Hard to Find Northern Soul & Disco 45s?

[djsonic]

:icon_lol: what are some of the most rare and sought after singles?
sonic.

[marmite7]

Start here...............then work up!
Amazon.co.uk: The Northern Soul Top 500: Books: Kev Roberts,David S. Carne
Amazon.com: The Northern Soul Top 500: Books: Kev Roberts,David S. Carne

[remicks]

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ummm :icon_rolleyes:....
If it wasn't hard to find ....then it wasn't Northern Soul .... since wasn't that the point ....

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[Simon White]

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ummm :icon_rolleyes:....
If it wasn't hard to find ....then it wasn't Northern Soul .... since wasn't that the point ....

*****

ummm :icon_rolleyes:....
Only part of the point, remicks and only some of the time....

[remicks]

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The rare , the hard to find , the unknowns.... was the name of the game

......or else why didn't they include playing the actual hits ?


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[Simon White]

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The rare , the hard to find , the unknowns.... was the name of the game

......or else why didn't they include playing the actual hits ?


*****

Yes, but not the full story remicks..the books tell it better than me but remember, the 'Northern Soul' phenomenon was a UK based thing playing records that were obscure in the UK.. so therefore some records that were well known to the point of charting in the US were played to some extent. Remember also that the US has regional charts too and quite a high number of tracks that the Northern Soul clubs love were regional hits.

[remicks]

Yes, but not the full story remicks..the books tell it better than me but remember, the 'Northern Soul' phenomenon was a UK based thing playing records that were obscure in the UK.. so therefore some records that were well known to the point of charting in the US were played to some extent. Remember also that the US has regional charts too and quite a high number of tracks that the Northern Soul clubs love were regional hits.

Sorry Simon ... I remain unmoved in my position. :icon_smile::icon_rolleyes:
I mean, what are you saying any differently from what I am ??
Songs that were only regional hits are by definition more obscure ...more hard to find . Songs that were " known to the point of charting " ... meaning which records ... the piddly stuff barely scratching the lower regions of the charts ?? .... Therefore they too were more obscure , more hard to find. :icon_rolleyes:


If it wasn't about that , why weren't Motown's big dance songs played ???


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[Simon White]

Sorry Simon ... I remain unmoved in my position. :icon_smile::icon_rolleyes:
I mean, what are you saying any differently from what I am ??
Songs that were only regional hits are by definition more obscure ...more hard to find . Songs that were " known to the point of charting " ... meaning which records ... the piddly stuff barely scratching the lower regions of the charts ?? .... Therefore they too were more obscure , more hard to find. :icon_rolleyes:


If it wasn't about that , why weren't Motown's big dance songs played ???


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Remicks, experience says it's easier to just agree with you so...yes.
Have a nice day !

[remicks]

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Remicks, experience says it's easier to just agree with you so...yes.

Well it's nice to be right !!!

.... I don't know why you were resistant to the fact that we were in agreement on this in the first place ........????



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[sageone]

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ummm :icon_rolleyes:....
If it wasn't hard to find ....then it wasn't Northern Soul .... since wasn't that the point ....

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i dont think the point of northern soul was to find more obscure records at all. Yes it was part of the scene. Its like saying the point of disco was to be gay/black/hispanic or the point of disco was to do the hustle or the point of disco was tom moulton.

The point of northern soul was dancing. Dancing to soul records from the 60's. Records became more obscure because that was the direction it was pushed. I.E because largely it was an "after the event" type of scene. Its direction wasnt dictated by marketing or record companies. So too a records popularity.The direction it went came down to choices the DJs made. That taste so happened to not exactly be, so called "popular R&B/soul" of the time.

but yeah i get the humor in your reply to the first question

[Mr Kaplan]

It's funny to see that some 45's, linked with the "Northern Soul", can sell at a higher price than the 12 inch record. For example

Greg Perry - It Takes Heart
Garfield Fleming - Don't Send Me Away.

[marmite7]

If it wasn't about that , why weren't Motown's big dance songs played ???


*****[/quote]

for the same reason big disco hits would be dropped from the playlist, as soon as they became, er, big hits! No-one wants to dance to something that's being played to death on every radio station.

Kelly Marie's - Feels Like I'm In Love or...... Tony Cook & The Party People - on The Floor (Rock It)?

One major worldwide smash, one, er not. At the time overexposure was (and actually still is) the death of many a good tune.

It's about breaking the sounds "bubbling under" innit

Walk into any club now and you won't hear chart fodder................thank gawd.

Have a top weekend Remmy ol pal :icon_razz:

[sageone]

marmite u want that lama 12" or not?:icon_question:

i pm'd u but no reply

[Simon White]

It's funny to see that some 45's, linked with the "Northern Soul", can sell at a higher price than the 12 inch record. For example

Greg Perry - It Takes Heart
Garfield Fleming - Don't Send Me Away.

In general Mr Kaplan, 7" singles are more desirable on the Northern Soul scene than 12" singles. In the two cases you mention there are probably more 12" around than 7's because by nature the more Modern Northern Soul desirables were aimed at a 12" friendly dancefloor if you see what I mean. Or it might have something to do with DJ's not being able to cram a 12" into a 7" box.

[sageone]

the vast majority of northern soul tunes predated 1970's.... so 12" singles largely didnt exist in the northern soul scene. It became a 7" culture because a 7 was what was available as a single. After that it comes down to collectablity do you want the ridgy didge version or some bootleg? If you have 2000 7"s as your collection do you want 4 12" records in it? If you have 2000 Disco 12"s do you want 10 Disco 7" records?

thats just a matter of personal taste.:icon_eek:

[remicks]

The bottom line here continues to be :
If it wasn't about that , why weren't Motown's big dance songs played ???


*****


Hi Marmite thanks for your input . I hope you can humour me while I take a few pokes at it ...... :icon_mrgreen:

I asked : IF IT WASN'T ABOUT THAT , WHY WEREN'T MOTOWN'S BIG DANCE SONGS PLAYED ??

To which you answered :

" for the same reason big disco hits would be dropped from the playlist, as soon as they became, er, big hits! No-one wants to dance to something that's being played to death on every radio station.

Not sure I concure with the second part of that ....but .... if that was the case concerning Northern Soul ... then you and I agree :icon_cool: ..... since all I've said here all along was:
Northern Soul was about the the obscure/ hard to find 60's soul/ dance songs ... ie ... as you say the records that hadn't already been worn out via the radio ....

This attitude really didn't apply as firmly to disco as you suggest however ... DJ's cared only how their floor reacted to the song ... nevermind what was happening with it elsewhere .... or its ranking on the radio . Many (most) clubs depended on those radio hits to carry the night though ....

I looked at Marky's latest chart to check out the relationship :

Billboard HOT 100 Top 10: for September 11, 1976

1) (Shake, Shake, Shake) SHAKE YOUR BOOTY - KC & The Sunshine Band (T.K.) (1st week @ #1)
Number one on the radio and #12 for disco club play that same week

2) YOU'LL NEVER FIND ANOTHER LOVE LIKE MINE - Lou Rawls (PIR)
and #10 club play same week

3) PLAY THAT FUNKY MUSIC - Wild Cherry (Sweet City/Epic)
#3 radio and #14 disco same week and climbing

6) YOU SHOULD BE DANCING - Bee Gees (RSO) ( #1 last week)
dropping from #1 on the radio but still #1 in the clubs

7) LOWDOWN - Boz Scaggs (Columbia)
yet still floating around in the clubs after 14 weeks ..this week climbing from #28 to #21

Billboard Soul/R&B Chart #1:
1) PLAY THAT FUNKY MUSIC - Wild Cherry (2nd week @ #1)
Already number one Soul .... but still climbing in the disco clubs
:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:

Kelly Marie's - Feels Like I'm In Love or...... Tony Cook & The Party People - on The Floor (Rock It)?
One major worldwide smash, one, er not. At the time overexposure was (and actually still is) the death of many a good tune.

err ---- Sorry ....

It's about breaking the sounds "bubbling under" innit

Yes . But disco was about breaking the sounds bubbling under that could go on to become big hits ( or not) ... Northern Soul was about playing only the bubbling unders that didn't go on to become big hits ...
ie .....the more obscure/ hard-to-find ones

Walk into any club now and you won't hear chart fodder................thank gawd.

OK ... but that's only because club music no longer (or only rarely) makes it to radio ... right? .... But .... then again today's rap clubs feature music getting radio play .... so you would hear chart fodder there ....
................... .... but not sure how that relates to NS ???

Have a top weekend Remmy ol pal :icon_razz:

Thanks Marmite
& thanks for providing me some good stuff to chew on
... best wishes back at 'cha.



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[remicks]

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Hi Sageone. Thanks for your input. I hope you can humour me while I take a few pokes at it ...... :icon_mrgreen:

i dont think the point of northern soul was to find more obscure records at all. Yes it was part of the scene.

OK .... then it should be easy to name 10 "Northern Soul " songs that were also big hits .

Its like saying the point of disco was to be gay/black/hispanic or the point of disco was to do the hustle or the point of disco was tom moulton.

It is? How ?
Disco music didn't use such factors like these to define itself ... but Northern Soul had its constraints as described .

The point of northern soul was dancing. Dancing to soul records from the 60's

.
Well.... The point of Northern Soul was dancing to a select type of soul records of the 60's .

Records became more obscure because that was the direction it was pushed. I.E because largely it was an "after the event" type of scene. Its direction wasnt dictated by marketing or record companies. So too a records popularity.The direction it went came down to choices the DJs made. That taste so happened to not exactly be, so called "popular R&B/soul" of the time.

Yep. We agree . :icon_cool:

There was an intentional choice made by the Djs ... by their crowds .... to play only the obscure /hard-to-find soul songs from the sixties ... and not the so called popular R&B soul of the time .

Seems we're all basically saying the same thing here ... doesn't it ...

but yeah i get the humor in your reply to the first question

Humour ?? ... Me ?? :icon_razz: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

Have a good one Sageone


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[Simon White]

remicks dear old thing, your postings make sense only to you I suspect, bless ya ! :icon_rolleyes:

But I do admire you knack of confusing everything and making it look like everyone agrees all along with what you'd already said if only they'd understood what you said properly in the first place. :icon_rolleyes:

Anyway, in an attempt to put the thread back on topic and go back to the original question therefore avoiding another 'remicks is always right ' festival ...

djsonic asked:
"what are some of the most rare and sought after singles?"

marmite cited the book "The Northern Soul Top 500" which is not a bad starting point although it is is by no means a definitive look at the whole Northern Soul thing and doesn't claim to be. In fact some of the choices are clearly the authors own and as it was published seven years ago it doesn't take into account records that have become popular since then.

As an instance, I was DJing (alongside others much better and more knowledgeable than me) at an event last weekend and the three records that got most dancefloor reaction across the nite were The Brothers 'Are You Ready For This', Sidney Barnes 'Standing On Solid Ground' and AC Reed 'My Baby's Been Cheating (I Know)' three records that are, in order, a disco record, a recently made record, and an 'R&B' track, none of which are in the "Top 500" in the list and all records that throw the mythical Northern Soul rulebook away...unless you go by dance style in which case they all work perfectly ! One of the biggest records on Northern soul dancefloors right now is 'Ain't No Mountain High Enough' by Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell a US top twenty hit on Motown..hardly rare or obscure !

However, the top record in the list is the well known Frank Wilson 'Do I Love You' the amazing story story of which is well documented (2 known copies exist) and technically someone paid £15,000 for the record. I don't know what that is in dollars this week.

A random selection of 20 from the next 200 on the list gives the following a mixture of rare and easy to find...if you know where to look ! I'm not saying they're the rarest or most sought after ...I bought a record I've wanted for a few years myself recently that isn't in the book for instance but was sought after by me (Pat Sands And The Pebbles 'Loving Him' on Sussex...the Billy Woods record listed at number 115 below is also on Sussex (a Van McCoy production incidentally) and is price listed at £2000 - Pat Sands is considerably less !

No. 5 Jimmy Radcliffe 'Long After Tonight Is All Over'
No. 13 The Tomangoe's 'I Really Love You'
No. 20 R Dean Taylor 'There's A Ghost In My House'
No. 32 Lou Johnson 'Unsatisfied'
No. 39 Little Anthony And The Imperials 'Better Use Your Head'
No. 44 The Voices Of East Harlem 'Cashing In'
No. 46 Bobby Hutton 'Lend A Hand'
No. 50 Dee Dee Sharp 'What Kind of Lady'
No. 63 Darrell Banks 'Open The Door To Your Heart'
No. 64 The Spinners 'I'll Always Love You'
No. 76 The Tams 'Hey Girl Don't Bother Me'
No. 78 Paul Anka ' I Can't Help Loving You'
No. 82 Christine Cooper 'Heartaches Away My Boy'
No 90 The Yum Yums 'Gonna Be A Big Thing'
No. 100 Millie Jackson 'My Man, A Sweet Man'
No. 111 Ike and Tina Turner 'Dust My Broom'
No. 115 Billy Woods 'Let Me Make You Happy'
No. 157 James And Bobby Purify 'Shake A Tail Feather'
No. 177 NF Porter 'Keep on Keeping On'
No. 192 Earl Van Dyke And Motown Brass '6 X 6'

As I say, thats a random selection of loved tracks from the "500" book that the Northern Soul clubs and dancefloors have loved, some more obscure than others and records that, in the main, anyone involved with the Northern Soul scene would know and dance to, and possibly have themselves (praise be the CD !) in some form or another. Two of 'em I played last weekend seven of 'em I had in my playbox last weekend (none of them were rare or particularly obscure), one of the above list I wouldn't give the time of day, three of the above list are Motown non hit records, but equally playing The Four Tops 'Something About You' or 'Shake Me Wake Me', both US top twenty, would have worked too.

[remicks]

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I know I'm at risk of being a ball hog here ... sorry .... but I happen to be right here when you posted Simon ... .....and while I don't want to divert from your wonderful post aimed directly at the initial topic ... I do see a couple of places where you slide in a couple of comments more aimed at me and mine ... so if you don't mind.... I'll briefly respond .
Please skip the remainder of this post if you'd prefer not to be any more confused or sidetracked ....

remicks dear old thing, your postings make sense only to you I suspect, bless ya ! :icon_rolleyes:
But I do admire you knack of confusing everything and making it look like everyone agrees all along with what you'd already said if only they'd understood what you said properly in the first place. :icon_rolleyes:

What part are you having trouble understanding Simon, you dear old thing yourself . ...I'll go over it again for you more slowly :icon_razz: :icon_lol:

Anyway, in an attempt to put the thread back on topic and go back to the original question therefore avoiding another 'remicks is always right ' festival ...

To make something clear : When I offer an opinion or participate in a topic, the point is never that "remicks is always right" :icon_mad:!! ..... It's more that ... "remicks thinks he's right" ... after all , why would I argue something where I thought I was wrong??? :icon_exclaim: .........:icon_question:
It's simply up to you to adequately set me right ... isn't it ??

As an instance, I was DJing (alongside others much better and more knowledgeable than me) at an event last weekend and the three records that got most dance floor reaction across the nite were The Brothers 'Are You Ready For This', Sidney Barnes 'Standing On Solid Ground' and AC Reed 'My Baby's Been Cheating (I Know)' three records that are, in order, a disco record, a recently made record, and an 'R&B' track, none of which are in the "Top 500" in the list and all records that throw the mythical Northern Soul rulebook away...unless you go by dance style in which case they all work perfectly ! One of the biggest records on Northern soul dancefloors right now is 'Ain't No Mountain High Enough' by Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell a US top twenty hit on Motown. .hardly rare or obscure !

Here's where it gets sticky in my opinion . When you refer to " an event last weekend" or " Northern Soul Dance floors right now " .... That's not actual Northern Soul ... When I refer to Northern Soul I am talking specifically about the genuine era of the phenomena ...those early seventies years. The post years revivals are just a watered down imitation of the real thing .... as witnessed by the desire to include disco songs and contemporary soul songs ....:icon_rolleyes:
I mean seriously Simon ..... if you're going to posthumously claim that Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell's "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN HIGH ENOUGH " has now become a Northern Soul song .... :icon_twisted:. :icon_twisted:. :icon_twisted:... where does it end ??
Hell just claim the whole Motown catalogue as Northern Soul and get it over with .

OK those are my additional confusing comments for you ..... you dear old thing


love always
remicks


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[marmite7]

"OK .... then it should be easy to name 10 "Northern Soul " songs that were also big hits."

By definition matey, Northern Soul "big hits" would be few & far between due to the lack of sales at the time of release!

By the time a particular tune became popular on the dance floors of Britain, it had already been recorded, pressed, distributed, deleted and forgotten about.....................only to be resurrected, revered and sought-after.

A few hit the (UK) charts second time around (on re-release), such as:

Dean Parrish - I'm On My Way
Jackie Wilson - I Get The Sweetest Feeling
Little Anthony & The Imperials - Better Use Your Head
R Dean Taylor - There's A Ghost In My House
Willie Mitchell - The Champion
Ramsey Lewis - Wade In The Water
Showstoppers - Ain't Nothing But A HouseParty
Tami Lynn - I'm Gonna Run Away From You
Tommy Hunt - Loving On The Losing Side

but these were the lucky ones to be picked up by major labels. The vast majority of Northern Soul tunes were originally released on small independant labels and sunk without trace.


Your chart comparison, although interesting would not have looked the same 6 months down the line, as the DJ's would have stopped playing "You Should Be Dancing" for example and moved onto something "new".

N. Soul DJ's couldn't do the "new" bit, but they could spin something which had only recently been unearthed from the vaults, someone's garage, yard, shed or wherever unsold stock gathered dust.

"OK ... but that's only because club music no longer (or only rarely) makes it to radio ... right? .... But .... then again today's rap clubs feature music getting radio play .... so you would hear chart fodder there"

Not sure about The US charts dude, but over here we still have huge club hits (Infernal - From Paris To Berlin, Darude - Sandstorm), crossing into the mainstream charts, but once they achieve that status no self-respecting DJ would drop the tune at a gig, unless you were at a Ritzy's-type club

I still go clubbing (Boomslang @ The Junction, in Cambridge), where DJ's such as Kid Kenobi, Stanton Warriors & Krafty Kuts play for 6 hours without one chart hit..................and for that I get down on me knees and thank the lord


"but Northern Soul had its constraints as described"

The ONLY constraint, is that a tune falls under the banner "Northern Soul".


Jackie Wilson's I Get The Sweetest Feeling is as much a Northern Soul record as The International GTO's - I Love My Baby or The Present's - Many The Slip. One a world-wide known hit record, the other two obscure rarities. But all three still fit the bill.

*hangover still throbbing so off for coffee*

:icon_smile:

[Simon White]

Nice post marmite and hopefully it clears up a few things for remicks. :icon_biggrin:

[remicks]

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are you kidding!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_razz:

but it's very late .... I'm very tired .... AND I have to work in the AM :icon_eek::icon_sad:


so hold those thoughts ...... :icon_biggrin:


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[sageone]

remicks posted:

"Yes . But disco was about breaking the sounds bubbling under that could go on to become big hits ( or not) ... Northern Soul was about playing only the bubbling unders that didn't go on to become big hits ...
ie .....the more obscure/ hard-to-find ones "

I dont think disco, Northern Soul, Funk, Rock, Latin etc are about anything other than music and maybe dancing.

You are referring to genres as if they are a PR manager at a record company.

A genre isnt a person it doesnt have an agenda or a purpose, it doesnt have clearly defined boundaries, there are so many grey areas. Essentially it is a marketing tool but in reality it is just music, it is what the artists intended, to move people either physically, mentally or to make a buck, and it either appeals to you or it doesnt. To talk about a genre as if it is "about something" seems a little ridicuous and trivial (to me).

To me its like saying disco was about 12" records.

[remicks]

To talk about a genre as if it is "about something" seems a little ridicuous and trivial (to me).

Do you know there are many many many many people who would comment that listening to disco was "ridiculous and trivial"? So should I just stop ? :icon_razz:

I dont think disco, Northern Soul, Funk, Rock, Latin etc are about anything other than music and maybe dancing.

You are referring to genres as if they are a PR manager at a record company.

A genre isnt a person it doesnt have an agenda or a purpose, it doesnt have clearly defined boundaries, there are so many grey areas. Essentially it is a marketing tool but in reality it is just music, it is what the artists intended, to move people either physically, mentally or to make a buck, and it either appeals to you or it doesnt. To talk about a genre as if it is "about something" seems a little ridicuous and trivial (to me).

To me its like saying disco was about 12" records.

I have to disagree. (!!!) ..Well first ...I'll agree that genres do have grey areas . This is partly why there are often resulting sub-genres.
But there does seem to be that certain line that gets crossed when a song stops being of a certain genre ..... for instance when a record 's sound is no longer one that would be heard in a disco . I like tryng to determine those lines ... ridiculous and trivial to some ... but I personally like exploring it ....

Because I do think there are these certain parameters that define genres ... this is how one decides if music is reggae , country ...Hawaiian . I mean how would you like to go to a punk rock concert expecting to do some hard core mashing and up on stage there's Peter Paul & Mary .... and they say ..."Hey don't get caught up on boundaries ...marketing tools ... it's all music." :icon_rolleyes:

Secondly I don't consider Northern Soul a "genre" . I consider it a cultural phenomena ...(the music that was used within it was largely from a specific genre ..."American Soul" ). And yes this phenomena was about a specific something . It wasn't just about just dancing ... or rather it wasn't about dancing to just anything ...
It was very deliberate in what was driving it .... with certain requirements of the music used .... certain records were played while others were not ...... or else there'd been no need for DJs to go out dumpster diving.

It was a very special , sincere sort of wondrous type of happening that really was "about something" .

*****

[sageone]

Do you know there are many many many many people who would comment that listening to disco was "ridiculous and trivial"? So should I just stop ? :icon_razz:


I have to disagree. (!!!) ..Well first ...I'll agree that genres do have grey areas . This is partly why there are often resulting sub-genres.
But there does seem to be that certain line that gets crossed when a song stops being of a certain genre ..... for instance when a record 's sound is no longer one that would be heard in a disco . I like tryng to determine those lines ... ridiculous and trivial to some ... but I personally like exploring it ....


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no i dont think you should stop but

i dont think you got what i was talking about at all

firstly you are commenting that northern soul is about collecting and playing obscure records. does that mean it is? The thousands of people who went to all nighters - was their priority to only dance to a record if it was obscure, that to me seems to be trivialising the movement? It is highly reductionist. By your definition anyone who has a collection of obscure soul records has a "northern soul" collection, anyone who plays obscure soul records is a northern soul dj.

My point was that any definition has to be loose as there are always exceptions there are always records that trancend any boundary that you or I can give it. Take soul makossa many people consider it an early disco record, others consider it to be afro funk. Who is right?

You are taking a very black and white view. That northern soul was "about" one thing. I am allowing for the possibility that it wasnt "about" anything but instead had many and varied elements.

Certainly one of those elements was obscure records but it neither begins nor ends there.