Is the sale of Lp's that include a CDR copy legal?

[discodevil]

I have seen some records for sale on the web that state ,
LP + CDR copy --This is not a commercial CD it is a vinyl record album with a custom-made conversion on CD for your personal use.
Its a good idea but Is this a legal thing to do?

[QUINNY]

I've been puzzled by these.

In theory at least, by making a CD-R copy which they then 'sell', even if it's included as a freebie with the LP, they're breaking the law, as they are gaining commercial advantage by it (the freebie CD-R copy is worth something and may entice potential buyers of the LP away from someone else who merely has the LP for sale).

Their copying and including the copy as part of a sale is not covered by the 'fair use' law, neither. Fair use is only legal for the person who owns the vinyl and their own personal use thereof.

That's how I understand it. Anyone know any different?

[kdavid13]

No that pretty much covers it.
I guess they assume that whoever buys the LP will eventually transfer it and make himself a CD-R copy.So offering it already made could be a selling point.
They should say : You have no time ?? Ya like to boogie ??? Here's a nice offer : Your favorite LOVE & KISSES or FRANCE JOLI album all ready to load into your iPod !!!

[Disco Funk]

I've seen at least one online seller who does this, and their records are usually twice as expensive as the competition, so I don't think the CD-R is a 'freebie'. If their prices were on par with the other sellers, then I could see it being a free bonus item. So if you're paying all that extra money, how do they deal with people who complain about a transfer that was poorly done (like the record skipped)?

Disco Funk

[Bernie]

While the above is definitely illegal I do see a possible way around this. This needs to be looked into further, but apparently it is legal to make a copy of something you own so the seller could conceivably sell you the record FIRST and then offer to do the transfer so that the sequence of events make it legal. What do you think?

[White Raven]

If the collector really wants to get something, it doesn’t mind how much the thing, he’s needing, costs. The only prob is: have he enough money to buy? If he doesn’t want to break the law, well, let him be without the LP, but this law is only inside him, his absolutely personal&own law. So, anyway, the price for the LP is based “on a contractual basis” between collectors and not more, so such personal relations are not in the federal law-fields and so on…

If the LP is rare and expensive, I can understand such bonus-price, but will be such bonus determinate the hole price, which is already expensive? Maybe the buyer wants to listen the quality of the LP-sound before to spend his money without the risk – this is bonuce-service for him: in that way the seller doing his custom-made conversion on CD. I know by myself, that to make the conversion on CD from LP is not easy thing, so everyone must be paid for the work, he did. That’s legal.

To my mind, if the seller begins to sell his custom-made CD-copy without original LP – only that must be prohibited.

[KoolChris]

If we're all referring to the same seller (found on GEMM & Musicstack), I've found their prices to be way more than twice the price of competitors'. (Although I just randomly looked up the Olympic Runners' "Don't Let Up" LP on Musicstack, and found a "new" graded Lp for $20, and another vg+ for $144 (!!!) . -The CDR converter's was $65.)

I always assumed it to be legal, since you're in fact buying a second hand LP, whose rights have already been covered. The company charges extra to carry out on your behalf and in advance, your right to make a private back-up copy of said LP. You can also decide to turn down the backup, and only buy the original LP. So they are not peddling illegal copies of copyrighted material (which they'd be doing if they made extra copies, and sold them as a main and single item), just providing a backup service (albeit in advance) for your precious righteously owned LPs. That's what they basically claim on their site, hardly disguising the fact that part of their customer pool will never listen to the LP, and are in fact only buying the CDR:

"Every item for sale at cdXXX is a vinyl LP or single that we will acquire from one of our record dealers. We then create a CD copy, and send both to you! These are not commercial CDs.

Tired of waiting for a reissue of your favorite record on CD? Unfortunately, most recordings will never make it to CD. Through our network of record dealers, we can provide a great selection of CDRs, made from the original vinyl. Every CDR we make is a copy of your vinyl record that you are purchasing from us. cdXXX has been making happy music lovers for over five years."

There's been established businesses for years providing transfers of your private -or commercial VHS tapes to DVD. I assume the same would go for audio tapes, reel-to-reel, or vinyl-to-CD if the market were big enough. The same principle applies in every case, the backing-up of privately and personnally-owned media.

[Videoskooter]

While the above is definitely illegal I do see a possible way around this. This needs to be looked into further, but apparently it is legal to make a copy of something you own so the seller could conceivably sell you the record FIRST and then offer to do the transfer so that the sequence of events make it legal. What do you think?

Ehmmm, nope, coz' legally, when the seller has sold, he doesn't own it anymore.

The buyer can make a copy but not the seller! Right????

[QUINNY]

Correct in every aspect Videoskooter.

Owning a record does NOT give you any rights whatsoever in relation to making copies of it, except the fair use law (which was originally upheld for VHS video and I'm not too sure if it's ever been ratified for audio). Under the fair use law, you can make a back up copy of material, FOR PERSONAL USE.

[Videoskooter]

Under the fair use law, you can make a back up copy of material, FOR PERSONAL USE.

Wasn't that what I was saying? That the buyer can make a copy of the record he bought? I meant for his own use of course, not for distribution! Right?

But even under Belgian law it's doubtful. IFPI (the Belgian anti-piracy organisation) has already sued people who made cd-r's from their own collection. Their point of view: can you prove that it's for your own use? Because in reality you can always sell it!

How 'bout that!

[KoolChris]

Correct in every aspect Videoskooter.

Owning a record does NOT give you any rights whatsoever in relation to making copies of it, except the fair use law (which was originally upheld for VHS video and I'm not too sure if it's ever been ratified for audio). Under the fair use law, you can make a back up copy of material, FOR PERSONAL USE.

... and you can have that back up copy made by a third party, as long as you're not doing that to distribute it. And I'm pretty sure that third party can happen to be the seller. The seller, in this case, technically only creates the backup copy on behalf of his client, which he mails with the original medium. Remember, you can buy just the vinyl. Or, you can order the backup CDR as you order your vinyl; in which case the CDR will be made according to the standards you wish, not picked from a preexisting stock of copies available for sale...

It's possible someone's already challenged these people's right to conduct their business, and I don't see how any court could condemn it.The way I see it, their business is in full accordance with the spirit, and the letter of the law. There has to be jurisprudence available rendering this type of commerce legal, or at least tolerated. Remember, the fact you technically could use the CDR to upload it on eMule or make multiple copies of it and push the majors to bankruptcy, doesn't mean you're actually guilty of doing it. There would have to be other evidence than just a backup copy to prove you're a pirate and a fraud.

[KoolChris]

Wasn't that what I was saying? That the buyer can make a copy of the record he bought? I meant for his own use of course, not for distribution! Right?

But even under Belgian law it's doubtful. IFPI (the Belgian anti-piracy organisation) has already sued people who made cd-r's from their own collection. Their point of view: can you prove that it's for your own use? Because in reality you can always sell it!

How 'bout that!

And have they actually won? In a state of justice, it would be up to the plaintiff to prove you've illegally sold or downloaded material. Otherwise, using the same logic, they could sue anyone owning a computer for piracy and illegal downloading. It would be up to the owner to prove he hasn't, which is technically impossible... As it's technically impossible to prove CDR owners haven't made copies and sold them....

[Videoskooter]

And have they actually won?

Initially yes, but the legal discussion is still going on! The principle of the Belgian IFPI: you don't have the right to make a copy, period!!!! That's why a lot of cd's in Belgium are copy-protected. And remember the Sony-rootkit catastrophy???

[KoolChris]

Initially yes, but the legal discussion is still going on! The principle of the Belgian IFPI: you don't have the right to make a copy, period!!!! That's why a lot of cd's in Belgium are copy-protected. And remember the Sony-rootkit catastrophy???

That seems preposterous!!! It seems like a battle that cannot be won by the majors, although they're right in wanting to fight piracy, and claiming their right to their intellectual property.. The problem is, all the technology needed to make perfect copies are readily available to anyone who owns even the cheapest computer, and I don't see how they could prevent anyone from using that technology. You have no incentive buying a legal CD, because the quality will be the same as ripping it from your sister's copy, and burning it on a blank CD, which are a dime a dozen....

I have vinyl LPs from the '70s with inside sleeves telling people that making tape copies of vinyl records is killing the industry & illegal. In the '70s!!! If it were a problem then, when you had to monitor your copying process (put the needle on the record, try to press rec on the tape recorder in sync, hope the needle and the record are in good enough shape not to crackle and jump, press stop on the tape recorder at the end of the track, with the risk of cutting the end of the track during the end fade...; in any case, 5 years later, the tape would be eaten or dead)...imagine what a problem it's now, when putting a CD in your computer prompts it to start uploading to its hard disc.
So it seems they can pass all the unjust laws they want (forbidding you to use a CD or DVD as you wish once you've bought it; installing technology that prevents you from listening to your CD in your car stereo or certain CD players IS unjust), people will still pass their CDs around, and friends and family WILL copy them.

Understand me: I'm certainly not condoning piracy. I'm simply suggesting that making such technology available to the masses is probably killing the industry, but there's no going back now, because everybody HAS the technology. So they can make piracy more difficult, but not stop it.
I owned a small (music) production venture about 10 years ago; as much as I'd like to do it again, I wouldn't now, just because it seems like making and selling records is no longer a way to make money...or even just pay bills!!! It's sad, but I can only see things getting worse...

[White Raven]

So they are not peddling illegal copies of copyrighted material (which they'd be doing if they made extra copies, and sold them as a main and single item), just providing a backup service (albeit in advance) for your precious righteously owned LPs. That's what they basically claim on their site, hardly disguising the fact that part of their customer pool will never listen to the LP, and are in fact only buying the CDR

Agree!

Owning a record does NOT give you any rights whatsoever in relation to making copies of it, except the fair use law: you can make a back up copy of material, FOR PERSONAL USE.

Agree too!

The buyer can make a copy but not the seller! Right????

Yes, but today anyone is the buyer and tomorrow this anyone can become the seller…:icon_smile:


* * *

Well, let the law be the law and everyone knows how it must be. Let’s turn to reality, please. Couldn’t I ask (Let me please!:icon_rolleyes:) everyone here the only one simple question personally: “Would You buy LP + CDR copy or not?” Sorry for disturbs and thank You!

[QUINNY]

No way, no way!!!