Question to RARE Northern soul fans!

[wow27]

Here's a question to all you Northern soul fans/obsessives! :roll:

How RARE is RARE :o

Now let's try and elaborate on this, just how RARE is RARE??? Is it RARE to such an extent that it is RARE or is just so RARE that it simply is RARE?
RARE to what extent i ask myself?
Maybe just so God damn RARE that it simply does'nt exist? but then it becomes RARER than RARE-now that is RARE! :lol:

[BrunoRepublic]

"Rare" is one of the most mis-used terms out there. A lot of the so-called "rare" records aren't really rare at all -- there are many copies around -- just not enough to meet the demand for them.

"sought-after" or "valued" would be much more appropriate terms. There are plenty of records for which there might be less than 10 copies left in existence -- but they're still worthless, because nobody wants them.

Examples: I have three items that would fit the commonly-used definition of "rare" -- i.e., they're worth a lot. The 12" of "Sun... Sun... Sun..." by Jâ-Kki, and copies of Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music" and Sex Pistols' "Never Mind The Bollocks" on 8-track.

Yet, there are actually hundreds of copies of all three of these items in existence. All were quite successful in their day and sold by the thousands. They're considered "rare" because there are many more people trying to obtain them than there are copies for sale, and some of these people are willing to pay crazy sums of cash for them.

Meanwhile, I have loads of obscure German electronic LPs, long-forgotten disco 7" records, and boxes of other 8-tracks for which there are probably only a handful left in existence. These would actually be much more "rare", but I doubt you'd ever see them described as such, because their net worth is zero.

[wow27]

Maybe there are various definitions to the word 'Rare' and perhaps your description of rare is true - however, i view 'rare' in the case of music as a song or track that is very hard to get hold of and you would have to scour the deepest corners of the earth to find it (i thought circles dont have corners?), anyhow,even then you would be lucky if you found it!
For example you may have a tune that is released on a test pressing white label only - say, 20 copies only! 15 copies are stored in a warehouse somewhere and the warehouse burns down in a fire! So there are only 5 copies left somewhere and they could be anywhere in the world! now that would be my definition of 'rare'! :roll:
Just thinking about a senario like that is enough to give you a headache! : :x

[BrunoRepublic]

For example you may have a tune that is released on a test pressing white label only - say, 20 copies only! 15 copies are stored in a warehouse somewhere and the warehouse burns down in a fire! So there are only 5 copies left somewhere and they could be anywhere in the world! now that would be my definition of 'rare'! :roll:
Just thinking about a senario like that is enough to give you a headache! : :x

One of the most valued records in the world (some Doo-Wop single, can't remember the details) is the result of a similar situation. The master tape and acetate were destroyed in a fire, only three test copies were made, and one of them is broken.

Actually, one particular record that I'd love to hear is like this as well -- early test copies of Vangelis' bizarro 1980 LP "See You Later" had two tracks that were dropped from the final release, never to appear anywhere else.

Then there's Jean-Michel Jarre's "Music For Supermarkets" -- he recorded the album as a protest against commercialism in the music industry, pressed one copy, auctioned it off for charity, and then destroyed the master tapes. But at least he let them play it over the radio first.

[DISCODISK]

GRAHAM, a few examples of rare northern
frank wilson "do i love you [indeed i do]-soul-$24000
andantes"like a nightmare"-v.i.p-$6000
the inspirations"no one else can take your place"-breakthrough$6000
should any of these come up for sale in the u.k they would be sold in seconds.
the frank wilson would probibly sell for double that for two reasons ony two exist,one in lancashire u.k the other in scotland,and it was one of the best motown dancers ever made[even a 79 u.k reissue that sold well would cost $60!]
considering its rarity i actually think thats a bargain!
in the early 70s as i kid i saw a copy of copy of "cigarette ashes"-jimmy conwell-mirwood sell for $120 the mid 70s saw a copy of "seven day lover"-james fountain-peechtree sell for $250 people gasped in horror as that was 2 months wages more for some people, today $500 dosnt buy much at all.
i wheel and deal in northern records and there ARE plenty of people waiting to buy them and the rarest record you have for sale sells first as some of these things nowdays are so rarely seen people think this way "if i dont grab this now ill never get it" also internet auctions are damaging record collecting,theres a frenzy going on pushing up prices more e.g i put a $25 dollar record up [the going price] some guy bid $60 he paid and that was fine, a couple of days later it appeared on a sales list at $25 sure enough i got an e.mail "that record you sold me for $60"....
im still trying to explain to him that i never sold it to him for that price he BID that price! but be sure the next time thats listed on a sales list it will be $60
you are right saying records are being hyped as rare and they arnt an example of this is ace spectrum "dont send nobody else" sells here for about $100 even with the big demand here it should be $30 tops!
dont dismiss your 7" collection as worthless you might be surprised! the northern collectors go for 7" over 12" e.g
"janice" skip mahoney-salsoul 12"=$50 7"=$100
"my babys got e.s.p" four below zero-roulette 12"=$60 7" $100+
and double on p&p :o

[DISCODISK]

i forgot to add a couple of years ago frank wilson was here to do a gig,for a joke a northern soul mag photographed him with one of the copies of the record in his hand for the front cover frank was smiling with a headline "frank wilson turns up in london with a box full of do i love you" kenny burrel the guy who paid the $24000 i believe had a heart attack :lol:

[QUINNY]

DISCODISK:
Very interesting but.................... :lol:

[DISCODISK]

QUINNY you ruined the other topic now are you going to try to do the same here you are so SAD why do you come to this site you obviously know nothing about music and care for it even less,people come here to meet likeminded people,unfortunately they have to meet you along the way WHAT IS IT WITH YOU ? ive said it before and ill say it again you bore me to death.you are so f***** DULL

[QUINNY]

DISCODISK: Really, I find it interesting how obsessive some people get to be and that records can change hands for such huge sums. I found it interesting that they reckon 150,000 Northern Soul type records have been released (although it's a figure I find hard to believe; even over 50 years that would be 3,000 per year average). I do not contribute any further 'cos I realize that you are soooooo knowledgeable.
I was merely letting you know that I'm reading the thread, to offer some kind of acknowledgement, but if you feel this ruins the thread then that's your problem.

[Bernie]

DISCODISK,

I understand your frustration and you made your point, but let's not sink to, "you are so f***** DULL." This goes for everyone else-let's keep our cool.

Quinny,

If you have nothing productive to add to an otherwise informative thread, then please wait to respond until you have something.

[wow27]

It never ceases to amaze me how fickle and fragile human nature really is these day's! I'm not having a go at the guy's above in specific - just using their messages as a prime example of how easily fickle human nature is these days! :roll:
What started out a a fairly harmless, inoffensive thread about 'rareness' has somehow escalated into world war 3 and warranted the intervention of Bernie the site owner to calm it down! how&why????? :evil:
It really never ceases to amaze me! & maybe we should have a new section on this site focusing on why human beings always tend to bring out the worst in each other! unbelievable! :cry:

[BrunoRepublic]

Well, there are some people who get a kick out of antagonizing others. I guess these people feel rather powerless in their own lives, so they try to get this wherever else they can. There are people who despite being quite ignorant or uninformed, will post as if they know the final word on everything, and often don't take it well when someone else contradicts them by posting correct information. Then there are some people who, while not deliberately malicious, are quite thoughtless and post without any tact or sensitivity, and then are astonished and outraged when others do the same to them. And then there are some people who have an agenda and will focus only on that, regardless of how (ir)relevant it is to the forum in question. You will see these things on *any* public forum. And non-moderated ones are infinitely worse -- the flame-wars, spam, and pointless profanity will quickly drown out any real discussion. People suck. It's just the way it is.

Getting back to your original post. I too, agree that something that is "rare" is something that is nearly impossible to find, regardless of whether its worth $1 or $100,000. However, based on what I've seen, this is not the definition that most others use.

[wow27]

Maybe the definition of 'rare' is a combination of both! :o
It is near enough impossible to find and yet even if it is found,it is proberbly priced out of peoples reach! So in both cases it is impossible to get hold of! :x However,i personally would opt for the first definition more so than the second! :)

[zeca azevedo]

Quinny,

If you have nothing productive to add to an otherwise informative thread, then please wait to respond until you have something.

Hey Bernie,

wise words, my friend, wise words :D

zeca azevedo, the only living boy in cucamonga

[QUINNY]

Fast forward 1000 years when all but a few disco 12" records have been destroyed, lost or just given up the ghost; and by the way all known masters were destroyed because anti-disco fundamentalists eradicated all inferior records and artefacts in 2109.
In an auction room somewhere, there is a pristine copy of a disco 12" from 1979, the only copy in existence. It sells for a zillion dollars 'cos of its rarity and superb condition. That record is 'Ring My Bell'.

It could happen.

[zeca azevedo]

Hi,

what's wrong with RING MY BELL? Nothing, at least for me. We discussed this song a few months ago - all haters and lovers had their chance to talk about the song. I like the song, so, for me, there's nothing wrong about RING MY BELL being a highly priced rare record in the future. Different folks...

zeca azevedo, I'm just saying to you people that you can ring MY bell anytime you want :lol:

[jack]

don't dismiss your 7" collection as worthless you might be surprised! the northern collectors go for 7" over 12" e.g
"janice" skip mahoney-salsoul 12"=$50 7"=$100
"my babys got e.s.p" four below zero-roulette 12"=$60 7" $100+
and double on p&p :o

dumb(?) question...why do the 7" go for more?? i have noticed that on some items in the states this is also the case...is it a "rarity" thing?

[Greg Wilson]

Discodisk: On a topical note (with it being featured in one of the current KFC adverts), I'm interested to know how there came to be only 2 original copies of the Frank Wilson single in existence. Were these test pressings? What's the story behind this remarkable rarity?

[DISCODISK]

hi GREG no theyre not acetates these were actually pressed up as soul promos with a catalogue number the official story is frank[wilson] and berry decided that it would be better for frank to continue with motown as a writer/producer and not as an artist so the record was shelved with berry ordering all promos to be destroyed.there is another story that berry wanted the song for marvin but marvin wasnt interested.
that was thought to be that until tom dieperro discovered a copy in 1977,he didnt appear to be too interested in the record and our old friend simon soussan aquired the record in 1978 he knew what he had and the havoc it would cause on the northern scene acetates went out to english d.js his bootleg machine was cranked up and it was all done under another artists name eddie foster,later that year simon sold the record to les mccutceron [the guy that formed shakatak] for $500 at this point it was loaned to russ winstanley at the casino and became a monster the record got slightly damaged and got passed on to notts d.j jonathon woodliffe for round 250 pounds who in turn sold it to kev roberts for 350 pounds in swaps [12" singles and funk and soul records] ten years later it was sold to tim brown for 5,000 pounds thats one copy.the other was turned up in 1990 by a guy in toronto canada martin koppel who is known to canadian members here as he has a record shop in toronto kops collectables that is the copy that was sold later in the decade to cllector kenny burrell for 15,000 pounds!but what would they sell for if either was offered for sale again? much much more,what price do you put on an item that only two copies exist and that it is such a fantastic record as well as one of motowns best recordings.there was a version cut too on chris clark and that is just as good that was never pressed though there were acetates knocking round england ten years ago they were supposed to have come from chris clarks cellar :-? 50 of em,i had one i always believed they were bootlegs so i sold mine for a good price.franks version got a legit motown reissue in the u.k in 79 i have a promo they are expensive and hard to find but truthfully its something i would never play at home as i think im almost at the point of hearing it enough in my lifetime[as good as it is]when i d.j here i have to take it with me out of a 3 d.j team i am more known for playing more newer released records i do my very best not to play it but very rarely can i get away with it :roll: BTW both verions were released back to back on the canadian stardust label a couple of years ago

[Greg Wilson]

Thanks for that Discodisk. Crossed paths with some of the people you mentioned back in the early 80's. Could you clarify a couple of things?

1. You say there are two copies out there. Isn't it possible that Frank Wilson, Berry Gordy, or any Motown employees have further copies (I'm sure this question has been asked many times)?

2. Where did Tom Dieperro come across the first copy?

3. How many bootleg copies did Simon Soussan press up of the 'Eddie Foster' record, and did he keep the same title? Presumably this would also command a fair price with collectors. Did any of the DJ's cotton onto the fact that this was the withdrawn Frank Wilson recording?

4. Chris Clark? Sorry, I'm not quite sure who this is, and how he comes into the story. How did he come across this other version?

I find the whole thing fascinating. I'd always thought that this was a big Northern tune from the off, but it obviously didn't start getting played until the late 70's.

It's interesting that you said the song was offered to Marvin Gaye. The Bobby Garrett track that features in the other KFC ad really puts me in mind of 'Ain't That Perculiar'!

Any idea how these KFC ads came about and who advised them on the choice of tracks?

[Greg Wilson]

Thanks for that Discodisk. Crossed paths with some of the people you mentioned back in the early 80's. Could you clarify a couple of things?

1. You say there are two copies out there. Isn't it possible that Frank Wilson, Berry Gordy, or any Motown employees have further copies (I'm sure this question has been asked many times)?

2. Where did Tom Dieperro come across the first copy?

3. How many bootleg copies did Simon Soussan press up of the 'Eddie Foster' record, and did he keep the same title? Presumably this would also command a fair price with collectors. Did any of the DJ's cotton onto the fact that this was the withdrawn Frank Wilson recording?

4. Chris Clark? Sorry, I'm not quite sure who this is, and how he comes into the story. How did he come across this other version?

I find the whole thing fascinating. I'd always thought that this was a big Northern tune from the off, but it obviously didn't start getting played until the late 70's.

It's interesting that you said the song was offered to Marvin Gaye. The Bobby Garrett track that features in the other KFC ad really puts me in mind of 'Ain't That Perculiar'!

Any idea how these KFC ads came about and who advised them on the choice of tracks?

[DISCODISK]

HI greg wilson
in answer to your questions
1 yes its possible other copies exist,but frank dosnt own one he was surprised as hell when he first heard about this ill tell you a funny story that i have mentioned here before he played the togetherness blackpool weekender here a couple of years ago and one of the northern soul magazines nabbed him for a cover shot of the mag,smiling with a copy of said record in hand and the headline read 'frank turns up in london with a box of do i love you found in his attic'!i thought that was really funny as every single reader would have initially thought 'what' :o

2 its possible it came actually out of the motown building as he did research there

3 thousands were pressed up theyve all but dissapeared though you occasionally see them on e.bay they do go for quite a few quid, a few years ago they were considered a bit collectable but people go for the english 79 issue or the next best thing to a soul copy is an english promo

4 chris clark was a lesser known white motown act she joined in 63 and released records till 69 she made some nice records she then went on to motown management,i think when it was decided that the franks record wasnt going to be released her vocals were dubbed on however neither was to be. i dont know what the relationship between these two was but heres where the story gets stranger, theres another dynamite northern soul classic "my sugar baby" by connie clark released on joker records released around the same time[i dont know if the name of the label was like the jokes on you or as a reference to the batman t.v series as this was mentioned a lot in dance music at that time] written by frank wilson the record is similar to do i love you,but connie turns out to be chris!!then it came to light frank was supposed to have recorded it too!that version was released in england 2 years ago but i dont really believe it if you listen to the vocals on the motown record and that its hard to believe i think it was more likely done in the back of a taxi from heathrow to blackpool!! but that bad girl chris moonlighting from motown!

no it wasnt a northern record from the word go motown collectors knew there was a missing number in the soul catalogue but it was totally unknown,though once played it didnt take long before the true identity came out.motown fans still believe theres more surprises to come sure theres been tons of unreleased stuff but something thats actually been pressed is much more exiting,hopefully there will be a couple more.we spoke recently about the beatles and motown acts in the early days in england youll remember[?!!!!]or seen the ready steady go video with kim weston singing "a little more love" that was thought to be an english only release but again a couple of years ago a tamla copy turned up for sale in england so it can happen

also greg youve made a great observation of bobby garrett sounding like marvin gaye thats so true and i hadnt noticed that before its a good job berry didnt notice i mean look what happened to j.j barnes recording carreer when the same was said of him :lol:
i dont know much about the k.t.f ads at present they made some good choices but they should have used a later part of the bobby garret disc to give a bit more sax :lol: :lol:

[efunk_adelic]

Rare sucks

I do have a comment.

Rare could mean a lot of things and here is an example:

Let's say I wanted a copy of Elvis Presley's "Hound Dog/Don't Be Cruel" on 7". It would be virtually impossible to find that record in mint condition in it's original picture sleeve even tho millions of copies existed at one point making it rare to find it in the condition above.

For me I'd rather stick to "hard to find" than rare because even though Jakki's - "Sun, Sun, Sun" is rare, I don't care if I even come across it because I don't care for the song.

Moving right along, I went thru a stage where I just had to have the original copy on a 7" single of a particular song.
For Example: I wanted a copy of the single by the Chantels - He's Gone. I paid $40.00 for it about 10 years ago. Paid $25.00 for a copy of Cadets - Stranded In The Jungle, just to have them in my ever growing collection of music.

Right now, I'm on a hunt for Chi-Lites "Bottom's Up" on 12" and Side Effects - "Make You Mine" on CD. one other title
Debbie Dean - "Don't Let Him Shop Around" on whatever. I've never heard the song, but it's going price is about $75.00 :x

[Greg Wilson]

Discodisk: Thanks for all the info on Frank Wilson.

Intrigued to hear about this cryptic Beatles/Motown connection!?

The Beatles were obviously huge fans of R&B, covering tracks by the Isley Brothers, Barrett Strong, The Miracles, The Marvelletes, Arthur Alexander and The Shirelles on their first 2 albums. Mary Wells was also the first Motown artist to tour the UK (supporting The Beatles for 4 weeks in 64). There are photos of them arriving back in the UK after their first all conquering visit to the States, carrying R&B albums as they come off the plane (they also spent a famous evening phoning a NYC radio station from their hotel room requesting tracks by artists like Marvin Gaye and The Exciters).

I was fortunate enough to get to know one of the most legendary DJ's of all, the late Bob Wooler, who introduced The Beatles on stage at The Cavern 274 times (sorry, I'm going into real trainspotter mode there!). Listening to Bob talking about how he got hold of some of the records he played put me in mind of the subsequent Northern Soul movement. Many US releases were brought into Liverpool via the 'Cunard Yanks', merchant sailors returning from trips to America. Bob told me that he used to search for records in second-hand shops, not only in Liverpool but throughout the region, in an effort to unearth the odd gem (this is how he said he came across a copy of Chan Romero's 'Hippy Hippy Shake', which as a result would become a regular feature of The Beatles' live set at the time, and was later a massive hit for another Merseybeat band, the Swinging Blue Jeans').

The Beatles were the first port of call for many people who would later get into Soul in a big way, and who, after hearing their R&B covers, began to seek out the original recordings and other releases by these artists (and songwriters).

The closest I ever got to The Beatles was when they appeared at the Tower Ballroom, across the River Mersey in my home town of New Brighton, on one famous occasion supporting Little Richard (whose band included Billy Preston) in Oct 62 (the day after their first single 'Love Me Do' made it's entry into the lower region of the UK singles chart). I was then a young child fast asleep in the next street!

[DISCODISK]

Right now, I'm on a hunt for Chi-Lites "Bottom's Up" on 12" and Side Effects - "Make You Mine" on CD. one other title
Debbie Dean - "Don't Let Him Shop Around" on whatever. I've never heard the song, but it's going price is about $75.00 :x

EFUNK_ADELIC
i cant really tell if you are saying you are trying to buy the debbie dean record,its a really early release motown 1007 stripes design from 1961 thats the reason it sells for that,the record is obviously very dated and is an answer record to the miracles shop around,she made a great record a few years later why am i lovin you but that would sell for 3 times the price of the other disc!