replacing cartridges

[smartpapi]

I'm replacing the stanton cartridges in my 1200's ,and was wondering if anyone has used the GRADO dj series cartridges.I have a Grado in my Rega planar 2 and it sounds great.Just wondering how the Grado dj cartrides sound and hold up to backcueing.

[Bernie]

On 2002-08-20 15:01, smartpapi wrote:
I'm replacing the stanton cartridges in my 1200's ,and was wondering if anyone has used the GRADO dj series cartridges.I have a Grado in my Rega planar 2 and it sounds great.Just wondering how the Grado dj cartrides sound and hold up to backcueing.

Not using the "DJ Series" that you spoke of, but am using Grado Prestige carts on my 1200's. For inexpensive carts they sound great and have held up. Granted I handle them with kid gloves. I'd go for them since just about anything is sonically better than Stanton. I used to sell this stuff back in NYC and even met Mr. Grado once-he's a fanatic and takes great pride in his carts and headphones.

BTW, which arm are you using on your P2, an RB250 or RB300?

[paul]

Just curios Bernie. From your experience, what was the best sounding cartridge you ever heard?

[Bernie]

On 2002-08-22 11:30, paul wrote:
Just curios Bernie. From your experience, what was the best sounding cartridge you ever heard?

Paul,

I'd have to say the cart I currently use on my SP-15. It's an Audio-Technica OC-9. Very airy, not overly bright with a nuetral sound and a beautiful wide soundstage. Needs to be matched with the right electronics to sound its best, but when it is--watch out.

[paul]

Thanks Bernie.
I've heard a lot of positive remarks about the Audio-Technica OC-9. I'll have to give it a listen sometime.

[BrunoRepublic]

Audio Technica sure make some "interesting" cartridges. A lot of them are crap, but two in particular, the AT331LP and AT440ML, can track frequencies far above and beyond what you would expect for something in their price range. I picked up the 331 as a back-up stylus as it's discontinued, and available for cheap ($50 US). I found out that it can comfortably replace the now-very-rare Shibata carts needed for CD-4 encoded quad records, which have a carrier tone in the 30kHz range. Quite impressive for a cheap P-mount cart! The 440 goes even further, and the OC-9 can go up to a staggering 50kHz, according to A-T's website. The OC-9 costs more, and you'll need a head amp, but it's still much cheaper than most other moving-coil cartridges. $6,000 US for a Koetsu, anyone?

I agree that Stantons are utter crap. I take it their main selling point is that they're cheap. That and the fact that you're doing the world a favour should you destroy one whilst back-cueing...

I quite like Ortofons myself, but I'm planning on getting a decent phono amp soon, so my opinions on this matter may change. Ultimately, I plan to build up a collection of several cartridges, and select the most appropriate one for each situation i.e. Grado for classical, Audio Technica for CD-4, a spherical one for worn-out records, etc.

[QUINNY]

GrahamStart: I'm interested by your comments about the different cartridges. How far does the average piece of vinyl go to in terms of
KHz. Surely not to 50KHz?
Most Disco mixers will have a top end of what? 30KHz and the RIAA curve goes to 16KHz or 20KHz I believe.
Surely the Stanton's were supreme for two reasons.
1) They were robust compared to others, and generally stood up to DJ abuse.
2) They had a great bottom end for a relatively cheap cartridge.
How old is the 500 AL/EL? now?

[paul]

My understanding from a technical point of view is the RIAA curve for vinyl extends beyond the 20khz associated with the limits for hearing high frequencies. The high frequency limit for vinyl recordings I would imagine depended on the studio, equipment and artist. CD audio specifically has a stop frequency at 20 khz, sort of like hitting a brick wall. Nothing higher than that is allowed.
As for vinyl. You or I can hear this arbritrary frequency rolloff in some vinyl recordings. Specifically, many of the Chic records seem to have a higher frequency rolloff.
As for cartridges, I'm interested in listening to the OC-9 because I might have to replace my Micro-Acoustics 2002. It's my favorite but the company is out of business so replacing the stylus at some point in the future will be impossible. I also have a mid level Grado that sounds like a mid level cartridge and a couple of old Shures and Empires from my old amatuer dj days.

_________________
Don't believe the hype!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paul on 2002-08-22 17:39 ]</font>

[QUINNY]

It's a very subjective thing we're talking about. All this talk of high end frequency cut offs is somewhat meaning less.
Sure, old analogue tape recorders did go beyond 20KHz, but generally not flat beyond 20KHz.
The real clincher is this;
Even if the studios used top notch recording equipment, there were no microphones that went above 20KHz in general. Most Neumanns, AKG, RCA, SENNHEISER, BEYER condenser mics of the period would have been flat to 15KHz or thereabouts and dropped off after that. So all this extension to 30KHz or 50KHz is largely meaningless.
I can't comment on the Chic 12", because I've always found UK pressings to be generally better than US 'cos of the different Eq used by cutting lathes over here.

[NickNack]

I was really surprised to see the negative views on Stanton's. I mean, club wise, they were it! With dj's, I always thought these were the standard, for sound as well as durability.

I admit I don't understand some of the terminology used here, high freq roll off's and such, but like Quinny said, isn't anything over 20KHz useless? What are you guys hearing, or not hearing, when comparing the Stanton to the Grado? BTW, never heard of Grado --- is it a US or International company?

_________________
When you're under the Love Spell, be sure to Catch The Rhythm

Nicky

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NickNack on 2002-08-22 19:25 ]</font>

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2002-08-22 19:24, NickNack wrote:
I was really surprised to see the negative views on Stanton's. I mean, club wise, they were it! With dj's, I always thought these were the standard, for sound as well as durability.

They're still popular, although I think Ortofon's DJ series has taken a large chunk of the market.

I admit I don't understand some of the terminology used here, high freq roll off's and such, but like Quinny said, isn't anything over 20KHz useless?

It depends. There are a few people with "golden ears" who *can* hear above 20kHz. Others will tell you that while you can't hear anything above 20kHz directly, these sounds do have an effect on how you hear everything else. I don't have good enough ears or gear to do any real comparisons myself.

What are you guys hearing, or not hearing, when comparing the Stanton to the Grado?

The Stantons that I've heard just don't pick up any detail to the sound.... it's just a big sonic muddle.

BTW, never heard of Grado --- is it a US or International company?

Grado is an American company. People seem to either love or loathe their cartridges, although it's generally agreed that their "black" cartridge is the best bang for the buck out there (it's about $40 US). Their cartridges are noted for having a very warm and dynamic midrange, which I think is why their biggest fans seem to be jazz and classical enthusiasts. On the downside, their cartridges tend to pick up "hum" from the motor on some tables, and they really aren't known for good tracking (i.e. inner-groove distortion, problems on sibilant passages, etc.). With our disco 12"ers that are cut REALLY LOUD, this could be a serious sonic problem. Then again, others have told me that you just need to be very careful on setting the VTA, VTF, antiskate, etc., and these problems will be eliminated. I have a Grado Blue lying around, but it's really not a good match for the ultra-low-mass tonearm on my Dual 505.

A couple of moving-magnet (as in "normal"; no additional hardware required) carts that I would recommend for listening (not DJing) would be the Shure V15xMR and the Ortofon OM Super 20 or 30.

Once you get into moving-coil territory, the sky's the limit. And you can't just pop another stylus into one of these if they break -- you've got to send them back to the factory to be re-tipped.

[NickNack]

Thanks, Graham. Very illuminating as always. I wonder more and more if I hindered myself by not becoming more 'technically' involved in the industry I loved so much.

My ears have never been great since getting out of the service. Add to that the clubbing and, oh damn, my 'aging' and I'm surprised I can hear anything. For the time being, since I've always been happy with the Stanton's, I 'll just leave it for a later day.

[BrunoRepublic]

If they sound good to you, then that's all that matters. It's much more important to listen to music than to other people's opinions. :grin:

[paul]

Hey Nicky. I think Graham summed it up quite nicely. Let me just add a few more things.
Women generally have better high frequency hearing than men (better hearing and all the coochie, they rule...oops sorry ). Issues pertaining to having high frequency response at and beyond 20khz was most noticeable in the early days of cds. As I said prior, cd architecture mandates that no signal above 20khz is present. To accomplish this, early cd players used filter schemes that resulted in phase distortion in much of the treble region. In a nutshell, many people heard correctly, a bright harsh fatiguing quality when listening especially for an extended period. Most modern cd players use more sophisticated methods I wont elaborate on here. These techniques allow most modern players to reproduce with much greater fidelity in the treble region.
Now for your 20khz hearing ability. It is probably still there but that frequency has to be cranked up for you to hear it.

[Masdefi]

On 2002-08-22 17:54, QUINNY wrote:
I can't comment on the Chic 12", because I've always found UK pressings to be generally better than US 'cos of the different Eq used by cutting lathes over here.

Exactly the opposite:
I've always found US pressings to be generally better than UK, Germany, Holland, and Italy.

[BrunoRepublic]

Ooh goody, I get to blab on and on about one of my favourite subjects :grin:

To me, it all depends.

I have found that, as a general rule, the pressing from the country that the original label is based on usually sounds best. This is especially true with smaller labels.

Most US records have very good mastering, but are pressed on mediocre vinyl. Some European pressings are on better vinyl, but may not have as good mastering. For the record (pun not intended... honest!), Canadian pressing usually have both mediocre vinyl and mastering, with a few exceptions. Having said that...

- Every German and Dutch pressing I've come across sounds wonderful.
- French and Italian vinyl can vary considerably. I've had some very good ones, and some truly horrible ones.
- UK pressings are usually pretty good, but there are a few labels to avoid: Pye and United Artists -- these labels used waaay too much compression during mastering.
- Canadian and Australian pressings are generally so-so for both mastering and vinyl quality.
- Japanese vinyl is wonderful, but there don't seem to be a lot of them outside of Japan.
- Swedish records are quite good as well, but you're not likely to find them outside of Europe... unless you start trading with people overseas

You can generally judge the quality by the label. Some are notorious for poor quality (AVI), others are almost always excellent (A&M). But even then there are still exceptions. For example, original US Prelude copies are almost always much better than the Canadian releases, which were pressed by the ironically-named Quality Records. But the US release of Macho's "I'm A Man" sounds absolutely horrible. It is quite obvious that some part of the signal chain broke down when it was mastered. Over the course of the album, one channel gradually dies. I recently found a Canadian copy, and it does not have this problem. This is one of the few times I would choose a Canadian copy over a US.

[smartpapi]

Bernie, THanks for the comment . The tonearm I'm using on the Rega is a Grace. I originally had it coupled with a Grace cartridge. THe rega is the one of the first produced way back when, and the grace cartridgeshven't been available for quite some time , so I was using the Grado. Sounds great with either cartridge. Thanks agin ,Ray