Earl Young The Drummer On 'The Hustle'?!

[Disco Funk]

I was reading a little interview Earl Young did on the Sound of Philadelphia Vol 2 CD on the Soul Jazz label, and he described his years playing in the philly area during the 60s and 70s etc... He explained that he was self taught, etc...

Anyway, at the end interview he mentions a bunch of tracks on which he played, which were obvious, but then he mentioned one track out of left field - Van McCoy's 'The Hustle'!

What?! But he isn't even credited on the LP. It was Rick Marotta and Steve Gadd who were the credited drummers on the LP. Heck, it doesn't quite sound like Earl playing, but then again, the way the song is mixed, you can't really hear the hi hat, and that's the dead giveaway when checking out Earl's playing. The drums are over-filtered and almost drowned out on The Hustle, except for the beat. The way he plays the snare, though, sounds like him, especially the way he ghosts on the beat.

I'm thinking that the same person who drummed on The Hustle also drummed on Shakey Ground and Disco Baby from the same album (Disco Baby).

What are your opinions? Do you think it sounds like Earl? Would he even have any reason to lie, especially about such an important track like The Hustle?

Disco Funk

[ol'skinflint]

I was reading a little interview Earl Young did on the Sound of Philadelphia Vol 2 CD on the Soul Jazz label, and he described his years playing in the philly area during the 60s and 70s etc... He explained that he was self taught, etc...

Anyway, at the end interview he mentions a bunch of tracks on which he played, which were obvious, but then he mentioned one track out of left field - Van McCoy's 'The Hustle'!

What?! But he isn't even credited on the LP. It was Rick Marotta and Steve Gadd who were the credited drummers on the LP. Heck, it doesn't quite sound like Earl playing, but then again, the way the song is mixed, you can't really hear the hi hat, and that's the dead giveaway when checking out Earl's playing. The drums are over-filtered and almost drowned out on The Hustle, except for the beat. The way he plays the snare, though, sounds like him, especially the way he ghosts on the beat.

I'm thinking that the same person who drummed on The Hustle also drummed on Shakey Ground and Disco Baby from the same album (Disco Baby).

What are your opinions? Do you think it sounds like Earl? Would he even have any reason to lie, especially about such an important track like The Hustle?

Disco Funk

well, all I can tell you is that you can't always believe album credits. I've read interviews with some bands who always or nearly always have misleading credits on their albums (for example, the rock bands Van Halen, Deep Purple and the Cure frequently list the entire group as the composers of their songs and have revealed in interviews that they only do that to share the composer's royalties evenly). On Michael Jackson's "HIStory" album he is listed as playing several instruments, which I guess is possible, but I've never actually SEEN him playing an instrument. And I also know it's not unusual for a musician to play on a particular recording and not get any credit at all......

[Videoskooter]

On Michael Jackson's "HIStory" album he is listed as playing several instruments, which I guess is possible, but I've never actually SEEN him playing an instrument.

He does, I saw him play keyboards and piano in a documentary. But you're right, the "credit-thing" is sometimes very doubtable (does that word exist?)

[Disco Funk]

I can see that being the case. I wonder why Earl Young would be shut out? He was such a driving force in the philly sound, I would think having his name in the credits might (MIGHT) have been a selling point of the album?

Perhaps he was under some contract obligation to another label, hence he could not legally appear on a Hugo & Luigi produced album?

I believe Van McCoy's earlier projects used the same philly guys who would go on to form MFSB, so perhaps Earl was doing McCoy a favor? It wouldn't be until his Movie Machine album that McCoy would use Philly musicians. I believe it was Charles Collins on drums on that album instead of Earl Young.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

*****

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*****

[remicks]

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so perhaps Earl was doing McCoy a favor?

Hmmmm............Earl Young and Van McCoy secretly making sweet music together ............. most intriguing ......


*****

[crafty]

All the fills and the general feel is Gadd. I would say it was Gadd without a doubt.

Ed

[Disco Funk]

All the fills and the general feel is Gadd. I would say it was Gadd without a doubt.

Ed

It was actually Earl Young who said that it was him on The Hustle. When I found that out and listened to it again, I'm inclined to believe it's him. I originally thought it was Steve Gadd, but the style of drumming on that song isn't something I've heard on another record that Steve Gadd played on that can be compared. I mean, other Van McCoy productions he played on featured him doing a latin feel, not that straight beat. Off the top of my head, the only comparable drumming style might be on 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover (not the infamous paradiddle, but the 'slip out the back jack...' section).

It's hard to tell it's Earl because of the Hugo and Luigi mixing style, which was to mix out the drum kit's highs (hi hat, cymbal, even ghosting on the snare). But the steady hi hat play, and the way the drummer hits the snare in the last half of the song (adding hits on the backbeat(?)) that makes me believe it's Earl.

Disco Funk

[crafty]

It was actually Earl Young who said that it was him on The Hustle. When I found that out and listened to it again, I'm inclined to believe it's him. I originally thought it was Steve Gadd, but the style of drumming on that song isn't something I've heard on another record that Steve Gadd played on that can be compared. I mean, other Van McCoy productions he played on featured him doing a latin feel, not that straight beat. Off the top of my head, the only comparable drumming style might be on 50 Ways To Leave Your Lover (not the infamous paradiddle, but the 'slip out the back jack...' section).

It's hard to tell it's Earl because of the Hugo and Luigi mixing style, which was to mix out the drum kit's highs (hi hat, cymbal, even ghosting on the snare). But the steady hi hat play, and the way the drummer hits the snare in the last half of the song (adding hits on the backbeat(?)) that makes me believe it's Earl.

Disco Funk

OK. Put it this way.

Sound. You can't go on drum sound. Both Earl's and Gadd's kits at the time were very similar; Single-headed toms tuned low and heavily dampened. Snare drum - probably a Luddy 400 for both drummers. Cymbals - again a similar set up - old dark Zildjian Ks. I would suggest that Gadd's tuning and general sound was influenced by Earl and Rick Morrota. Earl and Sigma had bagged this sound several years before.

Technique. Without doubt Gadd is the technically superior of the two. Also Gadd and Earl have a different way of 'feeling time'. Earl has that New Orleans thing going on where he leans right into the beat. Gadd pulls on the groove but not as much as Earl. Both players have a killer 'pocket' BUT have their own sense of time.

Fills. Gadd an Earl can be indentified by their fills. Earl comes from the Blues. He has a no-nonsense approach and borrows from the economical players in Detriot. He developed his 'meat and potatos' style we hear in the Philly recordings by keeping the groove very clean - no (Purdie) ghost strokes; the emphesis on on the backbeat. Gadd borrows from the Detroit cannon too but his influences are in Jazz as well as Soul and Blues. Gadd has a set of signature fills like Earl. As soon are you hear them you know who you are dealing with. This again could be harking back to the Detroit idea that a drum fill (eg check the drum intro to Dancing In The Street and Grapevine) would take you straight to Motown.

The Hustle. On the strength of the type of 'pocket' used, the the use of extra snare skips used to 'dress up' the groove, the very clean execution of particular rudiments during some of the fills AND types of fill (very Gadd) used I would suggest it's Gadd playing on 'The Hustle'. Gadd was still relatively new to the session scene compared to Earl at the time and Van McCoy was pushing Gadd's career along. People were getting very excited about Gadd at this time. 'The Hustle' nailed it for him.

From the Gadd site..
'By 1975, Steve's career was in high gear. His first number one hit came that year with Van McCoy's 'The Hustle'.

Now. There are well documented cases regarding musicians claiming credit for tunes they may or may not have played on. It's difficult go get any clarity on this type of thing as top players tend not air their dirty laundry on the the net. Exceptions to the rule would be Hal Blaine for his claim to have played on 'Baby Love' and some other early Motown hits. Carol Kaye for her claims of playing on some early Motown tunes. Anybody with half an ear would be able to pinpoint Pistol, Benny and Jamerson to most of those early recordings. Blaine WOULD go on to play on 'The Happening' but this was after Motown's move to LA. Bernard Purdie still claims to have played on the early Beatles recordings by overdubbing his parts on top of Ringo's. This would be impossible as the early recordings were limited in the amount of tracks available to record onto. Any overdubbing would've been impossible.

Ed

[Disco Funk]

You make a lot of good points. It's possible that Earl played on a different take, but the released version featured Gadd. But one could also argue that Earl came in and did it as a favour, perhaps since he'd worked before with Van McCoy (he may have played on The Presidents and Brenda & The Tabulation recordings in the early 70s that McCoy produced in philadelphia).

I disagree on the ghosting point. Earl was probably the one drummer of the disco era who did some seriously heavy ghosting. Not of the Bernard Purdie type. You can hear it on TSOP, on a track called Chinese Chicken by Duke Williams, and the O'Jays' Give The People What They Want.

I'm thinking that Van McCoy may have given Earl specific instructions on how to play, and that's why it sounds slightly different from the philly recordings. The ride cymbal play, for example, isn't something that Earl did on disco recordings. He did do it a lot in the earlier philly soul stuff, but stuck to hi-hat only grooves once he got into the disco beat.

Isn't it possible that some of the 'feel' was mixed out by Hugo & Luigi? Earl's hi-hat was slightly open but steady. Didn't Gadd play a tightly closed hat? I guess the best way to compare if it's Gadd or not is to check out the drums on the follow up album Disco Kid. On that one, McCoy still hadn't gotten into that latin groove pocket, so the drum patterns are similar to the ones on Disco Baby.

Either way, I've always wondered why The Hustle sounded different from the typical Van McCoy recordings; so it may be due to the fact that a different drummer from Gadd and Marotta was used?

Disco Funk

[crafty]

You make a lot of good points. It's possible that Earl played on a different take, but the released version featured Gadd. But one could also argue that Earl came in and did it as a favour, perhaps since he'd worked before with Van McCoy (he may have played on The Presidents and Brenda & The Tabulation recordings in the early 70s that McCoy produced in philadelphia).

I disagree on the ghosting point. Earl was probably the one drummer of the disco era who did some seriously heavy ghosting. Not of the Bernard Purdie type. You can hear it on TSOP, on a track called Chinese Chicken by Duke Williams, and the O'Jays' Give The People What They Want.

I'm thinking that Van McCoy may have given Earl specific instructions on how to play, and that's why it sounds slightly different from the philly recordings. The ride cymbal play, for example, isn't something that Earl did on disco recordings. He did do it a lot in the earlier philly soul stuff, but stuck to hi-hat only grooves once he got into the disco beat.

Isn't it possible that some of the 'feel' was mixed out by Hugo & Luigi? Earl's hi-hat was slightly open but steady. Didn't Gadd play a tightly closed hat? I guess the best way to compare if it's Gadd or not is to check out the drums on the follow up album Disco Kid. On that one, McCoy still hadn't gotten into that latin groove pocket, so the drum patterns are similar to the ones on Disco Baby.

Either way, I've always wondered why The Hustle sounded different from the typical Van McCoy recordings; so it may be due to the fact that a different drummer from Gadd and Marotta was used?

Disco Funk

Gadd Gadd Gadd Gadd Gadd....:icon_rolleyes:

[Disco Funk]

Gadd Gadd Gadd Gadd Gadd....:icon_rolleyes:

Hey, we're both entitled to our opinions. I hear Gadd and Earl differently from you.

Edit:

I went back to my CD of Disco Baby, and here's how the tracks breakdown and who I think is playing on what:

Disco Baby, The Hustle, Shakey Ground sound like the same drummer, Earl Young

Fire, Turn This Mother Out, Spanish Boogie are definitely Gadd

Pick Up The Pieces, Hey Girl Come & Get It feature a different sounding snare, like hitting a cardboard box, so I'm guessing it's Marotta

The toss-ups are Get Dancin and Doctors Orders. I think the former is Gadd and the latter might be Marotta because the drumming is similar to the first Choice Four LP (Finger Pointers), which is all Marotta.

The first three I listed can't be Gadd because they are just too simple. Gadd's a groover, but he's a fancy drummer. Earl does ghosting, but doesn't make little hits here and there to be complex, unlike Gadd. Gadd's sound is very busy, whereas Earl's is straight up, and pretty basic, but funky. If you listen to Jimmy Ruffin's Tell Me What You Want you can check out Earl's playing and hear how similar it sounds to The Hustle, etc... on Disco Baby

Disco Funk

[crafty]

Hey, we're both entitled to our opinions. I hear Gadd and Earl differently from you.

Edit:

I went back to my CD of Disco Baby, and here's how the tracks breakdown and who I think is playing on what:

Disco Baby, The Hustle, Shakey Ground sound like the same drummer, Earl Young

Fire, Turn This Mother Out, Spanish Boogie are definitely Gadd

Pick Up The Pieces, Hey Girl Come & Get It feature a different sounding snare, like hitting a cardboard box, so I'm guessing it's Marotta

The toss-ups are Get Dancin and Doctors Orders. I think the former is Gadd and the latter might be Marotta because the drumming is similar to the first Choice Four LP (Finger Pointers), which is all Marotta.

The first three I listed can't be Gadd because they are just too simple. Gadd's a groover, but he's a fancy drummer. Earl does ghosting, but doesn't make little hits here and there to be complex, unlike Gadd. Gadd's sound is very busy, whereas Earl's is straight up, and pretty basic, but funky. If you listen to Jimmy Ruffin's Tell Me What You Want you can check out Earl's playing and hear how similar it sounds to The Hustle, etc... on Disco Baby

Disco Funk

Ok DF.

My interest as to who played what on which track does not extend as far as yours. Best thing you can do is try to contact the drummers or producers personally. I've offered my points of view based on a career in drumming for the past 25 years. Obviously my compelling and well thought-out point regarding Gadd being the drummer on 'The Hustle' has made no difference to your take on the situation - which is completely up to you.

'Earl Young The Drummer On 'The Hustle'?!' - Your original question.
My answer - The evidence stylistically and factually reveals it probably wasn't.

Ed.

[QUINNY]

From a purely technical standpoint (sound-wise/recording-wise): I believe they would have miked up the drum kits in such a way that 'mixing out' certain parts wouldn't have been possible. In '76 you're still talking 16 track predominantly and I doubt they would have taken up 10 or more of those tracks with drum mics and used countless gates to filter out certain parts of the kit (very fiddly and time consuming), not even if they made a stereo mixdown of those first, before filling the remaining 14, especially 'conservative' producers like H&L. In '76, it was still a case of miking up the full kit to get a good overall balance, with maybe the kick and snare given some emphasis, by simply closer miking and/or limited gating. SFAIK there were no microphones that had such a limited frequency response that they had virtually NO top end whatsoever (even the really old valve microphones would have had a relatively wide frequency response) and EQing to that degree would have been beyond the capabilities of mixing desks at that time (and still is to a large extent). If you listen to the drums, they don't sound heavily EQ'd or heavily gated...not to my ears.

The likelihood is that whoever did the drumming was told what pattern to play after coming up with a few suggestions for Van McCoy to ponder AND he played only a few parts of the kit. Indeed, he may have even told to mimic another drummer's style.

However, after saying all of the above, it's still possible that whoever was pencilled in to do the track was unavailable for whatever reason and a repacement session drummer had to be found. Such is the world of session musicians and recordings.

[crafty]

From a purely technical standpoint (sound-wise/recording-wise): I believe they would have miked up the drum kits in such a way that 'mixing out' certain parts wouldn't have been possible. In '76 you're still talking 16 track predominantly and I doubt they would have taken up 10 or more of those tracks with drum mics and used countless gates to filter out certain parts of the kit (very fiddly and time consuming), not even if they made a stereo mixdown of those first, before filling the remaining 14, especially 'conservative' producers like H&L. In '76, it was still a case of miking up the full kit to get a good overall balance, with maybe the kick and snare given some emphasis, by simply closer miking and/or limited gating. SFAIK there were no microphones that had such a limited frequency response that they had virtually NO top end whatsoever (even the really old valve microphones would have had a relatively wide frequency response) and EQing to that degree would have been beyond the capabilities of mixing desks at that time (and still is to a large extent). If you listen to the drums, they don't sound heavily EQ'd or heavily gated...not to my ears.

The likelihood is that whoever did the drumming was told what pattern to play after coming up with a few suggestions for Van McCoy to ponder AND he played only a few parts of the kit. Indeed, he may have even told to mimic another drummer's style.

However, after saying all of the above, it's still possible that whoever was pencilled in to do the track was unavailable for whatever reason and a repacement session drummer had to be found. Such is the world of session musicians and recordings.

In order for a drummer to be brought in at a later date to replace the drum track, the original click track would still be required (assuming there was one). You may need to count the BPMs at the start and end to see if there was any wander. I suspect there was a click track, which would have occupied one of those 16 tracks, so the track could be edited at a later date. Once the mix was decided, the original click track MAY have been disposed of to free up an extra track for more overdubs, if required at a later date. Many session I have played on in the old days did exactly this. It's unlikely the drum track was replaced, which brings us back to the Gadd/Morrota/Young question.

I have met Gadd and found him to be a humble and thoroughly decent guy. Recently, he was on a clinic tour and was happy to demonstrate drum patterns on tunes he'd played on...

Due to the huge crowd of nearly 1,000 people, the clinic started 30 minutes late to allow everyone to be seated. Steve's two hour clinic included demonstrations of many of his classic, signature grooves, including Van McCoy's "Do The Hustle" and of course Paul Simon's "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover" and "Late In The Evening". He fielded questions from the audience, often demonstrating examples of how he creates his parts for the studio.

If Gadd had NOT played on the original release of The Hustle, he would have said so and credited the drummer who did. He would certainly NOT be demonstrating somebody elses drum parts at his own clinic. The Gadd cannon is vast enough.

Ed

[Disco Funk]

We certainly have different approaches to our experiences with the sound with the drums. You've made a career of it playing for years. I can't claim to have that experience, by a long shot. I started listening to drums in songs about 20 years ago, first in Beatles music, then branching into funk (via rap) and disco. I've been collecting 'break beats' for well over a decade and a half, which is essentially an interest in the drum patterns in a song. For me, I don't get excited over Buddy Rich doing a drum solo. And I wouldn't know a Buddy Rich drum solo from a Keith Moon solo. For me, it's all about the groove. When the band cuts out and the drummer keeps going, that's what I really am interested in. I'm pretty good at identifying drummers on records, even if they're not credited. I know Bernard Purdie's style from Gadd's; I can tell if it's Ed Greene playing, or James Gadson; and with the disco drummers, specifically the Philly ones, I can tell Earl Young from Charles Collins, even though Collins' style kind of emulated Young on certain records. Late 70s records are harder to tell apart because most disco drummers played a stiff, 'monotone' beat at that time. So, while I don't have any formal training, and have never owned a drum set, I know my way around a kit if I had to play. :)

The Hustle is hard to figure out because the drums are slightly muffled. They're not clean sounding, so it's hard to pick out certain aspects of Earl's style. But the way he enters into his drum fills (cymbal crash first, then fill) is similar to what is used on The Hustle, Disco Baby and Shakey Ground. And the playing on The Hustle is so basic it's almost an insult to Gadd to say he played on it, because he tended to put more colour into his playing. You can really hear him unloading in Spanish Boogie. But if he's workshopping the drums on that song, then I'd have to admit 'defeat', although under extreme protest! :)

I wish I could ask the drummers directly. Earl says he played on it in an interview. Steve workshops the groove. I wouldn't accuse either drummer of lying or stretching the truth. Even Purdie might have been right about playing on Beatles records. But they may have been the Tony Sheridan records, since Pete Best was a terrible timekeeper, although I don't think they had more than 3 tracks for those master tapes, so they would have probably had to re-record other instruments as well. That's probably where the confusion lies with Purdie.

Perhaps Van McCoy did something like what Steely Dan used to do, and that was to have different sets of musicians come in and play the same song, and whichever version Fagen and Becker liked, that was put on the Steely Dan record.

Disco Funk