit pricey :icon_confused:

[Simon White]

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Tell me about it!! Some of these guys think they're doing us a favour, by letting us buy their ****. :icon_rolleyes:

The last time I went into Soul Brother (early '90s), I found it a bit pricey :icon_confused:

Price is a sensitive issue especially these days eh, buckeroo? But the small specialist independent shops really struggle partly because the big shops offer massive discounts while at the same time stocking less and less music, especialy the type we want.
The likes of Crazy Beat and Soul Brother, both who have huge stocks of the music we love, deserve support when possible because without that support I fear they won't exist much longer !

[kaliffen]

Im buying promos and normal versions, it depends on how the tracklisting is and to some extend how the label looks like.
There are quite a few promo only versions of good tracks (Spanish Hustle), and there are quite a few completely boring promos (80% of all Prince) that had a better commercial released version.

I hate Prelude promos...looks bad and running 45, however the instrumental version of sharon redds Never gonna give up is not available on the normal release. However i think Tommyboys first promos are cool because they are soooo rarely seen, but my planet rock is missing the bonus beats.

I have a good collector friend that hates promos because they were/are so common compared the normal releases. But perhaps that is only true for this area Copenhagen but we were flooded by US promos and cutouts in the early 80s exported from the US.
Read about them in this book Amazon.com: Hit Men: Books: Frederic Dannen

[Simon White]

Im buying promos and normal versions, it depends on how the tracklisting is and to some extend how the label looks like.
There are quite a few promo only versions of good tracks (Spanish Hustle), and there are quite a few completely boring promos (80% of all Prince) that had a better commercial released version.

I hate Prelude promos...looks bad and running 45, however the instrumental version of sharon redds Never gonna give up is not available on the normal release. However i think Tommyboys first promos are cool because they are soooo rarely seen, but my planet rock is missing the bonus beats.

I have a good collector friend that hates promos because they were/are so common compared the normal releases. But perhaps that is only true for this area Copenhagen but we were flooded by US promos and cutouts in the early 80s exported from the US.
Read about them in this book Amazon.com: Hit Men: Books: Frederic Dannen

Interesting ..he thinks there are more promos than issues of some things ? I really do have my suspicions that this will turn out to be more and more true as more promos from DJ collections come onto the market having been stored away and looked after from the start while the issue are getting trashed.

[Cdnbob]

Hey guys thanks for all the info on promos versus retail. Found it really interesting. Just to add to the discussion, I recently started buying vinyl again and the funny thing is a lot of what vinyl I've been finding and buying has been promo copies. I've actually been surprised to find so many promo copies of disco stuff out there.

[BrunoRepublic]

Hey guys thanks for all the info on promos versus retail. Found it really interesting. Just to add to the discussion, I recently started buying vinyl again and the funny thing is a lot of what vinyl I've been finding and buying has been promo copies. I've actually been surprised to find so many promo copies of disco stuff out there.

It's not so surprising when you consider that a lot of the dance music on vinyl that's still circulating out there is from DJ collections.

There are a few releases where there were more promo copies pressed than commercial ones, but that would only be the case if the record was a serious flop (the Lightning album is a good example). If a label ends up giving away more copies than they sell, they can't have done too well on such a release.