Nice And Slow - Which version came first?

[canadiantire]

Scrolling through my 12 inches, I've came across a version of Nice and Slow sang by SANTIAGO, that I've acquired some time ago.

It is a 5'35" single, dated "1976" on Amherst label.

Until today I've never really listened to it in full because I've put it aside when I realized that Jesse Green was not the singer. The man who sings is most likely named Ken Gibson.

As weird as it could be, the musical track is identical to the Jesse Green's version.

Here is my question:

Which one of the two versions (SANTIAGO or Jesse Green) came first on the market?

Thanks,


- Marcus

[tony98]

I've always assumed that the Jesse Green version was the original.I didn't know about the Santiago version until i picked it up from a bargain bin in the early 80's.

[Videoskooter]

Difficult one!

Both came out in 1976, Santiago's version was released by Amherst Records and by Derby Records. They are both produced by Ken Gibson, but Santiago was remixed by Eliott Rosoff and Tony Rodriguez. And I believe that the one by Jesse got a Disco remix by Mel Cheren.

[canadiantire]

So I guess that there is no fixed answer to this question...

I was trying yo figure who got the hit first (or the most sold single).

I've always heard the version from Jesse Green, so unless I'm too young too remember Jesse won the fight over SANTIAGO.

This is one more of those existential questions.

Thanks for the feedback.

- Marcus

[originalbigm]

So I guess that there is no fixed answer to this question...

I was trying yo figure who got the hit first (or the most sold single).

I've always heard the version from Jesse Green, so unless I'm too young too remember Jesse won the fight over SANTIAGO.

This is one more of those existential questions.

Thanks for the feedback.

- Marcus

Actually as I recall BITD I had first obtained Nice & Slow by Jesse Green on the Scepter Label through the record pool. A short time later (within a couple of weeks) I obtained a 7" promo copy of Nice and Slow by Shawn Elliot Santiago on the Amherst label.Based on that my assumption would be that Jesse Green had the hit first.However here's some interesting information.I dug out my 7" promo copy by Shawn Elliot Santiago and my
7 " version by Jesse Green.After examining the Jesse Green label there is this notation on it
"Produced by Ken Gibson & Dave Howman , Flute & Voice production for American Recording:Elliot Rosoff Engineer for American Recording : Tony Rodriguez. Opal Recording Studio N.Y.C.

On the Shawn Elliot Santiago version I observed these notes on the label
"Prod:/Arr. Elliot Rosoff/ Eng: Tony Rodriguez Recorded at Opal Studios/N.Y.C"
It appears that these are essentially the same recording from an instrumental point of view with different vocals and mix.I actually cued them up on OTS Turntables as I have them on mp3 and ran them simultaneously at the vocals instrumentally they are identical in pitch, tempo and key.Jesse Green however has the more polished vocals of the two.

[Videoskooter]

Now that Originalbigm has provided all the details, three questions from me:

- Is ol' Jesse still around?

- Why is his 1978 track 'Disco Crazy' almost never mentioned? It's a very enjoyable and extremely danceable track.

- Why isn't this sleeve posted? :icon_eek:

[canadiantire]

[quote=Videoskooter;119060]Now that Originalbigm has provided all the details, three questions from me:

- Is ol' Jesse still around?

- Why is his 1978 track 'Disco Crazy' almost never mentioned? It's a very enjoyable and extremely danceable track.

- Why isn't this sleeve posted? :icon_eek:


I have a vague idea why this sleeve was not posted before.

In the Jesse’s years, plastic surgery was not fashionable.

In our years of physical perfection, the new rules for such display of skin, calls for thorax attributes that are less affected by gravity...

As far as the “which version came first” theory, I buy originalbigm’s hypothesis.

The facts don’t lie.

This is a good research.

- Marcus

[disco-disc]

INTRIGUING...the story in Mels book is that he MIXED the track NICE AND SLOW - Mel added vocals to the Instrumental version :icon_surprised: .....I read that the UK had the Instrumental release and then a Vocal version appeared mixed by Mel ...so it seems it was used THREE TIMES in quick succesion...
THE WORLDS FIRST MENAGE A TROIS RECORD anyone ?????:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

.....The second question should be WHOSE vocals were added first ? MR S or MR G ?????

[markydefad]

May 15, 1976

Billboard Magazine



Page 1—Club DJs Blend Cuts For Cos.’ Disco Disks By Jim Melanson

NEW YORK—Blending of final-mix disco tracks by club DJs for commercial and 12-inch promotional releases is the latest twist in the ongoing discotheque scene.

Both Scepter and Salsoul have opted to come with disks featuring spinner blending, Scepter on “Nice And Slow” by Jesse Green and Salsoul on “Ten Per Cent” by the group Double Exposure.

Walter Gibbons, DJ at Galaxy 21 here worked the Double Exposure tune while Howard Metz, spinner at Los Angeles’ Circus Maximus club, gets blending credit on the Scepter record. (continued on page 39)


CLUB DJS MIXING MASTERS

(continued from page 1)

Notably, the development stacks up as a mini-breakthrough for label-disco DJ relations, as a number of labels have sought to involve spinners in various phases of production of disks aimed at the dance set without much success to date.

In most cases, either the spinners weren't sophisticated enough for in-studio a&r work or they found their paths blocked by well-entrenched producers and mixers already familiar with the dance sound.

One exception, though, has been RCA's David Todd, DJ at Adam's Apple here, who's been acting in the capacity of a&r consultant and promotional coordinator on disco product from the label.

"We broke our first record via the discos and that's where our strength still is," says Salsoul's Ken Cayre. He explains that going to [Walter] Gibbons for a blending of two separate tracks (one a vocal, the other an instrumental) was part of a conscious effort to make product appealing to discos.

The tracks provided to Gibbons were final-mixes which ran approximately four minutes in length. The spinner, who blended the tracks at the Frank Ford Wayne Laboratories here and who was paid $185 for his efforts, produced the 9:45 version.

That version was used for 12-inch disco disks sent out for airplay (2,500 in all) and has recently been used on the flip side of a commercial 12-inch 45 r.p.m. record shipped by the label (see separate story).

Cayre says that the $185 broke down to $85 to cover Gibbons salary at the club for the night and $100 for the blending. Gibbons is given credit for the blend on both the commercial and promotional pressings.

The record, featuring the four-man group Double Exposure, was arranged by Norman Harris and produced by Baker/Harris/Young Productions.

"We feel that disco spinners are better equipped to judge the public's response to disco product," explains Cayre. He says that the label hopes to involve other area DJs in the future releases, for blending as well as for the mixing purposes.

Over at Scepter, label executive Mel Cheren says that [Howard] Metz' involvement happened inadvertently. The West Coast player received a promotional copy of the single "Nice and Slow," with a 3:05 vocal version on one side and a 4:40 instrumental version on the flip side, for club exposure.

Without being asked, Metz blended both versions and came up with a new 5:45 version and passed it along to Scepter's Patrick Jenkins, who sent it back to Cheren here.

Cheren, who mixed the original two versions, says that he was impressed enough with Metz' new versions to go back into the studio using the blended version as a guideline for a new mix.

The new Cheren/Metz blend-mix is the one going out to clubs via 12-inch promotional disks (1,600 copies).

How much Metz was paid Cheren wouldn't say, but he does state that Metz is given credit on the blended disk version.

It's also planned to use the new version for the second run of commercial copies pressed, adds Cheren.

Interestingly, the 12-incher also marks a first for Scepter in that it's used to promote product on separate labels. The flip side features the tune "I Get Lifted" by Sweet Music, which records for Scepter-distributed
Wand. "Nice And Slow" is on Scepter itself.

Cheren says he's long sought to involve club spinners in label activities and that he's hopeful that this latest development will help the flow of communication between the camps.

"The disco DJs are the kids with the ears," he says.

[Mixmachine]

Nice article interesting to see how much they paid for the "Ten Percent" mix ($185.00 what a pittance! ) and how many promo copies were pressed.

I also remember the Jesse Green 7" copy arriving first soon followed close behind by the Shawn Elliot Santiago version ( as credited on the Amherst 7" and 12" copy label), I was never able to get my hands on Jesse's 5:45 12" version as it was pretty rare , now I see why when only 1600 copies were ever pressed.

I was able to find the Santiago 12" copy back then though, but I always liked Jesse's vocals better.

[Mixmachine]

After listening to this two different versions off the 7" many times again I find that on Santiago's version they have replaced the real horn sections/passages found on Jesse's version (i.e. during intro) with synths throughout the song, or at least, if it is the same instrumental mix they altered this portion's sound so much that it sounds nothing like horns/brass.

Now I remember why I always felt Santiago's version was a cover of Jesse's, even though they almost arrived at the same time.

[Disco Funk]

Is the Santiago version based on the original mix of Nice & Slow by Jesse Green? I'm referring to the 45 mix that didn't have the flutes and the extra lyrics and vocals 'let it gooooooo....nice and sloooooooowww'.

Disco Funk

[Mixmachine]

Is the Santiago version based on the original mix of Nice & Slow by Jesse Green? I'm referring to the 45 mix that didn't have the flutes and the extra lyrics and vocals 'let it gooooooo....nice and sloooooooowww'.

Disco Funk

I don't know exactly what you mean, :icon_confused:both versions have flutes, Santiago's vocal version mix is almost identical except for the small difference I mentioned before, on the 7" the flip instrumentals are different, Jesse's (by Mel Cheren)is much better without any main vocals, and it has a nice break towards the second half with music layers building up a la Moulton style, this section was perfect to use on an extended mix, I don't know what they did for (Jesse's)the 12" version since I don't have it and my Santiago 12" is not here with me.

Santiago's vocal version has extra vocalisation passage towards the end as you mentioned, and his delivery tends to linger, like "set my souuuuul on Fiiiiire" "see the Flaaaaames grown Hoooooter" but is not really bad , just different:icon_biggrin:

[Disco Funk]

Thank you for clearing it up. Here's the alternate mix of Jesse Green's Nice & Slow. Not as good as the one with the flutes. You can barely hear the hi-hat in this mix, there's no tambourine or flute (that was a good hook); and there was the extra bridge section that doesn't work. I edited out the first verse, so this is just a piece of the song:

Nice and Slow

Disco Funk

[Mixmachine]

Thank you for clearing it up. Here's the alternate mix of Jesse Green's Nice & Slow. Not as good as the one with the flutes. You can barely hear the hi-hat in this mix, there's no tambourine or flute (that was a good hook); and there was the extra bridge section that doesn't work. I edited out the first verse, so this is just a piece of the song:

Nice and Slow

Disco Funk

Ahh,:icon_smile: now I see what you are asking, in your sample they removed the Flute during the vocal verses (except for a couple of notes), both 7" versions by Santiago and Jesse include the flute there, which I agree, the flute makes a big difference.

On the other hand, I dont think I ever heard that vocal 'bridge' portion on your sample, maybe it is on the LP? I don't remember since I bought it years later after the song popularity subsided and never played it much.

I'll dig it out of storage to see later, if it was released on the 12" version only then I'll have to do without it:icon_confused:I'll save your clip!

Hey, the instrument right after "oh oh oh"... "oh oh".. "oh oh oh " during the intro..
Does that sounds like trumpets to you or synths??

[Mixmachine]

The new Cheren/Metz blend-mix is the one going out to clubs via 12-inch promotional disks (1,600 copies).

39)(R) NICE AND SLOW - Jesse Green
Scepter 45/ 12” promo remix 5:45/ 12” single commercially available—limited pressing) (10 points/ 2 charts = Denver/ Pittsburgh)

BDA Top 30/40: 2 weeks on chart / RETRUN (last charted 8/28/76 @ #28.)
DCC chart: 18 weeks on chart/ RETURN (last charted 8/28/76 @ #36)

I wonder how many copies of this "Limited pressing" Scepter issued for the retail market, (enough to reach Miami ???) I know what Moulton said in his Billboard column posted by Markydefad here, but I'm still very perplexed as to how I missed this 12" back in the day, this was a favorite song of mine and during this days I was Vinyl hunting three and four times a week!!:icon_rolleyes:

[Disco Funk]

Ahh,:icon_smile: now I see what you are asking, in your sample they removed the Flute during the vocal verses (except for a couple of notes), both 7" versions by Santiago and Jesse include the flute there, which I agree, the flute makes a big difference.

On the other hand, I dont think I ever heard that vocal 'bridge' portion on your sample, maybe it is on the LP? I don't remember since I bought it years later after the song popularity subsided and never played it much.

I'll dig it out of storage to see later, if it was released on the 12" version only then I'll have to do without it:icon_confused:I'll save your clip!

Hey, the instrument right after "oh oh oh"... "oh oh".. "oh oh oh " during the intro..
Does that sounds like trumpets to you or synths??

The version in my sample is on the red coach 45. It's not a collectors item or anything. You could probably find it cheap from any online auction place or seller. I've got two copies of the LP (the one with cleavage, and the one with him on the cover), and neither feature that 45 mix. Neither does the red coach 12" (it's just the 5:30 extended edit of the flute mixes - vocal and instrumental). I'm guessing that the red coach 45 was the original mix done in the UK or wherever his record was produced, and then Mel took it and enhanced it and made it sound better.

The instruments are definitely trumpets during the 'whoaaaaoooh...' intro.

Disco Funk

[Disco Funk]

In case anyone is interested, I think it was either Unidisc or Hot Productions (or both) which did their own re-edits of the vocal and instrumental flute mix, which is what the original 12" is based on anyway, as far as I can tell. So the arrangement is slightly different in those later label productions, which is why you might see different running times.

I have a question about a version listed as being from 1982 called US mix? I think it's backed by Come With Me. Was this a remix as well, or just a reissue of the '76 12" mix? It was on Excalibur Records:

Nice & Slow b/w Come With me

Judging by the running time (almost 7 min), I'm wondering if its the same edit as the Unidisc version.

Unidisc version of Nice & Slow

Disco Funk

[Mixmachine]

The version in my sample is on the red coach 45. It's not a collectors item or anything. You could probably find it cheap from any online auction place or seller. I've got two copies of the LP (the one with cleavage, and the one with him on the cover), and neither feature that 45 mix. Neither does the red coach 12" (it's just the 5:30 extended edit of the flute mixes - vocal and instrumental). I'm guessing that the red coach 45 was the original mix done in the UK or wherever his record was produced, and then Mel took it and enhanced it and made it sound better.

Red coach label version only then, Thanks I keep an eye for it,

The instruments are definitely trumpets during the 'whoaaaaoooh...' intro.
Disco Funk

If you ever get the Santiago version , listen to the same section, here they sound like synths to me.

I can't help you with your other questions , as I don't know any of those re-issues :icon_confused:

[Disco Funk]

I'll definitely have to check out the Santiago version.

Scratch the 'Red Coach' - that was the Greg Carmichael Patrick Adams label, I believe. I mean 'Red Bus Tempo'.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

*****

Came upon my Santiago copy and it has the same version on both sides and it uses all real instruments thru- out .

The vocals have less life than Jesse's ...and yes he holds his words longer but otherwise very similar.... somewhat George McCrea .


*****

[Giovanni]

Great thread guys! This is the kind of things I like to read in the forum!

To add my personal view... the Scepter 12" (with the Howard Metz, Mel Cheren mix) has a clear chop edit around 2:53 with the beginning of the instrumental break without the flute, while the Santiago version seems to me better edited if not reworked at all (maybe the master track was the same but a studio job was done for sure), and you cannot hear the chop as in the Jesse Green version

[Disco Funk]

I got my hands on the Santiago version (both 12" and 7" versions) and it definitely sounds like the same backing track. The horns could have been re-recorded, but they might just sound different because they sit differently in the mix (middle of Santiago's version, off to one channel in Green's version). They also sound like they may have been augmented with some strings, which may have changed their sound. The backing vocals are the same.
I remember reading the credits on the album or single of Green's version that he plays the comb on the remix, and comb is featured in the Santiago mix, so I think that proves his was the second version.
I notice the drum break is shorter in the Santiago version. In the Green version, you can hear some bleedthrough or noise the microphone picked up, but this is gone in the Santiago version.
It's too bad the Santiago version didn't attempt to change the disco/long arrangement. If they really wanted to sound distinct from the Green version, they could have made the instrumental section slightly different. Instead it just builds up the exact same way as the Jesse Green version. Totally done to rip off Green. Maybe there was some bad blood there?
Both versions feature some bad/glaring edits. The Santiago long version has a really bad one in the instrumental section where the flute comes in. Sounds like a vocal or loud instrument squeezes in for a split second just before the downbeat.
Disco Funk

[Mixmachine]

I got my hands on the Santiago version (both 12" and 7" versions) and it definitely sounds like the same backing track. The horns could have been re-recorded, but they might just sound different because they sit differently in the mix (middle of Santiago's version, off to one channel in Green's version). They also sound like they may have been augmented with some strings, which may have changed their sound.

I think this is what they did, they overlaid another instrument over the horns, it could be Strings, or some cheesy synth.

I remember reading the credits on the album or single of Green's version that he plays the comb on the remix, and comb is featured in the Santiago mix, so I think that proves his was the second version.

What is this comb instrument??:icon_question::icon_sad:

Both versions feature some bad/glaring edits. The Santiago long version has a really bad one in the instrumental section where the flute comes in. Sounds like a vocal or loud instrument squeezes in for a split second just before the downbeat.
Disco Funk

:icon_eek:Disco funk , that's a good catch!! you've got a very keen sense of hearing, i'll bet most people never heard this at all, I tend to dismiss some of this minor mistakes, especially from back then when all the editing was done on tape and the editor was trying to extend or stich vocal/instrumental portions from already studio premixed material.

The editor here was editing on the downbeat trying to mask the incomming instrument , but a split second was left behind, editing on the downbeat was not very easy to do on tape, I used to mark everything that needed to be cut off and filled that space in (exactly the same tape length) with the downbeat of the incomming portion, it was tricky, sometimes I had to do it a few times to get it right.

[canadiantire]

I have to add that there are two side "A" on my Amherst copy...