Different BPMs from two IDENTICAL records!

[Bernie]

I was prepping my equipment to do an upcoming radio show (more on this later) and I ran into the strangest thing. I went to equalize my mixer levels for both turntables by playing two identical records by the same artist on the same label. However, as I was doing this the speed on one was much faster even though both of my Technics SL-1200s were both "locked" at "0" and they are both calibrated properly. The strobe was even rock steady.

The two records in question were original pressings of Baby O's "In the Forest" 12" on the Baby O label. I've seen this happen before with two copies of "Woman" by Barrabas, but that was explained because one was an original US RCA pressing while the other was an RCA pressing from Puerto Rico. With the Baby O records both were identical in every way. It's obvious that one was transferred from a master tape or cutter that was not properly calibrated. This anomaly must be the reason why different people come up with different BPMs not withstanding differences in turntable speed for the same records.

Again both of the 1200s are in perfect working order so I decided to try again using records from a more reputable and more comsistent record label. To prove that it wasn't my decks I played two copies of Trussell's "Love Injection" on Elektra and sure enough they stayed in perfect synch throughout the entire song whereas on Baby O's they were losing it within a few seconds of playing. BTW: I'm not talking about slightly going out of synch after minutes-I'm talking almost instantly. Same mix/version also.

Question of the day, which Baby O record is correct? I didn't bother counting BPMs, but it was clear that there would have been a huge difference of say +/- 4 BPM between the two records.

[DJ-Pir]

Bernie,

Just pulled out the 1980 12" on Baby-O label (white label with sun-palmtree logo nr BO-10003-A ) and played it on a non pitch control tt. (Technics - SP10 )

It counts 124.77 in Juno sonic bpm resolver, and counted by hand with Thomas Dubendorfer's BPM counter 124.7 average.

Maybe this will be of some help.

Regards, Peter

[Bernie]

Bernie,

Just pulled out the 1980 12" on Baby-O label (white label with sun-palmtree logo nr BO-10003-A ) and played it on a non pitch control tt. (Technics - SP10 )

It counts 124.77 in Juno sonic bpm resolver, and counted by hand with Thomas Dubendorfer's BPM counter 124.7 average.

Maybe this will be of some help.

Regards, Peter

DJ-Pir,

Appreciate you looking into the BPM, but what I was trying to say is that we can't get an accurate BPM count because each record pressing has a slightly different speed to it. So while you got 124.7 my copies may be different.

Nicky & Graham, ever come across anything like this.

[BrunoRepublic]

Appreciate you looking into the BPM, but what I was trying to say is that we can't get an accurate BPM count because each record pressing has a slightly different speed to it. So while you got 124.7 my copies may be different.

Nicky & Graham, ever come across anything like this.

Not on the same pressing, but it's certainly possible.

First of all, if they're the same label and catalog number, check the numbers on the runout groove. I'm willing to bet one of them says "rev 1" or something like that. However, that doesn't answer the question as to which one is correct. It could be that the first copies were wrong and this was fixed in a later release, or it could be that the original stampers wore out, and the record was recut and the mistake was made there.

In a situation where the pitch on the two discs is close but not exact, I'll compare against a tone from my FM synth. If one is in say, D, and the other is 20 cents above D, then in all likelihood the one in D is correct.

Bernie, as you know, lack of pitch control is my main sticking point against getting an entry-level audiophile TT. None of the Regas, Music Halls, Pro-jects, etc., have pitch control. The audiophile crowd all claims that it isn't necessary, and it only weakens the integrity of the motor. I point out that I have several records that I have discovered were cut at the wrong pitch. I point out that all copies of Miles Davis' "Kind Of Blue" that were pressed before 1995 have one side so far off pitch that it's in another key. And that's one of the most famous (if not the most famous) jazz albums of all time. More than one audiophile type has responded to me with words to the effect of "But so what? It still sounds good!".

Now is it just me, or is there some serious irony in a group of people who will spend thousands of dollars on equipment, hours setting up their cartridges, and adjust the VTA for every LP they play -- only to listen to something at the wrong speed?

[NickNack]

The only time I've come across it, Bernie, the problem was caused by the turntables, not the vinyl. You know how every now and then you 'discover' a trick at home that you can't wait to try out 'live'. That's how I ran into the problem at Peter Rabbit one night. I came down to the club the next afternoon to show management that one of their turntables was shot. Of course, when I put a record on the broken one, they said they didn't hear anything wrong. Then I put the second copy on the correct turntable and then tried to run them together with the pitch at zero. Needless to say, the tables were replaced before the following weekend. :roll:

[QUINNY]

Bernie: It's got to be a pressing problem and it's got to be where the original mothers were damaged or wore out and a new set made. However, even this is a bit far fetched as one would assume that the record label would have gone back to the same mastering facility to have new ones made. You're talking 3% or so and that is way out of normal pro spec.
From what I know the BPM is 125. Mine certainly is.