Philly Soul-The Blueprint for Disco

[originalbigm]

This subject was prompted through a previous discussion in the funk forum regarding the original disco man. While it is acknowledged that James Brown was one of the original disco men he was not the originator of the "disco" sound. I believe that distinction belongs to Gamble and Huff and their Philly artists.One would be hard pressed to argue otherwise.While funk, R&B and soul were the predominant genre of the early seventies (1970-1973) a new sound was beginning to emerge.

"A community of musicians and producers converged on Philadelphia International Records, including the O’Jays, Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes (with alumnus Teddy Pendergrass), and MFSB. At Philadelphia International, Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff created a signature sound, mixing irresistibly danceable grooves with arrangements for large horn and string sections on unforgettable records, such as Joe Simon’s “Drowning in the Sea of Love,” Billy Paul’s “Me and Mrs. Jones,” and the Intruders’ “I’ll Always Love My Mama.” They pioneered the ten-minute anthems of soul—for example, the theme song from Soul Train—that provided the building blocks for disco and modern dance music."

It is recognized that Gamble & Huff were the predominant architects of disco. Beginning as early as the mid sixties it wasn't till establishing of Philadelphia International records begiining in 1971 that the real creativity began.

"Songwriters, producers, entrepreneurs - Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff were the
focal point of the urbane soul of the "Philly Sound" from the mid '60s through the early '80s. Their Philadelphia International Records was to the '70s what Motown was to the '60s: the preeminent black-owned entertainment enterprise in America and the conveyance of the finest soul music to the world.
The pair's work with the Intruders, Archie Bell and the Drells, Jerry Butler and Wilson Pickett is classic; but their innovations with the O'Jays, Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes, and their house band, MFSB, helped lay the foundations for both funk and disco and generated some of the '70s most enduring music.
With the O'Jays, and Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes, the world of Gamble and Huff came together. In the '70s G&H scored ten No. 1 R&B and nine Top 40 pop hits with the O'Jays; four No. 1 R&B and four Top 20 hits with Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes. But more importantly, all the disparate elements of the G&H sound coalesced into something new: music with the aforementioned rhythmic muscle, melodic sophistication and orchestral leavening, combined with a newfound social and interpersonal awareness, all funneled through the great pipes of the O'Jays' Eddie Levert and the Bluesnotes' Teddy Pendergrass. Recorded at G&H's Sigma Sound with engineer Joe Tarsia, the roll began with the O'Jays' "Backstabbers," a remarkable combination of shimmering strings, Latin percussion, post-modern paranoia and a palpable sense of "This is it - there is nothing any of us could or should be doing other than making this music." G&H weren't following Motown (where Norman Whitfield was making parallel strides) or anyone else (Curtis Mayfield and Isaac Hayes were independently exploring some of the same terrain): they were leading.
In addition to making hits, G&H allowed MFSB to stretch out in the grooves of the songs, laying a funky foundation for the extended disco remixes of the later-'70s. Album cuts of such uptempo masterworks as the Bluenotes' "Bad Luck" and "The Love I Lost"; MFSB's "TSOP" (The Soul Train theme song) and "Love Is the Message"; and the O'Jays' "992 Arguments," "I Love Music" and (best) "For the Love of Money" reached lengths of up to 10-minutes of dance floor ecstasy.
"Money" is Huff's all-time favorite "for the [anti-greed] message and for the song [ironic now, eh?]. I used to go the O'Jays concerts and they would drive people insane when they would close the show with that song," he says.
Of course G&H were also writing and producing great ballads for the Bluenotes ("If You Don't Know Me By Now," "I Miss You," "Yesterday I Had the Blues"), Billy Paul ("Me and Mrs. Jones"), the Three Degrees ("When Will I See You Again") and many others.
The roll continued through the '70s and into the early '80s when hip-hop, hard funk and electronic dance styles rendered soul and disco (temporarily) obsolete, and an industry-wide slump soured everyone's milk."

The studio band was MFSB and it's members have been credited with the development of the disco sound

From Alllmusic
"MFSB was the legendary multicultural house band for the label Philadelphia International. Debuting as an act in 1973, the band released seminal early-disco tracks like "TSOP," "Love Is the Message," and the ballad "Something For Nothing." Although this effort(Universal Love) didn't reach the heights of its predecessor, Love Is the Message, Universal Love has the band exhibiting even more skill as a hitmaking enterprise. As with the earlier hits, seven out of the eight tracks on Universal Love were arranged by Bobby Martin, who always got a classic sound out of any Philly production. The tracks "Sexy" and "T.L.C. (Tender Lovin' Care)" both effortlessly employ intonations of big band that came from the horn charts and Zach Zachery's tenor sax solos. At this point the gloss and rhythm style of the MFSB players, primarily the sound of bassist Ron Baker and drummer Earl Young, helped to initiate disco."

The focal point of MFSB was TSOP

"Discounting their colleague and peer Thom Bell, the sound of Philadelphia -- at least Philly soul -- belonged to Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff, so it was appropriate that they wrote a song called "TSOP (The Sound of Philadelphia)." The song was conceived as an instrumental to showcase the talents of MFSB, the house band at Gamble & Huff's record label Philadelphia International. In that sense, it succeeded quite brilliantly, since it is a catchy, danceable record with a strong hook and a deep, stylish groove -- all the things that made Philadelphia International one the best and most popular soul labels of the '70s. Gamble & Huff brought in the Three Degrees to provide supporting vocals, but they don't make nearly as much impact as the soaring, cinematic melody, galloping bass, skittering guitar, and thumping beat. This was the sound of disco, actually, before it was called disco -- big beats, big hooks, and lavish production. Appropriately, it became a theme song, not just for disco, but for the syndicated television program Soul Train, which showcased disco, dance, funk, and urban soul acts. Because of its status as the theme song for Soul Train, the song was seem as a cliché or a joke by some hipsters, but the song -- actually, MFSB's recording -- endured, since it did capture everything that was good about disco, while still being an integral part of the latter-day Philly soul sound."

Gamble & Huffs work with the O'jays heralded the sound of music to come

"From "One Night Affair" to "Let Me in Your World," this superb album( The O'Jays in Phialdelphia 1969) is quintessential Philly soul. While Eddie Levert's gospel-influenced belting is as gritty as anything that came from Stax Records, the production is as notably sleek. A few years later, Gamble & Huff would produce a longer, heavily syncopated version of "Affair" for Jerry Butler that some soul historians exalt as the first disco single."
"Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff's trademark Philadelphia International production is as smooth as the song's message is biting, however -- the lush orchestrations and slithering rhythm anticipate the emergence of disco."

"With the intoxicating"I Love Music," the O'Jays stressed the soul side of disco and provided one of the most appealing hits of the disco era."
Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes were the other mainstay of Phialdelphia International and gave us some glorious disco songs.

"The Blue Notes scored again in 1973 with the string-laden dance track "The Love I Lost," credited by many observers as one of the first disco records; it was their second R&B chart-topper and Top Ten pop single. The accompanying album, Black & Blue, produced another R&B Top Ten in the follow-up "Satisfaction Guaranteed (Or Take Your Love Back)." In 1974, Lloyd Parks was replaced by Jerry Cummings, who debuted on the R&B chart-topping LP To Be True. "Where Are All My Friends" and "Bad Luck" continued their string of Top Ten R&B hits, and a new addition to the group, female vocalist Sharon Paige, helped bring them back to the top of the R&B charts in 1975 with the duet "Hope That We Can Be Together Soon." Another excellent album followed later that year in Wake Up Everybody, whose title track was another R&B number one; "Tell the World How I Feel About 'Cha Baby" also reached the R&B Top Ten, and the album cut "Don't Leave Me This Way" was later covered for a disco smash by Thelma Houston."
Interestingly aspect on Gamble & Huffs creativity.

Co-written by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, "The Love I Lost" was originally a ballad. During the recording session for the song, Gamble and MFSB felt that the tempo was dragging. Gamble yelled "the hell with it!" and enthusiastically directed the musicians to pick up the tempo and thus a lushly orchestrated dance classic was born."

And the hits just kept coming

"Featuring the Instant Funk rhythm section, "Bad Luck" was a bold, brassy piece of energetic Philly soul that has some show-stopping accents and a huge disco hit."

Having presented the above information I'd be interested in comments from the forum members.Personally Philly Soul was and remains my favourite style of disco. It still is a joy to listen to today.It was the class and creme de creme of disco.

[tony98]

I'd like to say thanks to Originalbigm for bringing up the subject up of Philly Soul as i'm a fan from way back. I 60's i bought things like the Intruders"United" "Cowboys To Girls" all the Gamble & Huff Jerry Butler tracks. The O'Jays "Looky Looky" & "Deeper In Love" on Neptune, and in the 70's i just kept on buying every thing from Sigma Sound Studios.

[ol'skinflint]

This subject was prompted through a previous discussion in the funk forum regarding the original disco man. While it is acknowledged that James Brown was one of the original disco men he was not the originator of the "disco" sound. I believe that distinction belongs to Gamble and Huff and their Philly artists.One would be hard pressed to argue otherwise.While funk, R&B and soul were the predominant genre of the early seventies (1970-1973) a new sound was beginning to emerge.

"A community of musicians and producers converged on Philadelphia International Records, including the O’Jays, Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes (with alumnus Teddy Pendergrass), and MFSB. At Philadelphia International, Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff created a signature sound, mixing irresistibly danceable grooves with arrangements for large horn and string sections on unforgettable records, such as Joe Simon’s “Drowning in the Sea of Love,” Billy Paul’s “Me and Mrs. Jones,” and the Intruders’ “I’ll Always Love My Mama.” They pioneered the ten-minute anthems of soul—for example, the theme song from Soul Train—that provided the building blocks for disco and modern dance music."

It is recognized that Gamble & Huff were the predominant architects of disco. Beginning as early as the mid sixties it wasn't till establishing of Philadelphia International records begiining in 1971 that the real creativity began.

"Songwriters, producers, entrepreneurs - Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff were the
focal point of the urbane soul of the "Philly Sound" from the mid '60s through the early '80s. Their Philadelphia International Records was to the '70s what Motown was to the '60s: the preeminent black-owned entertainment enterprise in America and the conveyance of the finest soul music to the world.
The pair's work with the Intruders, Archie Bell and the Drells, Jerry Butler and Wilson Pickett is classic; but their innovations with the O'Jays, Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes, and their house band, MFSB, helped lay the foundations for both funk and disco and generated some of the '70s most enduring music.
With the O'Jays, and Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes, the world of Gamble and Huff came together. In the '70s G&H scored ten No. 1 R&B and nine Top 40 pop hits with the O'Jays; four No. 1 R&B and four Top 20 hits with Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes. But more importantly, all the disparate elements of the G&H sound coalesced into something new: music with the aforementioned rhythmic muscle, melodic sophistication and orchestral leavening, combined with a newfound social and interpersonal awareness, all funneled through the great pipes of the O'Jays' Eddie Levert and the Bluesnotes' Teddy Pendergrass. Recorded at G&H's Sigma Sound with engineer Joe Tarsia, the roll began with the O'Jays' "Backstabbers," a remarkable combination of shimmering strings, Latin percussion, post-modern paranoia and a palpable sense of "This is it - there is nothing any of us could or should be doing other than making this music." G&H weren't following Motown (where Norman Whitfield was making parallel strides) or anyone else (Curtis Mayfield and Isaac Hayes were independently exploring some of the same terrain): they were leading.
In addition to making hits, G&H allowed MFSB to stretch out in the grooves of the songs, laying a funky foundation for the extended disco remixes of the later-'70s. Album cuts of such uptempo masterworks as the Bluenotes' "Bad Luck" and "The Love I Lost"; MFSB's "TSOP" (The Soul Train theme song) and "Love Is the Message"; and the O'Jays' "992 Arguments," "I Love Music" and (best) "For the Love of Money" reached lengths of up to 10-minutes of dance floor ecstasy.
"Money" is Huff's all-time favorite "for the [anti-greed] message and for the song [ironic now, eh?]. I used to go the O'Jays concerts and they would drive people insane when they would close the show with that song," he says.
Of course G&H were also writing and producing great ballads for the Bluenotes ("If You Don't Know Me By Now," "I Miss You," "Yesterday I Had the Blues"), Billy Paul ("Me and Mrs. Jones"), the Three Degrees ("When Will I See You Again") and many others.
The roll continued through the '70s and into the early '80s when hip-hop, hard funk and electronic dance styles rendered soul and disco (temporarily) obsolete, and an industry-wide slump soured everyone's milk."

The studio band was MFSB and it's members have been credited with the development of the disco sound

From Alllmusic
"MFSB was the legendary multicultural house band for the label Philadelphia International. Debuting as an act in 1973, the band released seminal early-disco tracks like "TSOP," "Love Is the Message," and the ballad "Something For Nothing." Although this effort(Universal Love) didn't reach the heights of its predecessor, Love Is the Message, Universal Love has the band exhibiting even more skill as a hitmaking enterprise. As with the earlier hits, seven out of the eight tracks on Universal Love were arranged by Bobby Martin, who always got a classic sound out of any Philly production. The tracks "Sexy" and "T.L.C. (Tender Lovin' Care)" both effortlessly employ intonations of big band that came from the horn charts and Zach Zachery's tenor sax solos. At this point the gloss and rhythm style of the MFSB players, primarily the sound of bassist Ron Baker and drummer Earl Young, helped to initiate disco."

The focal point of MFSB was TSOP

"Discounting their colleague and peer Thom Bell, the sound of Philadelphia -- at least Philly soul -- belonged to Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff, so it was appropriate that they wrote a song called "TSOP (The Sound of Philadelphia)." The song was conceived as an instrumental to showcase the talents of MFSB, the house band at Gamble & Huff's record label Philadelphia International. In that sense, it succeeded quite brilliantly, since it is a catchy, danceable record with a strong hook and a deep, stylish groove -- all the things that made Philadelphia International one the best and most popular soul labels of the '70s. Gamble & Huff brought in the Three Degrees to provide supporting vocals, but they don't make nearly as much impact as the soaring, cinematic melody, galloping bass, skittering guitar, and thumping beat. This was the sound of disco, actually, before it was called disco -- big beats, big hooks, and lavish production. Appropriately, it became a theme song, not just for disco, but for the syndicated television program Soul Train, which showcased disco, dance, funk, and urban soul acts. Because of its status as the theme song for Soul Train, the song was seem as a cliché or a joke by some hipsters, but the song -- actually, MFSB's recording -- endured, since it did capture everything that was good about disco, while still being an integral part of the latter-day Philly soul sound."

Gamble & Huffs work with the O'jays heralded the sound of music to come

"From "One Night Affair" to "Let Me in Your World," this superb album( The O'Jays in Phialdelphia 1969) is quintessential Philly soul. While Eddie Levert's gospel-influenced belting is as gritty as anything that came from Stax Records, the production is as notably sleek. A few years later, Gamble & Huff would produce a longer, heavily syncopated version of "Affair" for Jerry Butler that some soul historians exalt as the first disco single."
"Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff's trademark Philadelphia International production is as smooth as the song's message is biting, however -- the lush orchestrations and slithering rhythm anticipate the emergence of disco."

"With the intoxicating"I Love Music," the O'Jays stressed the soul side of disco and provided one of the most appealing hits of the disco era."
Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes were the other mainstay of Phialdelphia International and gave us some glorious disco songs.

"The Blue Notes scored again in 1973 with the string-laden dance track "The Love I Lost," credited by many observers as one of the first disco records; it was their second R&B chart-topper and Top Ten pop single. The accompanying album, Black & Blue, produced another R&B Top Ten in the follow-up "Satisfaction Guaranteed (Or Take Your Love Back)." In 1974, Lloyd Parks was replaced by Jerry Cummings, who debuted on the R&B chart-topping LP To Be True. "Where Are All My Friends" and "Bad Luck" continued their string of Top Ten R&B hits, and a new addition to the group, female vocalist Sharon Paige, helped bring them back to the top of the R&B charts in 1975 with the duet "Hope That We Can Be Together Soon." Another excellent album followed later that year in Wake Up Everybody, whose title track was another R&B number one; "Tell the World How I Feel About 'Cha Baby" also reached the R&B Top Ten, and the album cut "Don't Leave Me This Way" was later covered for a disco smash by Thelma Houston."
Interestingly aspect on Gamble & Huffs creativity.

Co-written by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, "The Love I Lost" was originally a ballad. During the recording session for the song, Gamble and MFSB felt that the tempo was dragging. Gamble yelled "the hell with it!" and enthusiastically directed the musicians to pick up the tempo and thus a lushly orchestrated dance classic was born."

And the hits just kept coming

"Featuring the Instant Funk rhythm section, "Bad Luck" was a bold, brassy piece of energetic Philly soul that has some show-stopping accents and a huge disco hit."

Having presented the above information I'd be interested in comments from the forum members.Personally Philly Soul was and remains my favourite style of disco. It still is a joy to listen to today.It was the class and creme de creme of disco.

and did you know that Leon Huff recorded at least one solo album? I own it...it's called "Here to Create Music"

[QUINNY]

I've always felt that TSOP was THE landmark concering Disco.....for better, for worse. It was everywhere, all the time, (much to my chagrin:icon_cry: ) and soon a thousand imitations of its sound followed. Unfortunately, too many of the copyists weren't half as good as Gamble & Huff (are you listening Eurodisco fans?) IMO.

Personally, the Philly sound was too lush/too sweet/too bland/too formularised for me in many of its incarnations ( I absolutely hated the Intruders - I'll Always Love My Mama and (Win, Place or Show) She's A Winner, for instance ), BUT there is no denying that the Philly sound was loved by many, many punters and it was that sound and that combination of elements that drove Disco in its formative years. Every DJ, everywhere, played the records and the dancers lapped 'em up.

[Disco Funk]

Thanks for the long post. I can't disagree with you at all, except that Bad Luck didn't feature Instant Funk. That was just the regular MFSB guys. I'm not sure if it was Ron Baker on bass and Earl Young on drums because guys like Michael Foreman (bass) and Charles Collins & Keith Benson (on drums) played their instruments in a similar style to those two guys. I think Instant Funk was only used to play on the songs on fringe artists on the label, like Archie Bell and Lou Rawls. The big names like Harold Melvin or The O'Jays had the regular MFSB guys on rhythm section. Also, Instant Funk was always used if Bunny Sigler was credited as the producer, and as far as I know, he didn't have any involvement on Bad Luck. Wasn't that a McFadden & Whitehead production?

One Philly guy that gets overlooked when talking about those early years (Gamble & Huff and Thom Bell seem to get all the props) is Stan Winston of Philly Groove. He was right up front there with those guys producing memorable dancefloor disco grooves in the early 70s. The Armed & Extremely Dangerous LP, with the title cut, Smarty Pants and Newsy Neighbors, was put out in '73.

After all that, I still think James' contribution to the creation of disco cannot be overlooked. I think a good example of his style of producing was a track released in '79 - 'Ring My Bell' by Anita Ward. Stripped down, funky disco. It didn't have the polyrhythmic guitar playing, but it was dirty and raw the way James liked to do it. James also pioneered those extended sections in dance music. Cold Sweat, his masterpiece, was released in '67. It certainly predated Isaac Hayes' extended tracks by a couple of years (Hot Buttered Soul).

Disco Funk

[originalbigm]

Thanks for the long post. I can't disagree with you at all, except that Bad Luck didn't feature Instant Funk. That was just the regular MFSB guys. I'm not sure if it was Ron Baker on bass and Earl Young on drums because guys like Michael Foreman (bass) and Charles Collins & Keith Benson (on drums) played their instruments in a similar style to those two guys. I think Instant Funk was only used to play on the songs on fringe artists on the label, like Archie Bell and Lou Rawls. The big names like Harold Melvin or The O'Jays had the regular MFSB guys on rhythm section. Also, Instant Funk was always used if Bunny Sigler was credited as the producer, and as far as I know, he didn't have any involvement on Bad Luck. Wasn't that a McFadden & Whitehead production?

One Philly guy that gets overlooked when talking about those early years (Gamble & Huff and Thom Bell seem to get all the props) is Stan Winston of Philly Groove. He was right up front there with those guys producing memorable dancefloor disco grooves in the early 70s. The Armed & Extremely Dangerous LP, with the title cut, Smarty Pants and Newsy Neighbors, was put out in '73.

After all that, I still think James' contribution to the creation of disco cannot be overlooked. I think a good example of his style of producing was a track released in '79 - 'Ring My Bell' by Anita Ward. Stripped down, funky disco. It didn't have the polyrhythmic guitar playing, but it was dirty and raw the way James liked to do it. James also pioneered those extended sections in dance music. Cold Sweat, his masterpiece, was released in '67. It certainly predated Isaac Hayes' extended tracks by a couple of years (Hot Buttered Soul).

Disco Funk

The information regarding Instant Funk came from Allmusic as well as the article I quoted.So I assumed it was correct however if you research Instant Funk on Allmusic they are credited with appearing on a number of Philly productions but no mention of "Bad Luck".
Now I'm interested learning more about Stan Winston since this is the first time I've heard of him:icon_question:

[originalbigm]

Hey Discofunk,
I believe you made an error regarding Stan Winston .Couldn't find such a person but I did come up with Stan Watson of Philly Groove Records:icon_razz:

[Disco Funk]

Hey Discofunk,
I believe you made an error regarding Stan Winston .Couldn't find such a person but I did come up with Stan Watson of Philly Groove Records:icon_razz:

My bad. It is Stan Watson! There are a number of Philly Groove CD compilations out there. You can also check out other early Philly dancers, like 'Ruby Lee' and 'You Are My Sun Sign' by Nat Turner (not the name of a particular singer, but a vocal group led by Major Harris). Collectibles and Kent are two companies that have put out good collections, with some overlapping tracks on all of them. Unfortunately, there weren't too many LPs released on Philly Groove. I notice many of the artists were single based only. The First Choice and The Sound Experience were the two major artists that had LPs, in addition to singles, released on that label during the early to mid 70s. I don't know if the self-titled album by Flashlight, which was released in '77, was on Philly Groove or some other label, but they were produced by Stan Watson. There are also a couple of Philly Groove Orchestra CDs out there, which are essentially compilations of instrumental versions of tracks released on Philly Groove. Most, if not all, were not released as instrumentals back in the day. I don't know if they were mixed back then as an intended album or B side instrumental release, but then kept in the vault. They sound exactly the same as the regular released versions, with vocals removed.

Disco Funk

[Disco Funk]

The information regarding Instant Funk came from Allmusic as well as the article I quoted.So I assumed it was correct however if you research Instant Funk on Allmusic they are credited with appearing on a number of Philly productions but no mention of "Bad Luck".

On Philly International, they were the band playing on Bunny Sigler's recordings. They also played on Bunny Sigler produced tracks for such artists as Lou Rawls and Archie Bell & The Drells. But there is some confusion on my part regarding the albums and tracks produced by Dexter Wansel and McFadden & Whitehead as to whether they used Instant Funk members, since Philly International albums only credited MFSB as the musicians, not the individual players. For example, tracks like 'Life On Mars' by Dexter Wansel or 'On The Radio' by Archie Bell & The Drells (produced by McFadden & Whitehead) sound like Raymond Earl of Instant Funk is on bass. Or was there another guy who played similar to Raymond on those cuts?

Sorry about my nerdish ramblings. I've been such a huge fan of that Instant Funk sound, pre 1980s, because I like how raw and deep the bass playing was on those cuts. I'd recommend stuff by South Shore Commission and Carl Carlton's 'I Wanna Be With You' LP, if you really like their sound.

Disco Funk

[Nano]

DiscoFunk, do you have a list of Philly records with Instant Funk as house-band? They're one of my favorite disco artists, but I didn't have much luck with the material I found from them working for other singers, like Evelyn King or Patti Brooks. For instance, I like the work Evelyn King did with Kashif much better than the album I have with IF backing her.

[Disco Funk]

DiscoFunk, do you have a list of Philly records with Instant Funk as house-band? They're one of my favorite disco artists, but I didn't have much luck with the material I found from them working for other singers, like Evelyn King or Patti Brooks. For instance, I like the work Evelyn King did with Kashif much better than the album I have with IF backing her.

Unfortunately I don't have a list of tracks or LPs they played on. In addition to the people you mention above, I think they played on the Pips LP from '78 (I don't recall the name of it). On Salsoul, they were on a number of Loleatta Holloway tracks, like I May Not Be There. And I do believe Raymond Earl is the bass player on USA European Connections 'Baby Love-Love's Coming'. He's playing that slap bass in the middle of the song. I don't know if they also played on the Mystique LP from 1977. Sigler produced some tracks on that. And wasn't there an LP Sigler did with Linda Clifford or Barbara Mason? Don't know if they played on that - I haven't heard it. Allmusic says they also played on T Life's 'That's Life', but I don't recall the LP sounding like they were on it. It would make sense, since they played on the T Life produced Evelyn King LP from 78 with Shame.

I don't know if you were aware of it, but in addition to their Philly Jump LP, they had a single-only release called 'Float Like A Butterfly'. There's two versions of the single, one of which as an instrumental B side.

Oh...I just remembered a great LP they were on that Sigler produced: Nightflight by Gabor Szabo. Awesome classic Instant Funk from '76. Highly recommended.

Disco Funk

[Nano]

Thank you! I will look for those

Just this afternoon I was cleaning my apartment to the sound of "Philly Jump". What an awesome groove... :icon_cool:

[Disco Funk]

Philly Jump is a great track. That whole Instant Funk LP was awesome. Too bad Philly International didn't give those guys more chance to prove themselves on the label.

I was going through my CDs and uncovered another LP with Bunny Sigler produced cuts: Curtis Mayfield's 'Heartbeat' album from '79.

Disco Funk

[Disco Funk]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this new philly discovery. Jimmy Ruffin - Tell Me What You Want. Originally released back in '74 on Chess, and produced by Richie Rome. It was already released in its short form on one of the volumes of Super Rare Disco (about 3 min)

Now, I've discovered a CD compilation called 'Disco Gold' from Hip-O (Universal?), which features a previously unreleased Tom Moulton extended mix of 7 1/2 minutes! Just an fyi if you are a Philly soul completist such as myself:

Disco Gold

Audio sample:

Tell Me What You Want

Disco Funk

[remicks]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this new philly discovery. Jimmy Ruffin - Tell Me What You Want. Originally released back in '74 on Chess, and produced by Richie Rome. It was already released in its short form on one of the volumes of Super Rare Disco (about 3 min)

Now, I've discovered a CD compilation called 'Disco Gold' from Hip-O (Universal?), which features a previously unreleased Tom Moulton extended mix of 7 1/2 minutes! Just an fyi if you are a Philly soul completist such as myself:

Disco Gold

Audio sample:

Tell Me What You Want

Disco Funk

Ohhh .... would love to have that TM seven minute version :icon_cool::icon_cool:

I haven't taken my Nyquil yet this evening ....so I presume what I'm about to say is apparent to all .....:icon_rolleyes: .....
This song is a nice homage to Al Green ....



...and a huge early disco tune .... peaking at #2 :

41) TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT - Jimmy Ruffin
(Chess/ 1974) P/W: Jimmy Ruffin
Timing: 3:12; BPM: approx. 102 bpm
Pop: n/c; R&B: #42; Disc-o-la Fortune 500: #307 out of 500
45: A) Tell Me What You Want; B) Don't You Know Me
CD Availability: "Super Rare Disco, Vol. I"
A= 73; B= 53; C= 68; D= 51; Total points = 245
14 weeks on the chart (*incomplete total) (*10/26/74 - 2/1/75)/ 6 weeks in the Top 10/ Peak: #2 for 2 weeks

*****

[Disco Funk]

Ohhh .... would love to have that TM seven minute version :icon_cool::icon_cool:

I haven't taken my Nyquil yet this evening ....so I presume what I'm about to say is apparent to all .....:icon_rolleyes: .....
This song is a nice homage to Al Green ....

I didn't quite catch that when I heard it, but now that you mention it, his vocals do sound like Al's. Funny about this track: I've had the Super Disco CD for almost a decade now. I've been a Philly disco fan for even longer. Yet, I didn't even realize that Jimmy Ruffin track was a Philly disco cut until I listened to it again yesterday. I don't how that one got past me! The way Earl Young plays the drums reminds me of The Ebony's Hook Up To Get Down, and a whole host of other mid-tempo dance groovers.

Jimmy Ruffin actually did a number of Philly-produced singles in the mid 70s. Another good one of his was Falling In Love... (I can't remember the full titled), which was included on the Spirit Of Philadelphia Vol.2 compilation. It was also produced by Richie Rome.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

Jimmy Ruffin actually did a number of Philly-produced singles in the mid 70s. Another good one of his was Falling In Love... (I can't remember the full titled), which was included on the Spirit Of Philadelphia Vol.2 compilation. It was also produced by Richie Rome.

Disco Funk

So there was no album done at the time ?? And yes .... you can sure tell that's my man Earl on the drums !
Looking at Marky's additional info TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT did not break the Hot 100 nor even the Soul Top 40 .....I'm guessing there wasn't the feel for the need for yet another "Al Green" tune on the radio programmers' tight playlists .

That makes this one of those secret pleasure songs known only to the disco going crowd ......:icon_cool: :icon_cool:


*****

[Disco Funk]

So there was no album done at the time ??

I tried to find info on an album, but no luck. His singles were on Chess and Epic.

And yes .... you can sure tell that's my man Earl on the drums !
Looking at Marky's additional info TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT did not break the Hot 100 nor even the Soul Top 40 .....I'm guessing there wasn't the feel for the need for yet another "Al Green" tune on the radio station's tight playlists .

That makes this one of those secret pleasure songs known only to the disco going crowd ......:icon_cool: :icon_cool:


*****

Perhaps he didn't get enough promotion going from Chess? It's hard to say. There are lots of great Philly tracks that just never made it to the top. Not a big deal for me, because it's always a treat coming across an undiscovered gem on some non-Philadelphia International label.

Disco Funk

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

Having presented the above information I'd be interested in comments from the forum members.Personally Philly Soul was and remains my favourite style of disco. It still is a joy to listen to today.It was the class and creme de creme of disco.

You can't argue with the facts stated above. But, personally, I'd say Norman Harris was a step ahead of Gamble and Huff, with regards to club play. While a step behind in overall airplay. I started working in clubs in 1973, as a barback in my brother-in-law's club in Newark, NJ. Progressing to DJ in 1976, in NY. And the Harris Machine produced tracks were, as I recall, bigger on the dancefloors, faster.

And keep in mind that once a sound, like Philadelphia International, broke huge on the radio, "club" DJ's were less likely to push a now "pop" sound. It's always been that way. And all of the "sounds" that we, individually love and remember, were only around for a year, or two, or three at the most. Eurodisco being my personal favorite, as it forced producers to tighten-up the arrangements and brought a much higher degree of precision to the genre. But that doesn't mean I'll EVER part with my copy of The First Choice's "Guilty"! OMG! What an incredible piece of work from Norman Harris and Vince Montana.

There's a place for everyone at the Disco-table. But "when it actually began...?" That will always be subject to interpretation. Was it with "TSOP"? Or "Smarty Pants"? Or "Trans Europe Express"? It was all percolating, at the same time, all over the world. "Disco" didn't, simply start in the US. Although the genre is now a considerable piece of Americana.

As a side note: Instant Funk did have their 1976 release "The Philly Jump" (An AWESOME track, that I have the pro 12" of. In the same vein as Eleventh Hour's "Hollywood Hot".) on TSOP Records, distributed by CBS. Theirs was the only release on that label. And I believe the label was quickly abandoned for the name "Philadelphia International".

[Disco Funk]

As a side note: Instant Funk did have their 1976 release "The Philly Jump" (An AWESOME track, that I have the pro 12" of. In the same vein as Eleventh Hour's "Hollywood Hot".) on TSOP Records, distributed by CBS. Theirs was the only release on that label. And I believe the label was quickly abandoned for the name "Philadelphia International".

The TSOP label was actually a sub label of PIR (Philadelphia International). The first LP released, from what I've read, was Energy Of Love by The Intruders in '74. Here's an album discography for that label:

TSOP Discography

I don't see Instant Funk's Get Down With The Philly Jump LP listed, so maybe they originally were put onto TSOP for their 12", but then were moved over to PIR for the LP release?

Disco Funk

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

The TSOP label was actually a sub label of PIR (Philadelphia International). The first LP released, from what I've read, was Energy Of Love by The Intruders in '74. Here's an album discography for that label:
TSOP Discography
I don't see Instant Funk's Get Down With The Philly Jump LP listed, so maybe they originally were put onto TSOP for their 12", but then were moved over to PIR for the LP release?

I stand corrected!:icon_surprised: I didn't think to re-check "Both Sides Now Publications", before posting. And they do have it listed in the Philadelphia International Section, simply as:
PZ 34358 - Get Down With The Philly Jump - Instant Funk [1976]
With no track titles, nor chart position.

Heres the info from the label of my 12":
Instant Funk - "Philly Jump"
B. Sigler / T. Life
Taken from the TSOP Lp: "Get Down With The Philly Jump" PZ 34358
Distributed by Columbia/Epic Records/CBS, Inc., 51 West 52 St., NYC

Item of note:
When I backed-into the PI list, I noticed the link for Golden Fleece Records, which has only one listing:(this may be what threw my memory off. I knew there was a PI related label that had only one release. I assumed it was TSOP. My bad. :icon_redface:)
KZ 33163 - Trammps - Trammps [1975] (7-75, #159) Stop And Think/Trusting Heart/Every Dream I Dream Is You/Love Epidemic/Save A Place//Trammps Disco Theme/Where Do We Go From Here/Down Three Dark Streets/I Know That Feeling/Shout
This LP was first released, for 1 press run, on Buddah. But is not included on the Buddah list, nor text Discography. (I'd give you the pressing codes for that too, but my copy is in storage with a handfull of other pressings that I want to protect, but can't have accurately insured.)

[Disco Funk]

Golden Fleece was the Trammps label, I believe. It didn't really make many waves, although in addition to the self-titled LP, they put out a few 45s, like 'The Devil Made Me Do It' by Robert Upchurch (a Trammps vocalist) and 'One Day Of Peace' by Love Committee (who had just become LC from being The Ethics).

You saw a pressing on Buddah of the Golden Fleece LP? Are you sure it wasn't the 'Legendary Zing Album'? That LP was made up of songs they did in '72 at Buddah, but were extended by Tom Moulton for the '75 LP release. It features the band in a railroad yard and all decked out in denim outfits. The GF Trammps LP kinda looks like they're dressed up for Miami or some Salsa concert.

That 12" of Philly Jump you got is pretty valuable, seeing that on Ebay, someone has a copy that's over $300 in bidding!!! And my guess it's not even a different mix from the LP, although technically the mono flip is a remix (probably folded down from the final stereo mix).

Disco Funk

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

You saw a pressing on Buddah of the Golden Fleece LP? Are you sure it wasn't the 'Legendary Zing Album'?

Nope... I have the "Zing" LP. I put the Buddah copy of "Trammps" in storage a couple years ago. It never occurred to me that it was important until the Internet came along, and I realized it wasn't showing-up anywhere.

But I used to use it, with my Golden Fleece copy, to get in-an-out of, and extend "Where Do We Go From Here", when I was playing classic gigs.

[garrybcoston]

To me Philly Soul provided the bridge and crossing from traditional soul, R&B, Funk, etc. from the 60's and early 70's to disco once disco finally established an identity for itself.

Back in the day, there was a formula or mathematical equation out regarding disco's make-up; it was:

ROCK + SOUL + JAZZ = DISCO

Now R&B and Funk were left out, but remember, R&B and Funk was derived and evolved from soul music. There was no R&B and Funk before soul music.

Enjoy y'all and Merry Christmas.

Garry:icon_biggrin:

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

In addition to making hits, G&H allowed MFSB to stretch out in the grooves of the songs, laying a funky foundation for the extended disco remixes of the later-'70s. Album cuts of such uptempo masterworks as the Bluenotes' "Bad Luck" and "The Love I Lost"; MFSB's "TSOP" (The [/I][I]Soul Train theme song) and "Love Is the Message"; and the O'Jays' "992 Arguments," "I Love Music" and (best) "For the Love of Money" reached lengths of up to 10-minutes of dance floor ecstasy.

Food for thought...

The extended mixes were done and released in 1977, as updated, disco-length remixes of Philly Classics, from '73 through '75. Rarely, were the original LP cuts more than 4mins+.

Also, in '73 Scepter Records was already releasing promotional remixes of their material, specifically for "Disco" DJs and "Because of Scepter's acceptance of the "Disco Market" long before any other company, it was awarded the Billboard Magazine "1974 Trendsetter Award" for being the innovators in special disco mixes." (Keep in mind, that quote refers to Scepter's work going back, at least, to early 1973. The point in time when the Philly Sound (of the afore mentioned article that opened this thread) was just getting off the ground.

So, at the same time that Gamble and Huff were developing their sound, Mel Cheren, Florence Greeneberg, Pete Castagne, Bo Crane, Marc Paul Simon... and a host of others, were already working within, and catering to, an established "Disco" market. That was equally as active in Philly, as NYC, Miami and Montreal. Albeit, completely underground, and strictly within the clubs.

This begs the question:
Was the Philly Sound instrumental in the developement of Disco? Or was Disco instrumental in the developement of the Philly Sound?