WERE MOST DISCO RECORDS TOO LONG?

[QUINNY]

I'd be the first to admit that the standard 3 - 3 minutes 30 seconds of a 7" single was quite often not enough, but I personally have always been bored by the sheer length of most 12" releases.
As most of you will know, I was one of those jocks who'd invariably mix out of the first break, not because that's what 'pop' jocks did, but because I'd get bored otherwise. I just had to be busy and to that extent I also played various percussion instruments, electronic drums over the top of things.
By the end of my DJing days I was even mixing out of the verse before the first break (because that offered more of a challenge I guess) so that it would be continuous singing or melodic content.
Of course, there were notable exceptions that just begged to be played a little more.
I always played Cheryl Lynn's Got To Be Real all the way through as well as Michael Jackson's Thriller, Kool & The Gang's Celebration and any disco 12" that was less than 5 minutes would normally go more or less right to the end.
The one thing I absolutely loathed were the records with really padded out intros, that could be all of 2 minutes or more.
Invariably, I'd mix these in with the first minute and a half missing. I remember once though I did a radio show where I lined up adverts and station idents so that the whole intro played underneath them and the record came in beautifully just at the main theme (forget which record) and that really was a buzz. Although I was a mixing jock and rhythm was everything, I just couldn't believe 100% in it as the only important thing in a record, if that makes sense. Surely, it is the attitude that rhythm is the single most important constituent of a good dance record that has led to today's stripped down beats and ever so boring sounds? Or maybe not?
What's your take on it?

[totoman]

I understand what you mean although I feel it more with today's dance music. I have a preference for about 6 to 7 minutes in my tracks whether they are seventies or otherwise.

I have never been a DJ so never mixed tracks. I didn't mind the break in a record and the repeat verse but the chorus out used to go on forever so would be faded out on any tape compilations i made. These days I look for what I term "padding" in the tracks and edit out for cds that i make for myself. Some of the old stuff is great because so many ideas are going on. The Alec R Costandinos or Boris Midney albums come to my mind but I cannot imagine them being played in clubs because they are too long for dancing purposes (I was too young at the time but loved playing them at home).

I am a big fan of Hex Hector mixes which usually clock in at 10 mins long with 2-3 mins intro. There is usually not even a repeat verse and chorus after the break even. I chop these down to a more manageable 7 mins and miss nothing. I did this to the Dirty Vegas mix of Die Another Day by Madonna. It took me about 15 mins to do.

What I have found is today's mixers cannot be musically inspired like they were in the past, everything in the mixes runs to a formula of so many bars etc, quite a lot of the early mixes to me does not have that dullness. The extended versions will have a creativity with additional ideas etc which keeps you interested.b However there are two extended versions where I dont know why they bothered because nothing new happens:-

I Love The Nightlife - Alicia Bridges
A Little Loving - The Raes

That's my take on it anyway

toto

[paul]

While there are quite a few 12" singles that were probabaly over done ("I Got My Mind Made Up" is an example for me), most were welcome extensions to my ear.
By the way, I happen to like the 12" version of "I Love The Nightlife."

[Robbie]

This is an interesting topic because I can think of many disco records (in 12" length) that were TOO long, and sometimes want to make me skip to the next track if it's on a CD. I think Salsoul was a master of that art, and I hate to say that because I love the music from that label. Unfortunately, so many good records were somewhat tarnished by the overly-extended tendencies. "My Love Is Free" by Double Exposure is an example of that. But, I have seen a slightly shorter version of this at around 6 1/2 minutes or so, so I'm sure Salsoul found a way to make good edits when they were needed. In my opinion, a record that was WAY too long that to me is unlistenable is Inner Life's "Make It Last Forever", which came from Larry Levan's Paradise Garage CD (originally not on the extended LP that CD came from). This tune is almost 13 minutes long, and there were times when I was tempted to just stop the CD when I knew it was overdone. Other songs that suffer from this are Salsoul Orchestra's "How High", Trammps' "Disco Inferno", Inner Life's (there they go again!!) "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", and many others.

As for some of the aformentioned tracks, Alicia Bridge's "I Love The Nightlife" is excellent at 5 1/2 minutes long. It's a slightly different mix than the 7" version, and it's enjoyable throughout. Ditto for Cheryl Lynn's "Got To Be Real". I think a 12" at 5-6 minutes long can go a long way as opposed to some records that do the real thing, and wind up failing.

On the other hand, some records that are very, very long can be satisfying and doesn't wear me out. These include Donna Summer's "MacArthur Park Suite", "Love To Love You Baby", "Je T'Aime (Moi Non Plus)"; Love and Kisses' "I Found Love (Now That I Found You)", Loleatta Holloway's "Catch Me On The Rebound", El Coco's "Cocomotion", Grace Jones' "Do Or Die/Pride/Fame", Voyage's "From East To West/Point Zero/Orient Express", and many others.

[NickNack]

I guess it depends on where you were and who you were playing for. When Bette Midler said, "In this business, you're only as good as your last 2 minutes and 45 seconds", she didn't realize that 2:45 would soon be 'bad' business.

A lot of us remember buying two copies because the originals were too short. The 12" extensions were sweet and it sure seemed like the crowds were ready for more. Six or seven minutes were more than enough in the beginning.

Then came the suites --- Costandinos, Cerrone, Midney. At first, I thought this is just too much at one time. They'll either die of boredom or pass out from exhaustion. Who knew? From those 'padded' intros to the last freaking chorus, they wanted it all! :lol: I think part of it was hearing like you never heard it on the radio.

I remember putting on Romeo & Juliet (Side 2) one night and the first words I heard were, "Don't cut the ending!" It's good thing my friend, Danny, was in the booth with me because when the last 4/4 hit I was more than ready to move on. He told me "Wait!". They wanted the last 30 seconds, the 'classical' ending, kettle drums, chorus, strings and voices. I couldn't believe my eyes --- and then I got an ovation. :o

I always chalked it up to after-hours drugs but, if it worked, it worked. The majority of the crowds I played for were into "full-length" songs. AND DON'T MIX OUT ON THE BREAKS. Bitches would kill you if the cut the break. :evil: If you did cut it short, it had better be with something fierce. This changed of course when the songs became passe. "Please don't play that whole thing again." :lol: Gotta keep 'em happy.

[paul]

I guess it depends on where you were and who you were playing for.
I always chalked it up to after-hours drugs but, if it worked, it worked. The majority of the crowds I played for were into "full-length" songs. AND DON'T MIX OUT ON THE BREAKS. Bitches would kill you if the cut the break. :evil: If you did cut it short, it had better be with something fierce. This changed of course when the songs became passe. "Please don't play that whole thing again." :lol: Gotta keep 'em happy.

Nicky,
you sound like my kinda dj. Their were some songs like "Dance With You" you best to not mix out on the breaks. If so you better make sure it was def mix and you'd better mix the break back in.

[Nano]

I always played Cheryl Lynn's Got To Be Real all the way through as well as Michael Jackson's Thriller, Kool & The Gang's Celebration and any disco 12" that was less than 5 minutes would normally go more or less right to the end.

It's funny but you mention 3 songs made unlistenable by repeated playing. Even being a Kool & The Gang fan, I think "Celebration" is one of their lowest points in the band's offering on those days. I'd take Nick's way and play the least possible fraction of them. (But of course it's my humble opinion... I won't make Quinny-like quotes like "you're way wrong" or "listen to me, I have 30 years in the music business" :D )

Surely, it is the attitude that rhythm is the single most important constituent of a good dance record that has led to today's stripped down beats and ever so boring sounds? Or maybe not?

Well, the fact is that rhythm IS (and always was) the most important part of any dance record. If it has no rhythm, you can't dance to it.
About the stripped-down sound, note that many soul and funk fans think disco was a stripped-down version of those genres. Then, as a disco lover I myself thought house was a stripped-down version of disco... And so on and so forth.

The 2-minute intros: yes, they tend to be boring. I remember hearing the new songs CD in "History" of Michael Jackson and realising EVERY song had a 2 or even 3 minutes intro! Certainly it was absurd.
I also remember a Marky thread where people agreed the Tom Moulton versions of the "Philadelphia Classics" double LP were too long, compared to the originals.
But when it's well done... Listen to "At Her Majesty's Secret Service" by Propellerheads. That 2-minute intro is probably the best I ever heard in a modern dance record. How could you cut it?
Some disco songs I like to hear in its entire length:
-"Souvenirs" (Voyage)
-"I wanna be your lover" (Prince)
-"Let's groove" (Earth, Wind & Fire): one of the reasons why I voted it number one in Bernie's poll was how the groove is sustained during the whole track, right to the last second, and then you want it to last longer!
-"Last dance" (Donna Summer)
-"Dyin' to be dancin'" (Empress): the 12' is way better!
and many others...
Plus, a funk classic: "Papa don't take no mess" by James Brown. Like 15 minutes long, and not a second wasted.

[QUINNY]

Nano thanks for not getting personal. I'm really getting pissed off at being constantly mis-quoted.

[markydefad]

I have nothing of great import to add to this discussion, but I guess about 6 minutes is my ideal time for a record. I know a minimum of 5 minutes was always my cut-off when looking for a version on an LP. If it was over 5 minutes on the LP, I'd buy it--if it was less, I'd look for the 12". I always thought I got more bang for my buck by buying the LP. Not always the wisest decision in retrospect. :roll: But, I had a limited budget and thought there might be some other gems on those LPs. Sometimes there were, sometimes not. Live and learn.

[PierreConstantin]

Generally, the side-long songs are too long and repetitive, Santa Esmeralda's A-sides and «Here comes that sound» by Love De-Luxe being the worse. This one is an excellent song but with 16:50 it's way too long : during the last 5 min. the girls repeat the same thing over and over. Aargh! The US edit with 8:50 is much better -and besides it has some instrumental parts not on the 16:50 lp version!

[Salsoul1975]

The US edit with 8:50 is much better -and besides it has some instrumental parts not on the 16:50 lp version!

Good call. HCTSA in its edited 8:50 version was long enough to satisfy. I thought the extended 12" of Donna Summer's "Walk Away" could've been extended a minute from its original 4:29 LP length to include the "I'm gonna get over you" lines and that's it. One thing that is very interesting about Donna's 12"s is that I don't think they were all that great. The only time Casablanca scored a home run with a Donna 12" was the slightly extended "Hot Stuff/Bad Girls" medley and the 7:33 promo 12" of "On The Radio", which were superb. "Dim All The Lights" was an abomination as a 7:12 12" (loops of the first two minutes of a song to stretch it out to over seven or more minutes never works). I even think "I Feel Love" at 8:10 was a bit too long and repetitive. The 5:55 LP version was just right.

[Cdnbob]

This story reminds me of the time when an old roommate of mind loved the song "You Dropped A Bomb On Me" by the Gap Band. He only knew the single version but wanted a longer 12" version, so off we went to buy the 12". We got to the store, found the 12" and the first thing he asked was if this was the correct version. "Of course it is", I replied trying to sound all confident. Well he pays for the record, we get home, he puts it on and it ends up being an 13 minute version of the song! Boy was he disappointed. He later told me that he was sick of that record after 5 or 6 minutes. :icon_razz:

So yes, there have been some disco songs that go on far too long. I can see a music suite being 10-18 minutes but a single song, no! Its waaay too long and too boring. I find after about 6 or so minutes, I get get bored and am ready to mix the song into something else. Plus I've never been a fan of the songs that have like a 3 or 4 minute intro before they ever get to the actual meat of the song. I'm like, "alright already, lets get this song underway!" So I'd have to agree with a lot of what the others have said before this that personally I think around 5-7 minutes is the ideal length for a disco song unless its a suite. After that, who cares.

But there are exceptions to that rule. I was often known to create a 12-14 minute version of "You Make Me Feel Mighty Real" by Sylvester by mixing two copies together to make an extended version. But like I say, there are exceptions to the rule.

[BrunoRepublic]

Kind of odd to be reviving a thread that's six years old, but here's my take.

The first thing to factor in is that dancing to a song is quite different to just listening to it. Time seems to go by faster when you're dancing and having a good time as opposed to just sitting around and wanting to be entertained. On a personal note, I loved dancing to the 15-minute version of "The Bomb" by The Bucketheads, but I'd always use the 8-minute edit when I was just listening to a mixtape (or playlist as it is now).

That aside, the how long-is-too-long depends on how the song evolves. If the song continues to bring in new elements or present them in different ways, it can usually hold my interest for an entire side. If it's just the same idea repeated over and over again (or even the same three minutes re-edited to double that) I'll get bored rather quickly.

The worst are the 8-minute songs where they've obviously run out of ideas after the three-minute mark and they're just dragging it out. Lipps Inc's "Funkytown" is probably the most famous example.

[kdavid13]

That's why I was always entertained by Patrick Juvet's sidelong version of I love America.

But then again I was always a fan of Jacques Morali's productions [especially from this era] and Casablanca.

Paul Jabara's Disco Wedding suite is another guilty pleasure.

No wonder these days I'm so much into underground experimental electronic music !!!

[srg]

BrunoRepublic has a good point: when you're on the dancefloor the dynamics and length of the song changes...sometimes you DO want more of your favorite tune. I read somewhere that a newspaper reporter once quipped: "How can you review this music (disco) while you're SITTING DOWN??":icon_razz::icon_exclaim:
While I will swoon for the 15-minutes of Romeo&Juliet, Hills of Katmandu, and At Midnight, I will limit myself to 6 minutes of Funkytown, Disco Inferno, and If My Friends Could See Me Now...