WERE MOST DISCO RECORDS TOO LONG?

[QUINNY]

I'd be the first to admit that the standard 3 - 3 minutes 30 seconds of a 7" single was quite often not enough, but I personally have always been bored by the sheer length of most 12" releases.
As most of you will know, I was one of those jocks who'd invariably mix out of the first break, not because that's what 'pop' jocks did, but because I'd get bored otherwise. I just had to be busy and to that extent I also played various percussion instruments, electronic drums over the top of things.
By the end of my DJing days I was even mixing out of the verse before the first break (because that offered more of a challenge I guess) so that it would be continuous singing or melodic content.
Of course, there were notable exceptions that just begged to be played a little more.
I always played Cheryl Lynn's Got To Be Real all the way through as well as Michael Jackson's Thriller, Kool & The Gang's Celebration and any disco 12" that was less than 5 minutes would normally go more or less right to the end.
The one thing I absolutely loathed were the records with really padded out intros, that could be all of 2 minutes or more.
Invariably, I'd mix these in with the first minute and a half missing. I remember once though I did a radio show where I lined up adverts and station idents so that the whole intro played underneath them and the record came in beautifully just at the main theme (forget which record) and that really was a buzz. Although I was a mixing jock and rhythm was everything, I just couldn't believe 100% in it as the only important thing in a record, if that makes sense. Surely, it is the attitude that rhythm is the single most important constituent of a good dance record that has led to today's stripped down beats and ever so boring sounds? Or maybe not?
What's your take on it?

[totoman]

I understand what you mean although I feel it more with today's dance music. I have a preference for about 6 to 7 minutes in my tracks whether they are seventies or otherwise.

I have never been a DJ so never mixed tracks. I didn't mind the break in a record and the repeat verse but the chorus out used to go on forever so would be faded out on any tape compilations i made. These days I look for what I term "padding" in the tracks and edit out for cds that i make for myself. Some of the old stuff is great because so many ideas are going on. The Alec R Costandinos or Boris Midney albums come to my mind but I cannot imagine them being played in clubs because they are too long for dancing purposes (I was too young at the time but loved playing them at home).

I am a big fan of Hex Hector mixes which usually clock in at 10 mins long with 2-3 mins intro. There is usually not even a repeat verse and chorus after the break even. I chop these down to a more manageable 7 mins and miss nothing. I did this to the Dirty Vegas mix of Die Another Day by Madonna. It took me about 15 mins to do.

What I have found is today's mixers cannot be musically inspired like they were in the past, everything in the mixes runs to a formula of so many bars etc, quite a lot of the early mixes to me does not have that dullness. The extended versions will have a creativity with additional ideas etc which keeps you interested.b However there are two extended versions where I dont know why they bothered because nothing new happens:-

I Love The Nightlife - Alicia Bridges
A Little Loving - The Raes

That's my take on it anyway

toto

[paul]

While there are quite a few 12" singles that were probabaly over done ("I Got My Mind Made Up" is an example for me), most were welcome extensions to my ear.
By the way, I happen to like the 12" version of "I Love The Nightlife."

[Robbie]

This is an interesting topic because I can think of many disco records (in 12" length) that were TOO long, and sometimes want to make me skip to the next track if it's on a CD. I think Salsoul was a master of that art, and I hate to say that because I love the music from that label. Unfortunately, so many good records were somewhat tarnished by the overly-extended tendencies. "My Love Is Free" by Double Exposure is an example of that. But, I have seen a slightly shorter version of this at around 6 1/2 minutes or so, so I'm sure Salsoul found a way to make good edits when they were needed. In my opinion, a record that was WAY too long that to me is unlistenable is Inner Life's "Make It Last Forever", which came from Larry Levan's Paradise Garage CD (originally not on the extended LP that CD came from). This tune is almost 13 minutes long, and there were times when I was tempted to just stop the CD when I knew it was overdone. Other songs that suffer from this are Salsoul Orchestra's "How High", Trammps' "Disco Inferno", Inner Life's (there they go again!!) "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", and many others.

As for some of the aformentioned tracks, Alicia Bridge's "I Love The Nightlife" is excellent at 5 1/2 minutes long. It's a slightly different mix than the 7" version, and it's enjoyable throughout. Ditto for Cheryl Lynn's "Got To Be Real". I think a 12" at 5-6 minutes long can go a long way as opposed to some records that do the real thing, and wind up failing.

On the other hand, some records that are very, very long can be satisfying and doesn't wear me out. These include Donna Summer's "MacArthur Park Suite", "Love To Love You Baby", "Je T'Aime (Moi Non Plus)"; Love and Kisses' "I Found Love (Now That I Found You)", Loleatta Holloway's "Catch Me On The Rebound", El Coco's "Cocomotion", Grace Jones' "Do Or Die/Pride/Fame", Voyage's "From East To West/Point Zero/Orient Express", and many others.

[NickNack]

I guess it depends on where you were and who you were playing for. When Bette Midler said, "In this business, you're only as good as your last 2 minutes and 45 seconds", she didn't realize that 2:45 would soon be 'bad' business.

A lot of us remember buying two copies because the originals were too short. The 12" extensions were sweet and it sure seemed like the crowds were ready for more. Six or seven minutes were more than enough in the beginning.

Then came the suites --- Costandinos, Cerrone, Midney. At first, I thought this is just too much at one time. They'll either die of boredom or pass out from exhaustion. Who knew? From those 'padded' intros to the last freaking chorus, they wanted it all! :lol: I think part of it was hearing like you never heard it on the radio.

I remember putting on Romeo & Juliet (Side 2) one night and the first words I heard were, "Don't cut the ending!" It's good thing my friend, Danny, was in the booth with me because when the last 4/4 hit I was more than ready to move on. He told me "Wait!". They wanted the last 30 seconds, the 'classical' ending, kettle drums, chorus, strings and voices. I couldn't believe my eyes --- and then I got an ovation. :o

I always chalked it up to after-hours drugs but, if it worked, it worked. The majority of the crowds I played for were into "full-length" songs. AND DON'T MIX OUT ON THE BREAKS. Bitches would kill you if the cut the break. :evil: If you did cut it short, it had better be with something fierce. This changed of course when the songs became passe. "Please don't play that whole thing again." :lol: Gotta keep 'em happy.

[paul]

I guess it depends on where you were and who you were playing for.
I always chalked it up to after-hours drugs but, if it worked, it worked. The majority of the crowds I played for were into "full-length" songs. AND DON'T MIX OUT ON THE BREAKS. Bitches would kill you if the cut the break. :evil: If you did cut it short, it had better be with something fierce. This changed of course when the songs became passe. "Please don't play that whole thing again." :lol: Gotta keep 'em happy.

Nicky,
you sound like my kinda dj. Their were some songs like "Dance With You" you best to not mix out on the breaks. If so you better make sure it was def mix and you'd better mix the break back in.

[Nano]

I always played Cheryl Lynn's Got To Be Real all the way through as well as Michael Jackson's Thriller, Kool & The Gang's Celebration and any disco 12" that was less than 5 minutes would normally go more or less right to the end.

It's funny but you mention 3 songs made unlistenable by repeated playing. Even being a Kool & The Gang fan, I think "Celebration" is one of their lowest points in the band's offering on those days. I'd take Nick's way and play the least possible fraction of them. (But of course it's my humble opinion... I won't make Quinny-like quotes like "you're way wrong" or "listen to me, I have 30 years in the music business" :D )

Surely, it is the attitude that rhythm is the single most important constituent of a good dance record that has led to today's stripped down beats and ever so boring sounds? Or maybe not?

Well, the fact is that rhythm IS (and always was) the most important part of any dance record. If it has no rhythm, you can't dance to it.
About the stripped-down sound, note that many soul and funk fans think disco was a stripped-down version of those genres. Then, as a disco lover I myself thought house was a stripped-down version of disco... And so on and so forth.

The 2-minute intros: yes, they tend to be boring. I remember hearing the new songs CD in "History" of Michael Jackson and realising EVERY song had a 2 or even 3 minutes intro! Certainly it was absurd.
I also remember a Marky thread where people agreed the Tom Moulton versions of the "Philadelphia Classics" double LP were too long, compared to the originals.
But when it's well done... Listen to "At Her Majesty's Secret Service" by Propellerheads. That 2-minute intro is probably the best I ever heard in a modern dance record. How could you cut it?
Some disco songs I like to hear in its entire length:
-"Souvenirs" (Voyage)
-"I wanna be your lover" (Prince)
-"Let's groove" (Earth, Wind & Fire): one of the reasons why I voted it number one in Bernie's poll was how the groove is sustained during the whole track, right to the last second, and then you want it to last longer!
-"Last dance" (Donna Summer)
-"Dyin' to be dancin'" (Empress): the 12' is way better!
and many others...
Plus, a funk classic: "Papa don't take no mess" by James Brown. Like 15 minutes long, and not a second wasted.

[QUINNY]

Nano thanks for not getting personal. I'm really getting pissed off at being constantly mis-quoted.

[markydefad]

I have nothing of great import to add to this discussion, but I guess about 6 minutes is my ideal time for a record. I know a minimum of 5 minutes was always my cut-off when looking for a version on an LP. If it was over 5 minutes on the LP, I'd buy it--if it was less, I'd look for the 12". I always thought I got more bang for my buck by buying the LP. Not always the wisest decision in retrospect. :roll: But, I had a limited budget and thought there might be some other gems on those LPs. Sometimes there were, sometimes not. Live and learn.

[PierreConstantin]

Generally, the side-long songs are too long and repetitive, Santa Esmeralda's A-sides and «Here comes that sound» by Love De-Luxe being the worse. This one is an excellent song but with 16:50 it's way too long : during the last 5 min. the girls repeat the same thing over and over. Aargh! The US edit with 8:50 is much better -and besides it has some instrumental parts not on the 16:50 lp version!

[Salsoul1975]

The US edit with 8:50 is much better -and besides it has some instrumental parts not on the 16:50 lp version!

Good call. HCTSA in its edited 8:50 version was long enough to satisfy. I thought the extended 12" of Donna Summer's "Walk Away" could've been extended a minute from its original 4:29 LP length to include the "I'm gonna get over you" lines and that's it. One thing that is very interesting about Donna's 12"s is that I don't think they were all that great. The only time Casablanca scored a home run with a Donna 12" was the slightly extended "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls" medley and the 7:33 promo 12" of "On The Radio", which were superb. "Dim All The Lights" was an abomination as a 7:12 12" (loops of the first two minutes of a song to stretch it out to over seven or more minutes never works). I even think "I Feel Love" at 8:10 was a bit too long and repetitive. The 5:55 LP version was just right.

[Cdnbob]

This story reminds me of the time when an old roommate of mind loved the song "You Dropped A Bomb On Me" by the Gap Band. He only knew the single version but wanted a longer 12" version, so off we went to buy the 12". We got to the store, found the 12" and the first thing he asked was if this was the correct version. "Of course it is", I replied trying to sound all confident. Well he pays for the record, we get home, he puts it on and it ends up being an 13 minute version of the song! Boy was he disappointed. He later told me that he was sick of that record after 5 or 6 minutes. :icon_razz:

So yes, there have been some disco songs that go on far too long. I can see a music suite being 10-18 minutes but a single song, no! Its waaay too long and too boring. I find after about 6 or so minutes, I get get bored and am ready to mix the song into something else. Plus I've never been a fan of the songs that have like a 3 or 4 minute intro before they ever get to the actual meat of the song. I'm like, "alright already, lets get this song underway!" So I'd have to agree with a lot of what the others have said before this that personally I think around 5-7 minutes is the ideal length for a disco song unless its a suite. After that, who cares.

But there are exceptions to that rule. I was often known to create a 12-14 minute version of "You Make Me Feel Mighty Real" by Sylvester by mixing two copies together to make an extended version. But like I say, there are exceptions to the rule.

[BrunoRepublic]

Kind of odd to be reviving a thread that's six years old, but here's my take.

The first thing to factor in is that dancing to a song is quite different to just listening to it. Time seems to go by faster when you're dancing and having a good time as opposed to just sitting around and wanting to be entertained. On a personal note, I loved dancing to the 15-minute version of "The Bomb" by The Bucketheads, but I'd always use the 8-minute edit when I was just listening to a mixtape (or playlist as it is now).

That aside, the how long-is-too-long depends on how the song evolves. If the song continues to bring in new elements or present them in different ways, it can usually hold my interest for an entire side. If it's just the same idea repeated over and over again (or even the same three minutes re-edited to double that) I'll get bored rather quickly.

The worst are the 8-minute songs where they've obviously run out of ideas after the three-minute mark and they're just dragging it out. Lipps Inc's "Funkytown" is probably the most famous example.

[kdavid13]

That's why I was always entertained by Patrick Juvet's sidelong version of I love America.

But then again I was always a fan of Jacques Morali's productions [especially from this era] and Casablanca.

Paul Jabara's Disco Wedding suite is another guilty pleasure.

No wonder these days I'm so much into underground experimental electronic music !!!

[srg]

BrunoRepublic has a good point: when you're on the dancefloor the dynamics and length of the song changes...sometimes you DO want more of your favorite tune. I read somewhere that a newspaper reporter once quipped: "How can you review this music (disco) while you're SITTING DOWN??":icon_razz::icon_exclaim:
While I will swoon for the 15-minutes of Romeo&Juliet, Hills of Katmandu, and At Midnight, I will limit myself to 6 minutes of Funkytown, Disco Inferno, and If My Friends Could See Me Now...

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

The first thing to factor in is that dancing to a song is quite different to just listening to it. Time seems to go by faster when you're dancing...

That aside, the how long-is-too-long depends on how the song evolves...

Both of those statements, succinctly answer the question.
But, might I add too, the change of the times...

When "Disco-versions" were a novelty, the length didn't matter much. Soon, you had more, and more full-side epic-length tracks. That didn't necessarily make them much better, though. (My earliest example: THP Orchestra's "Two Hot For Love". The original Canadian 12" was perfect. The US LP version just went on and on and on an on... Even the addition of lyrics, didn't make the marathon-length version any better than the original. After the 8-10 minute mark, it was just...longer.)

Then, labels started to release edited-down 12" versions (USA European Connection, Amant, Costandinos' Syncophonic Orchestra, Boris Midney..) when the full-side concept was starting to wear-thin, on the dance-floors.

When I worked for Hot Tracks, a few of the Hot Classics issues I picked for editing/re-mixing, were songs previously done on DiscoNet. But DiscoNet came at it from the mindset of "Let's edit it out as looooong as possible!", with no regard to how monotonous the version would become. "Too much of a good thing", if you know what I mean.

The Producers at Hot Tracks questioned me, a few times, on whether my mixes were "long enough?". My response was always that I'd usually do an 8 minute mix, using all my ideas. Then sit back and listen to it from a club-goer's point-of-view. (Particularly, one who was not on Tina!) Was I starting to get bored? Okay...cut that part down. And repeat that process until I had a version that was as long as possible, but still, structurally tight and interesting. I always gave longer, more gradual mix-in and mix-out elements for the DJ's, than most post-production editor/remixers. But, when it came to the meat of the song, dance-floor attention span was always my final criteria.

On the flip-side of the argument: "Come Into My Heart / Good Lovin'" suffered terribly from being edited-down. It was so perfectly crafted, that anything less than it's entirety, would be a crime. So, there are exceptions to every argument.
But, for the most part, I'll say 7 minutes is the limit for manipulating 24 tracks, to me.

[remicks]

*****

Kind of odd to be reviving a thread that's six years old, but here's my take.

.

Quinny had a knack at introducing provocative topics many still worthy of ongoing discussion....

You make good points Bruno ( do we no longer use Graham?? ...I miss your sexy fingers photo by the way !! :icon_redface: )
Music on the dancefloor is an entirely different experience than listening privately.

This "too long" idea is interesting to me . Today I listen most closely while driving ... especially longer distances and I enjoy those longer songs with time to focus on their nuances ... provided as you say Bruno ..... they are worthy in composition and not just extended versions for the sake of being extended. I think longer compositions are more enjoyable now ....when a person can actually pay attention while listening to them as opposed to being worn out by them on the dancefloor.

While the long intros may at times seem aggravating now ....at the time they were an important tool for the dj who wanted to do overlays and wanted to provide time for the dancefloor to adjust ... some folks leaving some folks climbing on board ...and providing move time for some folks to get the courage to ask that certain someone if they wanted to join them on the dance floor.

In my DJ stints ... I always opted for the shortest amount of a song I could get away with . I always wanted them wanting more ....not less. I liked suggesting the feeling that there wasn't enough time in the night to play songs beyond seven minutes and keeping the songs moving added to the energy. Songs on the wane .... cut them short ....songs being introduced ... keep them short too. Only the hottest songs of the moment got (perhaps) ...full play . (This method reflected my own restless personality too I think.) Besides if you are going to let a song play for 10-fifteen minutes ... you better be ready to follow it up with something really hot or that now tired dance floor is going to empty and you'll need new recruits.
I felt that letting songs play on and on signaled a lazy or unskilled DJ. I liked a club where you sensed the DJ was working his ass off where the mixes throughout the night were just as important as the songs themselves.


*****

[BrunoRepublic]

On the flip-side of the argument: "Come Into My Heart / Good Lovin'" suffered terribly from being edited-down. It was so perfectly crafted, that anything less than it's entirety, would be a crime. So, there are exceptions to every argument.

It's funny you should mention that one, because that's a track that I've given serious thought to editing down on my own. To me, it seems that the track goes up to incredible highs near the beginning and end, and then just does nothing for a looong time in the middle. I know, I know, this track laid the blueprint for deep house, but that's a genre I've never cared for either. I'd much rather sit through the entire 16 minutes of the LP version of "Two Hot For Love!", off-key vocals and all...

When I think of senselessly-extended tracks, the two that come to my mind are Wardell Piper's "Super Sweet" (a good song, but with a 9-minute repetitive 12" mix, I was sick of it by the time I'd heard it once!) and Barbara Pennington's "24 Hours a Day". I know Marky loves that one, but honestly, it sounds to me like they just copy-and-pasted the 3-minute version over and over again... and I'm usually fond of Ian Levine's longer tracks, like the 16-minute version of James Wells' "My Claim To Fame".

Costandinos was the master of the side-long suite though. Even if he was just repeating the same musical phrases, he kept bringing in new instruments, solos, ad-libs, finding new ways to keep things interesting. There may be a lot of repetition, but no four bars are identical.

Of course, nowadays it's typical for dance tracks to be far, far more repetitive, even more so since it's mostly electronics and software, and you will have entire phrases that are identical-to-the-sample that repeat several times in a song. Then again, it seems that most stuff now is designed to be DJ fodder, with 3-minute intros and outros and maybe about 4 minutes of material that will actually be heard on its own.

[BrunoRepublic]

Quinny had a knack at introducing provocative topics many still worthy of ongoing discussion....

He certainly did...

You make good points Bruno ( do we no longer use Graham?? ...I miss your sexy fingers photo by the way !! :icon_redface: )

Well, my name is actually Bruce, but I'll answer to Bruno as well. :)

[Salsoul1975]

Barbara Pennington's "Twenty-Four Hours A Day"....good call. That was a 12" that, when I heard it for the first time, I couldn't wait for it to end.

[Disco Funk]

I think the genre progressed, and ultimately died, because songs were extended beyond the 3 or 4 minute radio-friendly format. In the beginning, it gave producers and artists the ability to expand upon musical ideas within the same song, and I guess it was easier for them since they didn't have to spend time coming up with 11 songs on an LP. Plus it created an industry of 'secondary artists' who were the remixers and DJs who played with the music and sometimes reinvented the same song.

Some songs are painfully long and some are painfully short. I guess it all depends on your musical taste and what you are expecting to get out of a song. I find songs longer than 12 minutes do become less interesting. But even short/long songs can feel too long, like the last half of 'Everybody Have a Good Time' by Archie Bell & The Drells, which I feel drags on. The USA-European Connection 'Come Into My Heart'/'Good Lovin' is more like two 6 minute songs, and there's so much going on within that 'medley', editing it down feels like you're losing out too much.

So that's my long winded 'no' to the question Quinny posed.

Disco Funk

[KBallenger53]

NO WAY JOSE!!! Let's all remember 1 thing, extended music was going on long before disco hit the scene. Who was the one who started it? MR. DYNAMITE, THE AMAZING MR. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, SOUL BROTHER NUMBER ONE: JAMES BROWN & THE FAMOUS FLAMES!!!

If you have the "Live @ the Apollo: Vol. II" album from 1967, listen to the extended version of "There was a Time". It was the original disco record. It's clocked @ 120 bpm's, & it's more than 7 minutes long!!! To this day, you can still turn a party with that record. So, no way were disco records too long!!!

'NUFF SAID

[KBallenger53]

As a matter of fact, does anybody remember: "E2 E4" by Manuel Gottsheng? (forgive me if misspelled his name):icon_rolleyes: The total time for that song if you play both sides continually is almost 1 hr!!! But it gave you time to blend in many different cuts with it....a little trick I picked up from DJ Tony Humphries!!!

'Nuff Said

[Cdnbob]

Originally Posted by remicks
Quinny had a knack at introducing provocative topics many still worthy of ongoing discussion....

He certainly did...

Did I miss something? Has Quinny left the board?

[BrunoRepublic]

As a matter of fact, does anybody remember: "E2 E4" by Manuel Gottsheng? (forgive me if misspelled his name):icon_rolleyes: The total time for that song if you play both sides continually is almost 1 hr!!! But it gave you time to blend in many different cuts with it....a little trick I picked up from DJ Tony Humphries!!!

'Nuff Said

The unabridged version of Manuel Göttsching's E2-E4 is just under an hour (the original LP edited out about ten minutes between sides 1 and 2, whereas the CD reissue that came a few years later plays the full track uninterrupted). However, it wasn't intended to be a dance track by any stretch of the imagination. The kick drum on the track is mixed so low that it would be hard to dance to it in its original form. It's really an hour-long improvised sequencer/guitar jam that Göttsching recorded direct to 2-track so he could have something to listen to on his walkman.

Now, the song was later sampled/re-edited/remixed into a dance hit under the name Sueno Latino, but that's another story.