Does Islam Need a Luther or a Pope?

[Bernie]

Edward Feser a visiting Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles writes how a Protestant Reformation in Islam is not the answer and explains in-depth why.

Feser begins his piece:
It has become the conventional wisdom in the two years since 9/11 that the trouble with Islam is that, unlike Christianity, it never had a Protestant Reformation. The idea seems to be this: Christianity was (so it is held) rigid and authoritarian before Luther and company came along and paved the way for liberal democracy, science, and all things modern and good; Islam's problem is that it remains stuck in its "Medieval phase," still awaiting Reformers of its own.

This analysis dovetails nicely with the conceptions most people have these days of the Reformation, of traditional Catholicism, and of freedom and rationality and their relationship to authority and tradition. It is, for that reason, completely worthless. For such conceptions rest largely on clichés whose content owes less to actual historical fact than to the needs of Reformation and Enlightenment era anti-Catholic polemic.

Scholars like Stanley Jaki have painstakingly demonstrated that the scientific revolution was a natural outgrowth, rather than a wholesale rejection, of the Medieval Catholic intellectual tradition, and the oversimplifications and distortions inherent in the standard anti-Catholic reading of the Galileo episode have been exposed in books like Wade Rowland's recent Galileo's Mistake. Henry Kamen's work on The Spanish Inquisition documents similar distortions typical of accounts of that event, and Thomas Madden's A Concise History of the Crusades makes evident that the Crusades were in essence nothing more than a (failed) attempt to turn the tide of centuries of Islamic aggression and liberate once-Christian lands long suffering under Muslim conquest - something for which modern Westerners owe no apology. The notion that the Medieval Church lay in darkness, oppression, and superstition, desperately awaiting liberation by a coarse German monk, is, in short, a myth...

I was riveted by this essay as Feser was able to tie in socialism, Catholicism, The Crusades, the market economy a-la Friedrich A. Hayek and more. You can read the complete piece at: http://techcentralstation.com/120403A.html

Paul and Johan, I would love to hear your reaction to this essay.

[Videoskooter]

Islam does need a reformation and it should start now. The only Islam we see nowadays is a manifest militant one. A version of Islam that approves killing of the non-believers and a religion that wants to rule the world.

In that way president Bush is 100% right. We are on the verge of a clash between a modern Western world and a moronic interpretation of Islam. You can be for or against the way the Bush government is trying to achieve its goals but you can NOT deny that the conflict is happening.

Now it's very easy to blame the US for all of this but if you carefully read interviews and statements of current Islamic leaders and Imams, it is very clear that they're looking for a confrontation, they want to impose their rules, they want to govern with the Sharia and they are willing to kill for it.

Last day's reactions to one little quote from Pope Benedict XVI are a living proof that you can not negociate with those people. Instead of judging some quotes or cartoons they immediately inflict brutal violence, they're on the streets for mass demonstrations, they openly call for terroristic attacks (France is in a high state of alert right now).

I think the time is now to put a clear end to those idiots and give 'em a very convincing sign.

After that, hopefully more moderate leaders will surface who can construct an peacelovin' Islam.

No mercy for the firestarters: if an Imam preaches violence and opposition to the separation between church and state in a Western country he should be arrested and the Mosq itself should be closed. We can not tolerate the deconstruction from our states by people who are misusing our hospitality.

And people who are stating that we can not interfere in Iran's, "so called internal" affairs and that they have the right to develop nuclear systems, are very naïve. Iran will use the power to threaten/attack/destroy religious opponents. President Mahmoud "Madmufti" Ahmadinejehad is very clear on that subject.

Latest news: a militant muslemgroup is calling for and planning attacks on Rome and the Vatican as retaliation for what the Pope has said yesterday.

Discuss with those people?????? Impossible! Find 'em and destroy 'em!

Organised religion is always dangerous. I'm very curious the day that Turkey will join the European Community and will clash with the strict catholic Polish people on religious affairs and lawmaking. As long as Turkey is ruled by the military, there will not be a big problem but when the Islamofascists take over that state, then......

[Boodikka]

It would be great if the large "moderate" Islamic faction in Iran would make a move on the hardcore types, but they seem to spend a lot of time doing absolutely nothing.

[DiscoMan]

That's because there is no "moderate islamic faction". The non-mudslum world must protect itself from the spread of that poison and prevent mudslums from contaminating er immigrating to non-mudslum countries.

[Bernie]

That's because there is no "moderate islamic faction". The non-mudslum world must protect itself from the spread of that poison and prevent mudslums from contaminating er immigrating to non-mudslum countries.

DiscoMan,

Discuss intelligently and stop using derogatory terms such as "mudslums."

[DiscoMan]

I can discuss intelligently, however my disdain for that group of human beings may prevent me from using non-derogatory descriptions of them.

[Bernie]

I can discuss intelligently, however my disdain for that group of human beings may prevent me from using non-derogatory descriptions of them.

Hey bro, don't preach to me as I lived a few miles away and saw first-hand the smoke from the World Trade Center and had two family members who worked there. Nonetheless, if you can't behave respectfully and discuss the topic at hand then please don't post. I will delete posts and reprimand those members who can't follow this most basic of rules. Thank you.

[Bernie]

In that way president Bush is 100% right. We are on the verge of a clash between a modern Western world and a moronic interpretation of Islam. You can be for or against the way the Bush government is trying to achieve its goals but you can NOT deny that the conflict is happening.

Agree totally. I just wish we had someone more capable than Bush and who doesn't sleep with the fanatical evangelical Christians in the US who are poisoning the issues with their warped agendas.

Last day's reactions to one little quote from Pope Benedict XVI are a living proof that you can not negociate with those people. Instead of judging some quotes or cartoons they immediately inflict brutal violence, they're on the streets for mass demonstrations, they openly call for terroristic attacks (France is in a high state of alert right now).

Isn't that the truth. Although I am an atheist, I can see that Pope Benedict was just stating the obvious. If we went by the Jihadist way of thinking we would have killed thousands of Muslims when they invaded and desecrated the church in Bethlehem a few years ago and the attempted assassination of Pope John.

No mercy for the firestarters: if an Imam preaches violence and opposition to the separation between church and state in a Western country he should be arrested and the Mosq itself should be closed. We can not tolerate the deconstruction from our states by people who are misusing our hospitality.

Agreed.

And people who are stating that we can not interfere in Iran's, "so called internal" affairs and that they have the right to develop nuclear systems, are very naïve. Iran will use the power to threaten/attack/destroy religious opponents. President Mahmoud "Madmufti" Ahmadinejehad is very clear on that subject.

As you know Johan, my girlfriend is Iranian and she always says that the U.S. should not underestimate Iran and there desire to control the region. Why other countries like France, Germany... don't get this is beyond me. Oh right... money.

Organised religion is always dangerous. I'm very curious the day that Turkey will join the European Community and will clash with the strict catholic Polish people on religious affairs and lawmaking. As long as Turkey is ruled by the military, there will not be a big problem but when the Islamofascists take over that state, then......

Turkey is a country we need on our side because they are a secular state. I'm not familiar with the issues surrounding the EU and Turkey joining, but I feel that it should be allowed since alienating them and marginalizing them will make it worse and give rise to the more radical Muslim extremists trying to gain a foothold inside Turkey.

We have a Turkish friend who tells us that the Arab Muslims don't like them because of their more forward thinking and secular values. Something to think about.

[paul]

Well, I just read the piece Bernie. Edward Feser's writing is in many ways symptomatic of neo-conservative tunnel vision. I read his bio and thus my conclusion on his politics.
Feser envisions simple solutions and rationales to religious, social, and economic issues. Add to that, his rationale has little regard for those in the system to be affected. Socialism, Catholicism, Islam and market economies are fairly involved topics. The attempt to link all of them even more so. To boil it down to an Islamic pope is really quite a stretch. While I might agree with some points, not surprisingly IMO he failed, especially with some of the conclusions he drew. I wont go into some of them here because it's off topic. Since Islam is the issue here, I'll stick with that.
All or most of you know I'm atheist so all of the religious based wars and human suffering is insanity to me but this is where we're at as a race of beings.
If Islam is to move toward less radicalism, they as the other Western religions have, have to work this out themselves. With that said even Christianity with their evangelical fundamentalist and Judaism with the Zionist are as violent as some Muslims. Therefore, I don't expect you will ever eliminate the nuts from Islam. While I have no special love for Muslims, it is not as though European and North American policies have not made situations far worse. Most notable is the establishment of the state of Israel and recently Bush's war in Iraq. I am also aware of the less publicized regional conflicts in North Africa and Indonesia. I'm sure there are particular issues specific to those areas that I wont get into because if nothing else I am not well versed on them. The elephant in the room though is clearly the "middle east." Quite frankly because so much western economy is linked to oil from the region, overt and covert military intervention from the West has the region shaped the way it is. Tied to that is the enormous wealth in the hands of a few on both sides from oil revenues.
It is important that Western democracies and certain other governments in Asia and Africa do not become subservient to Islam. For obvious reasons while Israel and various Christian governments might troubling to me, Islam is at the extreme.
Bernie, did your girlfriend ever discuss with you the CIA involvement in the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected Mossadegh government in the 1950s?

[remicks]

****


We can try to modernize/enlighten/ reform each religion all we want as the centuries pass ...they each will always remain faulty at their very core. This can never result in world peace because each and every one will always think that they are actually more superior more enlightened and the 'only' true way ...... over all others .

Isn't the currently reformed Christian thinking supposed to be about accepting the validity of these religions of others .... each being entitled to believe whatever they want ? Well this is what has developed using that “ enlightened “ model .

So in a world respectful of each other's religions..... who's got the right to decide that the jihad isn't 100 per cent correct in their beliefs??? Aren't they entitiled ? It would be an unenlightened nonreformed Christian to think otherwise .
Maybe the Muslim radicals have got it exactly right ! Maybe God is on their side. Wouldn't that be something.


*****

[Videoskooter]

Maybe God is on their side. Wouldn't that be something

Remicks,

I understand what you are trying to say. But IMO that's the whole problem. Every religion can be the rightful. Maybe Scientology is the true one. Maybe Boeddhism is the only real thing. We don't know and I think we will never know.

The problem however is that some people think they are the right believers and thus can destroy other people that won't follow them. That can not be tolerated, no matter which religion we are talking about. And I agree totally that we have to be careful for Christian fundamentalists as well. But, uptil' now they are trying to gain influence but not with terrorist actions.

Everybody is entitled to have a religious conviction and must be free to practice. However, nobody has the right to inflict their faith on others and certainly not by violence. The reaction of the Muslemworld over the past years is complete over the top, shows no reasonable thinking and should be "handled". The situation is becoming too dangerous and indeed, like president Bush says, we are on the verge of a major cultural battle.

Most notable is the establishment of the state of Israel and recently Bush's war in Iraq

Now, that's something I absolutely don't agree with. The Iranian president always wobbles about the Israelis not having a rightful place in the Middle-East. That's absolute bull! Israëlis=Jews=Judea. Judea was in the Middle-East so they have a right to live there. Bethlehem, Jerusalem are also sacred places in the ancient Judeo-Christian religion. Stating that the whole region should be Arab-only is very revisionist and racist.

Now, the way Israël is behaving sometimes can be discussed. I have no problem with that. But when they are constantly attacked by jerks like the Hezbollah, the Fatah-groups, Islamic Jihad, who are BTW all supported by the Iran government, they indeed have a right to defend themselves.

And al that bull about the Palistinians living in poverty? Where are all the millions and millions that were given by Europe and the US? I tell you, in the pockets of the late Arafat and his cohorts. That is a proven fact, even by our leftist politicians.

Iraq was indeed not the biggest threat in the region and Hussein was not a religious fundamentalist. He was a ruthless dictator that's for sure but Iran and Syria are far more bigger threats than the Baath-party was. Even the Bush administration is slightly admitting that. Of course, there were other reasons.

And you know what I think: we can have lots of interesting discussions about this all. The POWERS THAT BE have already decided which are going to be the next steps. And we can't do a damn thing about it. I predict an attack on Iran in the near future. Why? The way Syria is behaving the last days, they are more or less coöperating with the US, so they surely know more.

And Paul, please stop the one-sided view that the Republicans should be blamed for all things going wrong in the world. Who brought Khomeini in power, back in 1979???? The whole trouble started there and was the start of an Iranian swift to fundmentalism the worst way. Was the Sjah a great ruler? Certainly not but at least he governed a secular state that was no danger for the whole region. Khomeini should have stayed under custody in France.

Interference in internal affairs? I don't care! When our safety is in danger, certain "Things" are permitted! Do I still support president Bush? Yes! Do I have political contacts with Neo-Conservatives? Yes! Do I agree with everything they are saying and doing? No, and I tell 'em that personally and via our chairman who is the Minister-President of Flanders.

Turkey is a country we need on our side because they are a secular state. I'm not familiar with the issues surrounding the EU and Turkey joining, but I feel that it should be allowed since alienating them and marginalizing them will make it worse and give rise to the more radical Muslim extremists trying to gain a foothold inside Turkey.

We have a Turkish friend who tells us that the Arab Muslims don't like them because of their more forward thinking and secular values. Something to think about.

Turkey is a secular state and controlled by the military who are guarding Ataturk's inheritance. But the Islamofundamentalists are quickly gaining power and what will come out of that? If the army stays in control, Turkey can be a reliable partner but if there's a major change and the country will, as a member of the EEC, turn his head towards the Islamofascists, then we will be in very BIG trouble.

And yes, Turks and Arabs can't stand eachother, that's a fact but when they can be brainwashed and considered as Muslembrothers, then those differences can dissapear. My opinion: have good relationships with Turkey, economically and politically but don't let them join the EEC. They won't even recognise Cyprus, which is a EEC-member, so there's lots of thinking and evaluating before that step is taken.

Many European governments are swifting to the right. In our country the extreme-right "Vlaams Belang" is the biggest party already and they are not in government coz' the other parties are forming a coalition against them. And this is not only because of economical difficulties or global trade. A lot of Europeans are fed up with the militant presence of Muslems and they choose to elect parties that are based on Christian values. That's the main reason of the political change. Europe never was an Islamic region and we will not accept that they take over and are trying to change or laws and our way of living in favour of a religion that doesn't provide freedom and opposes the segregation of religion and state.

We will NEVER accept that fact!

[remicks]

Remicks,

I understand what you are trying to say. But IMO that's the whole problem. Every religion can be the rightful. Maybe Scientology is the true one. Maybe Boeddhism is the only real thing. We don't know and I think we will never know.

Well ... the one that "wins ' this religious driven drama in the end must be the real one!! ;-)
But then that doesn't jive with the modern Christain way of thinking .... which is that all religions are valid .

And with that attitude being in play ... lets just all go Muslim ... it'll save a lot of heartache ..... and since our purpose of existing here on the planet is apparently all about getting to heaven .....well ... that's what they promise as much as anyone else .... ..... so what the heck does it matter ??

*****

[Videoskooter]

lets just all go Muslim ... it'll save a lot of heartache

I hope you are joking coz' the current way Muslems are gearing up their militant way of controlling the world and their attacks, aimed at secular states and trying the establish a worldwide Sharia means:

- end of personal freedom
- end of boards and sites like this one
- gay rights??????
- women rights?????

"You better THINK" :grin:

[remicks]

I hope you are joking coz' the current way Muslems are gearing up their militant way of controlling the world and their attacks, aimed at secular states and trying the establish a worldwide Sharia means:

- end of personal freedom
- end of boards and sites like this one
- gay rights??????
- women rights?????

"You better THINK" :grin:

Just keep your eye on the prize : Eternal bliss. They guarantee it.

[DiscoMan]

Would you look good in a hijab Remicks?

[remicks]

*****
:o:o:o
*****

[paul]

So Johan, did those Palestinians who claimed to have lived in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel just fall from the sky? Are the religious claims from a population that was ~10-30% Jewish in Palestine superior to the rest of the population whose generational ties to that land date back hundreds if not thousands of years? Indeed, even looking at the religious claims, the land was occupied by Canaanites who god said was ok to ignore and take the land from.
Perhaps we are seeing poetic justice because I'm sure Belgium like many parts of Europe is experiencing an influx of immigrants. Just as the mideast should not be solely Muslim Arab, Europe should not be solely European

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/12/122739.shtml
Here is a link to a rightwing site you would approve of. If you get to the end of the article they even describe Israeli excursions into Lebanon and prisoner exchanges with Hezbollah that date back more than several years ago. This recent escapade by Israel should among other things show that Israel is hardly the poor underdog and never the aggressor. Look, you better believe Israel will ALWAYS be under the gun. What if some group decided to take over Belgium. Would native Belgians just lie down and say have at it? I doubt it. I would expect every Belgian and their offspring would fight this! Why do you have such little regard for the indigenous Arab Palestinians and their supporters in the region?
A great American President once said "the buck stops here." The bush crime family are a far cry from that. Their Goebbels machine in the media are still blaming Bill Clinton more than 5 years since Bill was President! When terrorist bombed the World Trade Center shortly after Bill got in office, Bill went after and captured those responsible. He wasn't running around blaming Daddy bush even though the republicans at the time were busy looking for Bill's semen under their wives dresses.
Johan, the repubs headed by bush run ALL 3 BRANCHES of this government! Under their watch we had 9/11, the Katrina fiasco, massive budget deficits, a return to increased poverty, a disastrous mistake of a war in Iraq, escalating nuclear capabilities in North Korea and Iran, and on and on! As Al Franken says, the repubs set out to show government doesn't work. Once they get in office they prove it!
Johan, the problems with Iran began long before 1979.
Oh, the irony. You stated that "Interference in internal affairs? I don't care! When our safety is in danger, certain "Things" are permitted! Do ya think the guys on the other side are using your logic as well!

[Videoskooter]

Paul, you are mixing things up here to prove your point of view. I never said that Palistinians don't have a right to live there. I only said Jews have also their place in the Middle-East, a fact that is not accepted by many of their neighbours. And even when Israël would give up 75% of its territory, they still will be attacked.

You don't answer the question on the Palistinian corruption either. They are run by crooks which doesn't help them very much is it? A part of the poverty is due to Israëlian occupation but don't make a saint out of the late Arafat coz' he was a terrorist and he was corrupt. He talked the talk but he didn't walk the walk.

You say that they have a right to use my logic. As far as I know we don't do terroristic attacks on innocent people. We don't get bezerk about a few cartoons. We don't burn Mosqs down because of something that has been published in a paper.

BTW, I see that "Madmufti" Ahmadinejad is very close now with your Venezuelan hero Yugo. He even got the Simon Bolivar price today. Didn't you state in a previous reply that the Madmufti was a nutty? So, I expect you don't like this "friendship".:o

And where did I say that Europe should be European only????? I've said that we will not accept religious dominiation from Islamofascists. I never said that Arab people are not welcome here. If they come in peace, that is!

Now don't misquote my words now, Paul. That's a bad leftie habit

Don't get me wrong Paul, I'm on your side: Find 'em and destroy 'em!

[paul]

Paul, you are mixing things up here to prove your point of view. I never said that Palistinians don't have a right to live there. I only said Jews have also their place in the Middle-East, a fact that is not accepted by many of their neighbours. And even when Israël would give up 75% of its territory, they still will be attacked.
Well, Jews and Muslims did live together in the region for a long time. The problem arose when they established the a "Jewish" state, Israel. Palestine at the time had a minority Hebrew population.
I believe Israel will better placed in a less inhabited place here in the states.

You don't answer the question on the Palistinian corruption either. They are run by crooks which doesn't help them very much is it? A part of the poverty is due to Israëlian occupation but don't make a saint out of the late Arafat coz' he was a terrorist and he was corrupt. He talked the talk but he didn't walk the walk.
No disagreement with Palestinian corruption. That is why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are so popular with Palestinians and other Arabs. These groups aside from being an alternative to corrupts groups like the PLO, offer the people aide that they aren't getting.

You say that they have a right to use my logic. As far as I know we don't do terroristic attacks on innocent people. We don't get bezerk about a few cartoons. We don't burn Mosqs down because of something that has been published in a paper.

Well, the logic I was referencing was the arbritrary undefined use of force you imply. True, Western nations wont use suicide bombers. Laser guided munitions are just as deadly however.
I'm not defending the nuts who destroy statues or go ape because of a cartoon or what a pope said.

BTW, I see that "Madmufti" Ahmadinejad is very close now with your Venezuelan hero Yugo. He even got the Simon Bolivar price today. Didn't you state in a previous reply that the Madmufti was a nutty? So, I expect you don't like this "friendship".:o

Well, I am not surprised or disappointed in Yugo's relationship with Ahmadinejad. Both leaders were/are targeted by bush. I see it as a relationship of circumstances and convenience. It's no worse than bush's relationship with the Saudi Royal family. These people are alledge to have funded/supported many "terrorist."

And where did I say that Europe should be European only????? I've said that we will not accept religious dominiation from Islamofascists. I never said that Arab people are not welcome here. If they come in peace, that is!

Well, this has gotten a little confusing. My point was it should be just as acceptable for Jews to establish a state in the Middle East as it would be if Arabs established a state in Europe, either by birthrate or by force.

Now don't misquote my words now, Paul. That's a bad leftie habit

Yeah I know, but we tend to observe the actions and not rely on the words conservatives use.

Don't get me wrong Paul, I'm on your side: Find 'em and destroy 'em!

How?

[Videoskooter]

You go a little bit easy on the fact that Madmufti, Khamenei and Yugo are close. That's not a good thing and you know it. The Iranian government is the biggest sponsor of terrorism worldwide and should be isolated. Period.

Take notice of the words of Bernie's girlfriend. I think she knows Iran much better than we both do. I repeat, the Iranian government can not be trusted. They can fool the weak and idiotic European leaders but not well-documented people.

The Saudi-Government? Did I ever spoke in favour of them????

A Jewish state in the US :o You gonna abandon Jerusalem, Bethlehem and leave them in the hands of the Arabs??? :o They already announced that they will destroy the temple and replace it by a Mosq.

How we gonna stop 'em? Simply, if those madmen really attack Rome or the Vatican or try to assasinate the Pope, hit 'em hard. Make it clear that if they really are planning such a hideous act, Mecca will be our target. You wanna bet that they gonna back down?

And this is for Discoman:

http://analysis.threatswatch.org/200...g-ahmadinejad/

It (and many other analysis) clearly show that the man is a raving and utterly dangerous lunatic and certainly has, what we non-believers, call a hidden agenda. Or should it be hideous agenda.

Follow the man's personal weblog:

http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/

[paul]

The US is the perfect location for the new state of Israel. Perhaps a tiny portion off coastal Texas. Israel isn't that big. The US is Israel's best ally. Besides, didn't their god command the Israelis not to idol worship. To commit yourself to Bethlehem and Jerusalem is idol worshipping. This is all supposed to be god's stuff if you're a believer so going to the US make sense.

[Videoskooter]

So in other words: the jews don't have a right to live in the Middle-East. They should go in exile to the US where they actually don't have roots at all.

The Middle-East is exclusively reserved for Arabs.

Iran can have his nuclear power because we don't have the right to interfere in their internal affairs.

What's next? Since Belgium is an artificial state too (created by the old European monarchies), maybe you have a new place for us already in mind ????

Maybe we can go to Venezuela???? Belgium is very small and Venezuela is big. Since you are planning to install Chavez as your next US president, then we can be part of the new World :-o :-o :-o

And idol worshipping means statues and images, not buildings or holy places, those are sacred venues and have to be kept sacred venues, be it Catholic, Muslem or Jewish. A slight misinterpretation by your side :-)

Sometimes you really frighten me, my San Diegan buddy

My point was it should be just as acceptable for Jews to establish a state in the Middle East as it would be if Arabs established a state in Europe, either by birthrate or by force

This is humbug, Arabs don't have a birthright or roots in Europe. This is a very bad comparison. Jewish people do have roots in the Middle-East, you simply can not deny that. (You probably will but....)

[DiscoMan]

Those lousy bastards already have the blood of one of my relatives on their hands... We are engaged in a world wide jihad and I'd give the enemy no quarter.

Oh... and Paul; wasn't Palestine once called "Judea"?

[DiscoMan]

"And this is for Discoman"

Thank you Video...

If one is a student of world history it is easy to understand today's events.
This is the latest jihad out of a history full of them.

We need a Prince Jan Sobieski once again.

[paul]

So in other words: the jews don't have a right to live in the Middle-East. They should go in exile to the US where they actually don't have roots at all.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I suggest presents a peaceful solution. An entirely new state can be carved out of Texas down by the gulf of Texas. This is no different from how the current state of Israel came into existence. Much of Texas, which is a huge state is sparsely populated outside the metro areas. The Arabs can assist in relocation. This could also be combined with the eventual end of all that foreign aid that goes to Israel and Egypt since Israel is no longer in the region. The Jewish people would have a coastal nation with it's number one ally and would be able to have minimal concerns about confrontations with enemies. A jewish family would not have to be as concerned about the future of their offspring. The Palestinians could have their homeland, the US would not be as bogged down in it's foreign policy in that part of the world due to Israeli considerations, and as I said this nation at some point could end the billions on foreign aid to Israel and Egypt.
Is this not better than the existing policy.

The Middle-East is exclusively reserved for Arabs.
Ya gotta get past the bitterness. If you can't see beyond them "Arabs getting something" then you really aren't into a solution!

Iran can have his nuclear power because we don't have the right to interfere in their internal affairs. I know it's hard for some of you but that nuclear weapons thing eventually is something every one will have access to, not just Europeans or North Americans. It will happen even faster if Bush style foreign policy dominates.

What's next? Since Belgium is an artificial state too (created by the old European monarchies), maybe you have a new place for us already in mind ????
Johan, you sound so bitter here. Remember it was your buddies in DC that describe you folks as old Europe. Why would having a peaceful solution threaten your way of life?

Maybe we can go to Venezuela???? Belgium is very small and Venezuela is big. Since you are planning to install Chavez as your next US president, then we can be part of the new World :-o :-o :-o

Relax pal. Time to take a breather :grin:

And idol worshipping means statues and images, not buildings or holy places, those are sacred venues and have to be kept sacred venues, be it Catholic, Muslem or Jewish. A slight misinterpretation by your side :-)

Well, I don't see this as a misinterpretation. IMHO, god was in essence telling his believers not to place anything above him. By placing so much value in a location over the lives of fellow human beings you are violating god's commandments. That's just my understanding however. You beleivers can work that out with god when your time comes!

Sometimes you really frighten me, my San Diegan buddy

I know it's hard but give peace a chance!

This is humbug, Arabs don't have a birthright or roots in Europe. This is a very bad comparison. Jewish people do have roots in the Middle-East, you simply can not deny that. (You probably will but....)
Didn't the Moors dominate parts of Europe several centuries ago. Surely that should be enough time to be considered birthright!
I'm not saying Jews don't have a place in the mideast. But displacing the majority Muslim population and establishing a Jewish state is simply wrong.