'Philadelphia Classics' vs. original versions

[musiquelover]

The Philadelphia Classics CD has become my favourite disco album so far although in my opinion "Don't Leave Me This Way" should have been a little bit longer before fading out.

Up to now I only have these newer versions but I don't know the original versions of the songs (with the exception of "Love Train").
So I wondered what others think about these Tom Moulton mixes. Are they better or worse than their original recordings? Are they too long or too short? And do you think they would have replaced the original versions in the discos at that time if they would've been available right from the start?

[eddie]

All of those songs are only elongated with a few extra repeats of the chorus and instrumental sections. I don't believe there was any additional new music added to these mixes. A PIR classic that you must have the 12" for is McFadden and Whitehead's "Aint no stoppin' us now" because it has additional music added to the mix.

I honestly think elongated a song without changing the music with additional chord progressions is pointless for the most part. I have the CD and its nice but not overly essential.

[ol'skinflint]

The Philadelphia Classics CD has become my favourite disco album so far although in my opinion "Don't Leave Me This Way" should have been a little bit longer before fading out.

Up to now I only have these newer versions but I don't know the original versions of the songs (with the exception of "Love Train").
So I wondered what others think about these Tom Moulton mixes. Are they better or worse than their original recordings? Are they too long or too short? And do you think they would have replaced the original versions in the discos at that time if they would've been available right from the start?

I like the mixes on "Philadelphia Classics" a lot, but I have a dynamite 10:45 12" version of "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" and I sure wish it was on there, regardless of who mixed it. As for "Don't Leave Me This Way", it's one of the few instances where I enjoy the remake more than the original. And why did they change the cover? The original 2 record set has a totally different cover....

[musiquelover]

I like the mixes on "Philadelphia Classics" a lot, but I have a dynamite 10:45 12" version of "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" and I sure wish it was on there, regardless of who mixed it. As for "Don't Leave Me This Way", it's one of the few instances where I enjoy the remake more than the original. And why did they change the cover? The original 2 record set has a totally different cover....

I just ordered a CD with the 12" version of "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" on it as I'm really curious about it compared to the original version.

Regarding "Don't Leave Me This Way": I prefer the HM&TBN-version, probably because of Teddy Pendergrass' strong vocal performance.

[ashley_k]

And why did they change the cover? The original 2 record set has a totally different cover....

Well the original CD re-issue of Philadelphia Classics had the LP artwork, but the original LP artwork looked a bit small when reduced to CD size, and as it’s a new re-mastered re-issue with the added bonus track of People's Choice “Do It Any Way You Wanna”, it make’s sense to update the CD cover too.

I quite like the extended versions, it’s always nice to have an alternative version to play rather than just the standard version, I’m going to have to get around to getting a copy of the new re-mastered version of Philadelphia Classics as I’m interested in finding out what sort of job they made of re-mastering it, when compared to old CD version.

[Disco Funk]

I really love the Philadelphia Classics album. As I've stated before, I think this was the first time the Gamble & Huff Philly recordings were remixed in extended form. Up until that album, the album version was the only long version you could get, and the mix was the same as on the 12". Tom Moulton did a great job of preserving the feel of the original recordings. I don't know if he was allowed to really do anything daring with breakdowns and such, but he did strip down Love Train, so I don't think G&H restricted him. This album was way better than his Trammps remix album entitled Disco Champs. I really dislike the remixes on that album. I notice that Moulton didn't do any other projects with Philly International after that mess.

I have the old release of the CD with the old artwork. I didn't bother with the new one because I heard Do It Anyway You Wanna, and it sounds like a re-edit, rather than a remix, and I'm guessing it was done recently.

You can hear distinct differences between the originals and the Philly Classics mixes. I don't recall if there were extra vocal sections that were included that weren't in the original versions. I think the only thing Moulton could do is mix out vocals and include instrumental sections to lengthen the tracks. There must have been some overdubs because tracks like TSOP and Love Is The Message contain extra instrumentation that wasn't in the originals, like the tambourine in the former, and the vocals (maybe they were on the master tape of the original but mixed out on the released version?) and long piano solos in the latter.

Ain't No Stoppin Us Now's LP and 12" mixes are similar. The difference is in the editing of the tracks. The LP version edited out that section where the song stops, but they keep singing 'no stoppin' and the electronic drums keep playing. Interestingly, the outro of the LP version plays longer than the outro of the 12" mix. I'm referring to the ride cymbal drums. The 12" fades out just as the drummer shifts from hi-hat to cymbal, but the LP mix keeps it going for a number of seconds. I think what needs to be done is an edit of those two versions to make an even longer version, which would run past the 11 min mark.

Disco Funk

[Nano]

I like the original versions better, but this is a very good album. And I like "I'll always love my Mama" so much that a 10-minute version is like honey for my ears

I didn't know there was a 12' version of "Do it any way you wanna" (I have the old CD version of Philadelphia Classics and the People's Choice LP). I guess Disco Funk is right...

[thommy2458]

I have a TSOP cd comp I bought a few years
ago because of a new Peoples Choice "Do It"
mix-credited to Tom Moulton.It doesn't sound
like an edit,but more of an extension.Similar
to the Classics lp,which I think is just that- a "classic".The "Love Is the Message" mix alone
is listed by many as their favorite disco track
of all time.This CD would definitely go in my
"time capsule" of desert island picks.

Thom

[kdavid13]

One of my all-time best.

With TOM MOULTON's "A Tom Moulton Mix" and the relatively new DEEP DOWN & DISCOFIED on DEFECTED RECORDS.

[remicks]

The Philadelphia Classics CD has become my favourite disco album so far although in my opinion "Don't Leave Me This Way" should have been a little bit longer before fading out.

funny ... even at 11 minutes !!! it's true ... just as the original six-minute version dropped out just when it was getting good ..... (baby pleeeease -ya, baby pleeease -ya , baby pleeease -ya ) so does this one when at 11:00 minutes the song is still building and when it fades then, it leaves you thinking : don't leave me this way .... (oh - maybe that's the point (tongue -out)

Up to now I only have these newer versions but I don't know the original versions of the songs (with the exception of "Love Train").
So I wondered what others think about these Tom Moulton mixes. Are they better or worse than their original recordings? Are they too long or too short? And do you think they would have replaced the original versions in the discos at that time if they would've been available right from the start?

OK I'm confused (& so what else is new?) but I'm holding this LP release in my hand right now .... and first of all what a WASTE of a gate-fold jacket .... all the wonderful details of these songs that SHOULD HAVE been included herein.... ( just the musicians listed at a minimum one would think , but the background about each song would've been so appreciated). But there is nothing --- extremely minimal .... extremely poorly packaged ....(rushed?) ....

but that's not what's confusing me ....

I have searched all four sides of this jacket and the four sides of the 2 LPs therein , and I can find no reference of Tom Moulton's involvement ?????

I'll presume there must have been ... that's the way it's always been told .. ...but why/how in the world is there NO CREDIT given here !!???

(shocked & confused face)



*****

[Disco Funk]

PIR was notorious for not crediting anyone beyond the writers, arrangers and producers. It didn't just stop with Tom Moulton, there were many 12 inches in the late 70s that featured completely different remixes than the LP versions where the remixer wasn't credited.

But in fairness to the PIR stable of labels, they did give the 'Tom Moulton Mix' stamp to his remix of Peoples Choice 'Jam Jam Jam' TSOP single the year before.

Disco Funk

[Scientist]

I think Philadelphia Classics is a fantastic release.

The highlight has got to be Love is the message. The 'Love Break' section is much longer compared to the TSOP lp and has a keyboard solo by Leon Huff which I believe is the only newly recorded music.

The Love Train tune is rebuilt with an instrumental start, followed by vocals followed by a breakdown with more and more instruments returning for the climax.

Also, the breakdown near the end of Dont leave me this way where the bassline is prominent is much longer so we hear much more of Teddy singing/talking/pleading whilst the track builds to the end. Great stuff.

I think that when the double lp came out in 1977, the tunes were seen as oldies and the sounds played in discos had moved on. So it didnt sell well.

[remicks]

PIR was notorious for not crediting anyone beyond the writers, arrangers and producers. It didn't just stop with Tom Moulton, there were many 12 inches in the late 70s that featured completely different remixes than the LP versions where the remixer wasn't credited.

But in fairness to the PIR stable of labels, they did give the 'Tom Moulton Mix' stamp to his remix of Peoples Choice 'Jam Jam Jam' TSOP single the year before.

Disco Funk

The more familiar I become with how G&H managed their label through the second half of the seventies , the less impressed I am. Imagine that incredible ensemble of mega-talented musicians G&H groomed in the late sixties/ early seventies ... and yet most of their best work can be found on outside labels as they took those talents elsewhere. As the Trammps appear on the Saturday Night Fever ST and the Salsoul label burns the midnight oil recording BHY projects , PIR seemed more committed to developing their lounge acts like Billy Paul and Lou Rawls.

Scientist: I think that when the double lp came out in 1977, the tunes were seen as oldies and the sounds played in discos had moved on. So it didnt sell well.

Good point: there's nothing older than last month's disco. Also a good point : a double LP ($$) no less.

This album didn't sell well - & not only because it was an expensive package of yesterday's disco tunes . Was there any genuine effort made by PIR in selling it ???

Look at the cover :



Not bad artwork .... but, does it give adequate clues as to what treasure waits within??

The first most glaring thing missing????

The word "DISCO" -
- these aren't just PHILADELPHIA CLASSICS .....
- these are PHILADELPHIA DISCO CLASSICS ....

and they aren't just that either ...
- they are PHILADELPHIA DISCO CLASSICS with the longest versions of them ever made available

AND
- they've been specially mixed by no one less than - TOM MOULTON!!


that's the message about this music that's sorely missing :

PHILADELPHIA
DISCO
CLASSICS

featuring the greatest disco songs
of Philadelphia International Records



long versions never before available

mixes by
TOM MOULTON

limited pressing
collector's edition

that'd have sold a few more copies.


*****

[Scientist]

Spot on Remicks ! The cover looks more like a Prohibition/flapper era music compilation than a disco release. I think it tells us that PIR were not really interested in it.

Despite playing a role in creating disco, I dont think PIR wanted to be seen as a disco label. From the interviews I have read, BHY were paid no more than standard musician rates by PIR. The work was steady but they were not getting rich ! Salsoul offered them better pay and a leading role in their own music projects. Perhaps its like the steady football player who changes teams and becomes a star. Just needed a fresh challenge to bring out the best

[Jay Negron]

When the 'Philly Classics' LP was released it was received well by the working DJs.

We didn't consider it 'yesterday's news' as some would think.
Many DJs playing at the time (1977) were not playing at the time these songs were brand new.

I think that the LP is one of the most important LPs of all time, Disco-wise.
A couple of the songs ARE too long in my opinion ("Always Love My Mama" & "Bad Luck") and are better served in the 12" versions that spawned from this LP.
I dig the 12" Tom Moulton Mix of "Bad Luck" & "Always Love My Mama" (both edited down to normal lengths) over the Philly Classic LP versions.
There were never any 12"s released of PIR Classic tunes until the Philly Classics LP came out.

Also the 12" edit of "Don't Leave Me This Way" cuts out TOO much!!! They shoulda stuck with the longer LP remix!!

The breakdowns that Tom Moulton did on Philly Classics LP were incredible: "Love Train", "Dirty Old Man", "Love Is The Message", ahhhhhh delicious!!!
And the additional strings in the intro of The Intruders jam---WOW.
STILL LOVING IT!!!!
I'm taking out my LP right now so I can re-live the whole thing!!!
:-)

[mrbmarco]

When the 'Philly Classics' LP was released it was received well by the working DJs.

We didn't consider it 'yesterday's news' as some would think.
Many DJs playing at the time (1977) were not playing at the time these songs were brand new.

I think that the LP is one of the most important LPs of all time, Disco-wise.
A couple of the songs ARE too long in my opinion ("Always Love My Mama" & "Bad Luck") and are better served in the 12" versions that spawned from this LP.
I dig the 12" Tom Moulton Mix of "Bad Luck" & "Always Love My Mama" (both edited down to normal lengths) over the Philly Classic LP versions.
There were never any 12"s released of PIR Classic tunes until the Philly Classics LP came out.

Also the 12" edit of "Don't Leave Me This Way" cuts out TOO much!!! They shoulda stuck with the longer LP remix!!

The breakdowns that Tom Moulton did on Philly Classics LP were incredible: "Love Train", "Dirty Old Man", "Love Is The Message", ahhhhhh delicious!!!
And the additional strings in the intro of The Intruders jam---WOW.
STILL LOVING IT!!!!
I'm taking out my LP right now so I can re-live the whole thing!!!
:-)

I hate to disagree with you Jay, but these songs WERE yesterday's hits back in 1977 here in LA. The sound of Disco had changed. We were playing Village People, Donna Summer, Giorgio Moroder, Ritchie Family....And the LPs were pressed so low we would get feed back from the system. (The I LOVE MUSIC break and the DIRTY OLD MAN break.) People would start booing---All the DJs were complaining about this. The songs were way too long and people would start leaving the dance floor. But, my gem on this compilation is TSOP. Up to that time the only version was the short version from the LP MFSB LOVE IS THE MESSAGE--The song was extended and had new vocals. "People all over the world" The vocals that were heard on Soul Train. What a treat. I played that one and it packed the dance floor.

[whitesockedfunk]

I love this album too, I have the remastered cd and the addition of "Do It Any Way You Wanna" is a nice bonus as the original version is just so short and it's one of those songs with a groove that you just can't sit still too!

[Jay Negron]

I hate to disagree with you Jay, but these songs WERE yesterday's hits back in 1977 here in LA. The sound of Disco had changed. We were playing Village People, Donna Summer, Giorgio Moroder, Ritchie Family....And the LPs were pressed so low we would get feed back from the system. (The I LOVE MUSIC break and the DIRTY OLD MAN break.) People would start booing---All the DJs were complaining about this.

Booing???
Well, maybe L.A. was a bit different.
(see Marky's Billboard Chart Action)

In NYC these song were revered all over again when this Remix LP came out.

Where I played (Tropicalia & The Anvil) they just loved them!!
(especially "Dirty Old Man" & "Love Is The Message")
And I seen the same response all over town.
I was spinning Donna, Richie Fam, Giorgio, & VP too, but not all night.
I liked to surprise my crowd with a key oldie, now & then, and this LP was a delight when it came out!!

I seen Richie Rivera get a standing ovation at The Pines for playing the WHOLE "Don't Leave Me This Way" from this LP.
I seen the crowd go wild at The Loft when Mancuso played the whole "Dirty Old Man".

Maybe it was a NY thing; I don't know; but I was spinning when most of these songs were originally released (started 1974) so maybe I am sticking with my generation a bit much...LOL...old fogeys that me & my peoples are.

The LP was louder than most at the time.
I've never had any feedback problems with it and never heard any DJ complain about it; and I hung out with only DJs back then--24/7.

Of course the quality of recorded music has improved in the last 33 years.

[Disco Funk]

There were 12 inches being released by Gamble & Huff before this remix LP came out. Early ones include Instant Funk's 'Get Down With The Philly Jump', People's Choice 'If You Gonna Do It' (also mixed by Tom Moulton), and Soul Survivor's 'Happy Birthday America'. The latter two weren't included on any LP.
I might have forgotten, I'm not sure if this LP was even G&H's idea. Perhaps it was a Tom Moulton wish-list album, where he wanted to remix old tracks he felt needed to be extended. I think they all work, except for TSOP. He shouldn't have added that tambourine. As for the Three Degrees singing 'People all over the world', he probably edited that in from the version on the 1975 International LP, where they recorded a vocal version using the same backing track as the original.
I agree G&H sounded like they were pushing some older artists, rather than promoting new, younger acts. Jean Carn and Dexter Wansel were probably some of the newer names on their roster. But the music sounded great. I mean you can't deny that some of the later 70s PIR is some of the best music they put out.









Disco Funk

[discokicks]

Booing???
Well, maybe L.A. was a bit different.
(see Marky's Billboard Chart Action)

In NYC these song were revered all over again when this Remix LP came out.

Where I played (Tropicalia & The Anvil) they just loved them!!
(especially "Dirty Old Man" & "Love Is The Message")
And I seen the same response all over town.
I was spinning Donna, Richie Fam, Giorgio, & VP too, but not all night.
I liked to surprise my crowd with a key oldie, now & then, and this LP was a delight when it came out!!

To mrbmarco and Jay Negron....thanks for your postings and opinions of how it really was at the height of it all! I just love reading and hearing recollections of dancefloor response. It gives me such a clearer picture of those times...very much the reason why I peruse this forum.

[Jay Negron]

When the 'Philly Classics' LP came out they also came out with some edited 12"s.
"Bad Luck", & "Always Love My Mama" were edited down back to their LP lenghts but kept The Tom Moulton Mix.
That was cool!!
"Don't Leave Me This Way" was also, but they edited the bass break which 'ruined' it.