RAP KILLED DISCO?

[Nano]

OK, I knew this was gonna happen.
Dear Hustlebaby: you can be sure by now that I'm not a rap mothafucka disguised as a disco fan, huh? I have at least 5 times more disco records than rap records, in fact I don't even listen to rap today. But I did sometime ago and I recognize this people made the music evolve in some way. Please note that I'm telling the MUSIC, not poetry (which I wouldn't look for in disco either). An instrumental record is still music, whereas someone just preaching ain't music no mo' . And yeah, most of that mothafucka **** is just that, **** for teenagers who want to feel they are something, not just confused people who have to change clothes size every year as they try to know what the hell to do with their lives. Certainly this music gives them all the wrong examples.
But about the "nastiness" issue I think we have a generational gap here. I will ask again: what did our parents think of the lyrics of some disco songs? What did they think about the stretched out, form-fitting clothes her daughters were wearing to go to a discotheque? We've all have passed for that sermon: "to go to a place when the music is just noise, and too loud for people to understand each other, and with those COUCHES in the dark, someone can put a drug in your glass and then God forbid what can happen!" etc. etc.
Be sincere, my lady: do you think if music video had existed in the disco era, women wouldn't had been portrated in those clips as brainless bimbos? Of course they would, and the same thing happened with funk, soul, even plain old R&B with their instructions to the women to "shake it all over"! The only thing that changed is what we perceive as sexist behavior and what we think is just normal relationships between adults, or teenagers for that matter.
Does this mean I think Ice-T and all that L.A. rappers doesn't treat their women as bitches? Of course not. It means maybe our norm in this matters is not the young people's norm anymore.
I know some people here have crossed the 40 years frontier. Let me tell you, I'm 37 and I'm already sensing that feeling of "loss of contact" with 20 year olds. First it was the ugly clothes, then the tattoos and piercings... (OK if they do them, but I wouldn't EVER!) and then some new habits I can't cope with. For example, in my city it has become common for people in the 15-25 zone to sit at the door of theirs or any other's building to drink wine and talk. Probably because of the economy crisis, but also because it's trendy, you see more and more of these people everywhere every night, being there for hours, even in winter. And this is funny, but now, when I return home walking in the middle of the night, I realize I feel somewhat fearful of these guys getting drunk, standing there on my way. (Of course the chicks do not look at me anymore!) Sometimes these people (even the girls) ask you for money, not because they need it, it's just a way to do something to impress the others, I guess. They tell you rather adamantly: "hey, do you got 1 peso?" Sometimes, if you tell them respectfully "no, I haven't" (my option) they keep approaching you "hey, how come you don't have 1 peso?" or whatever. They're just 20 and yes, many times I fear them. Certainly I don't understand them so well as I used to.
Maybe this sounds close to a Compton neighborhood, or maybe it's just my imagination (I don't know really), but anyway my point was sometimes we feel younger people do outrageous things in their everyday life (tattoos, getting drunk/high in the street, girl's clothes). You used a term like "now there's nothing left to imagination", well, my friend, that's precisely what I heard my parents say when they analyzed some songs-lingo-clothestyle in my youth days. Or "there's no respect for women anymore". This has happened periodically at least from 1950 on, and probably before too.
BTW, there's a variation of the cumbia that has grown up in the suburbs of Buenos Aires and calls itself "cumbia villera". It talks about young gangsters, drugs, putas (bitches), it's sexist and certainly homophobic, not to say apologetic to many kinds of crime. It's probably the "gangsta rap" of this country. And yes, I can't start to judge it for the music value because I can't stand the things they say in the lyrics. Maybe being English my second language, it's easier for me to leave that aside when I listen to rap. But anyway, cumbia villera is far poorer than rap music, and certainly it hasn't make cumbia evolve in any way.
So maybe it's the language, maybe it's just life changing, or a combination of these and other factors. Are we getting old? Probably. I know I am... I'm visiting a disco site several times a week!

[markydefad]

The most risque Disco got, that I recall, was

"Push, push in the bush--you know I really want to get down".

Shocking???!!!!

It raised eyebrows in my day.:roll:

Now we've got the lovely young Khia, on the radio, rapping lick my pussy AND my crack" (gulp)

Nano--don't you wonder if the thuggishness of young people nowadays isn't in some way related to this foul music and lifestyle called RAP that they have been listening to since childhood and have become indoctrinated into, aspiring to be "Hardcore muthafuckas" like their Rap idols.

Rap seems a celebration of ignorance, irresponsibility, ugliness, brutality, the criminal lifestyle, treating other human beings as targets for their need to prove their manhood and feel like Hardcore Gangstas.

When will it ever end???? :sad:

[HustleBaby]

Nano
You said that the parents of people who listened to disco music probaly labeled it nasty or a bad influence. Well I'm here to tell you that back in the 70's, we went to lots of parties with our families. I remember my grandmother & grandaunts dancing to disco and the rest of the family trying to teach them the hustle. I've NEVER heard them or someone else's parents trashing disco as the young people's music and how BAD it is. Disco was the type of music that was played at EVERY family gathering with ALL ages dancing to it. Unlike rap music which has to be scrutinized before playing and this is from experience. The music at our childrens parties today have to be monitored - if its nasty, obscene or better yet come with a warning label, WE WILL NOT PLAY IT!! Back in the 70's this wasn't the case. The only albums we weren't allowed to listen to were Richard Pryor, Millie Jackson and Redd Foxx because they were adult oriented (X-rated).

I still believe that if we had videos in the 70's, it wouldn't be as graphic as todays version. Every late night on BET 2am shows X-rated videos. Its like porn with rapping included. If the hoochies, guns and money were vanished from these songs and videos, then I will like to see how much money these rappers can pull without all the excess. Especially since they sample every goddamn thing! Disco performers had raw talent! They went on stage and sang their asses off! They didn't rely on naked girls bumpin' & grindin', automatic guns in the pants, blunts hanging over the ear, nasty & hateful lyrics etc... Something is really wrong if a ************ can make a cd bragging about the time he served in prison!!! And what is more fucked up is that its CELEBRATED!!!!

I am 33 yrs old - I grew up in the 70's - yeah I was young but hung around older people and was very aware of my surroundings. I went through those teenage years of 80's tunes rap/new wave/pop and grew tired or turned off from it. WHY - because I realized that the modern day songs were nowhere near the songs my mother and her friends danced to plus it became offensive. I can't name one disco record that is offensive or demeaning to me. Yes there were unscrupulous lowlifes criminals back then and assholes who would slip drugs in your drink. But does one have to make a freaking song about it?!? And make millions of dollars, driving luxury cars, living in Beverly Hills...is that all it takes! The reason why these dumbass kids today buy this poison is because they don't know anything, you give them filth, dress it up and they will dig in their pocket for $18-$20 so they can buy this ****!!!

Nano I don't know if rap killed disco but it sure does a good job disgracing it with these sampled songs. I'm gonna leave it at this, YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO. It dosen't make a difference if rap was in the 70's or 2002 I would never listen or dance to this "angry toliet music"!!! I can't understand why you don't see that there is a BIG difference between the two. Plain & simple - one leaves things to the imagination and the other one dosen't!

*DELIGHTFUL*

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HustleBaby on 2002-08-25 20:17 ]</font>

[NickNack]

On 2002-08-25 15:16, nrgbeat wrote:

Personally, I don't want to hear things like girls sucking dick, a posse of thugs running a train on a girl,

Hustlebaby, what does running a train mean?

Gang rape. Or, having your "bitch" put out for everyone in the posse. Sad ****.

[Nano]

Marky and Hustlebaby: you're beginning to repeat your arguments. I already answered to that on my last post... maybe I write too long but it's just to make myself understood (it seems I failed). Yes, I think gangsta lyrics glorify violence and crime. As I told you, we have the same problem here with the "cumbia villera". I told you I also think it's a bad influence for the kids. Now what I'm talking about here is the M-U-S-I-C!!!!!!
But anyway there's tons of other rap groups or people who use rap in their music that don't do that on their lyrics. ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT!!!! ERYKAH BADU!!! THE FUGEES!!! I don't know what's your position on drugs, but open the CD booklet of Cypress Hill's "Black Sunday" and you'll find a really valuable opinion on the marijuana debate. Even as they preach about bitches too.
What I'm saying is you can't be against rap music or hip-hop because of some idiots talking bullshit. And you can't deny the work of the DJs either.
And about nastiness in the past, just read Nicknack's post in the "Song titles" topic by Masdefi. He explains the meaning of "Walking the dog", a Rufus Thomas soul classic released in 1963. Now that's not raunchy for you???? Excuuuuuse me???
I spent half an hour talking about my experience with younger people, my feelings about a generation gap going on, trying to be sincere, and you guys keep kicking in the same place! I wouldn't mind if it would have been DJLegal or some of the guys who left the forum but really, I expected something better from you fellas.
Peace!

[HustleBaby]

On 2002-08-25 20:35, Nano wrote:
Marky and Hustlebaby: you're beginning to repeat your arguments. I already answered to that on my last post... maybe I write too long but it's just to make myself understood (it seems I failed

and you guys keep kicking in the same place! I wouldn't mind if it would have been DJLegal or some of the guys who left the forum but really, I expected something better from you fellas.
Peace!

Excuse YOU Nano but you are getting a bit testy so relax! I don't repeat myself for the hell of it - the reason why I responsed AGAIN is because I don't think you understood where I was coming from. Plus I wanted to add a little bit more of my opinion. So if you "read" my second post you will see that I gave an example regarding parents and how they defined the music of the next generation. We keep kicking in the same place?? What wrong with you? My first post is slighty different from my second post, you are making it sound as if I typed the same exact thing over again. But you had to bring up morons like DJLegal and Fanto "you know who" as a comparison to our behavior -"you expected better from us"? Who are you? I didn't sign up here to see what Nano expects from me so I can care less! I don't need to be reminded about ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT, LAURYN HILL and other better examples of rappers because I already KNOW that they exist. I don't give a damn about rap music if rap was never played again, I wouldn't lose any sleep. You left yourself open for a response and you got it whether it was 1-2 messages or repeated messages you got the point now!

*DELIGHT IS MOVING ON*

[markydefad]

Hustlebaby--YOU CRACK ME UP!!!!! You are a MASTER of the last word, aren't you????

Nano,

Don't take this so seriously!!!! Jeez, it's just our opinions. I bought 2 Arrested Development CD's (that was around 10 years ago wasn't it????); I bought Lauryn Hill's CD; I bought Erykah Badu, Jill Scott, and some others. They're OK. If they never released another CD--I wouldn't care.

I've heard rap on TV, in videos, in the movies, in people's cars--I don't like it. There were some songs in the early days ("White Lines", "Bust A Move", "The Power", "The Show", "Wild Thing", "Push It") that I liked --BUT it got ugly around the 2 Live Crew/N.W.A. era and I find it repulsive now.

It's generational, maybe. As for "the MUSIC" aspect--I'd respond "What MUSIC?" Sampled passages from old records under a guy talking about **** I don't care about. I HATE IT!!!!

You like it. That's fine with me. I HATE IT and I totally agree with everything Hustlebaby said.

No one's gonna change my mind. BUT, that's OK. I'm listening to other kinds of music now--catching up on old Disco stuff I missed the first time around and following other artists who still create what sounds like music with a melodies and hooks and good vocals and all that stuff that's now considered passe'.

No BIG WHOOP!!!!

[Nano]

You're right, Marky... it's not so big a deal and I stuck my head knowing it could be chopped out, anyway Other people kept their mouths shut but I, always the talker... looking for trouble...
What made me freak out was that I wrote two long posts trying to list all reasons I think why rap has a right to exist or to be considered music in the first place. Also I tried to understand why you feel this way about it (so I thought of "cumbia villera"). Then, you guys answer 10 minutes later and it seemed the only thing that mattered was, again, the gangsta lyrics. And I responded inmediately, with more passion that etiquette, I guess.
So we know what we like and will not change our way of thinking. Lesson learned. Closed topic for me. Peace.

[mrbill]

I side with Hustlebaby. Refer to my 40 yr old rant for more details. Rap has become teenage shock music ment to piss the parents off. It is very effective at that. Shock music has no life span, once shocked, you move on. Rap will be a once popular asterisk in the music history books, providing no inspiration to future music makers. Look at Vanilla Ice :sad:-

[FunkMaster]

Other than a few exceptions (e.g. Will Smith) most of the rap that I have heard is either gangsta style or I wanna take your clothes off and spread your legs crap.

I don't hear too many rappers talking about family, religion, etc. Most of what I hear doesn't set a good example for the youth of today.

You don't want to call them hoodlums fine. I have my opinion and I think they are.

^^this is how you can't tell when someone gets all of their knowledge of hiphop from top 40/corporate america promoted sources.Have you heard of Nas,Chuck D,Immortal Technique,Mos Def,The Roots,Little Brother,Common, etc??Gangsta/Commercial rap is actually the smaller element of hiphop,not the majority.It's just that commercialized stuff (just compare raw Funk to watered down Disco) always sells and gangsta rap is the most commercialized style of rap.

[FunkMaster]

By the way here is my take on this...

*Middle/White America and Disco itself killed Disco

*disco killed the raw Funk sound

*Funk records birthed HipHop.It's HipHops big brother

*HipHop brought the raw Funk sound back and kept it alive.In fact,It was HipHop that reintroduced the raw sounds of Funk made by James Brown (Rakim "I Know You Got Soul") and George Clinton (Dr Dre) back to the airwaves after they were basically "finished".

*the most important Black music form ever created is the Blues

*the most color blind musics IMO of all time that people all over take part in are easily HipHop followed by Jazz.

[FunkMaster]

Did rap kill disco? NO
Did rap evolve from disco? YES
Is rap disco of today? YES and NO!
That's right!
I think that rap has evolved in such a way that there are different styles of rap these day.

There's the R&B RAP: well you know them, those tunes up in the charts these days. Originally most of those tunes used soul, funk and disco samples, but nowadays producers found an own sound, like the Neptunes, missy,...
Is this the disco of today? YES it is, i've been to many of these HipHop-R&B clubs, and it amazes me how many people are shakin their most funky moves in a disco way. And best of all: they are all singin allong with the music!!!!!!! just like disco back in the days.
I know that technically spoken, R&Brap is not disco, but sometimes the partyvibes in those clubs are very disco. (only difference with disco: Hiphop is not gay-friendly, sorry guys :roll: )

But then there's also UNDERGROUND Hiphop. In which the artist focus around the 4 aspects of hiphop: RAP, TURNTABALISM, BEATBOXING & BREAKDANCING! It is regarded as an artform to the makers and the buyers of this music. Those people are very much involved with one or more off those elements, and try to create, innovate and be openminded. I'm pretty much sure that this is not the music played on mainstream radios in USA, but its alive and kickin in the underground, and in EUROPE!!!!!!
Whenever one off those artist come to belgium, they always say we are much more INTO the music than amercicans.
Now is this the disco of today? Naaah, i've been to this kind of parties to, and mostly you go there to SEE and HEAR the performances by the Dj's, MC's, Breakdancers and beatboxes. Only few people dance on those parties, but still have a great time!!

Ah, it's all just a state of mind! If ya like Hiphop or not, just remember that it once started from disco, but is now an own form of music!
And disco died for other reasons! Mostly for cultural, political and technological reasons. And because in the 80's MTV mainly played "white" videoclips, and thats a rock thing right!?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nonkel808 on 2002-08-22 09:45 ]</font>

yes,most people that say hiphop is this or that get their opinions based off of a limited sample of mainstream marketed hiphop that happens to be most commercial of the mainstream acts.They nothing about the more "truer" type of hiphop that doesn't get played in suburban white america

[Disco Funk]

Dude, you dug up a really old thread. I think the opinions of many of the people in this thread have since changed. I know since 2002 I've learned a lot more about the history of rap and how it relates to funk and disco.

To address the question did Rap Kill Disco? Definitely not. It got killed by over-exposure by corporate white America. Plain and simple.

Personally, I don't enjoy the rap music of today. It's not just the messages I find annoying. I liked the originators because they used disco or funk tracks, replayed in some cases, as their backing tracks. When drum machines came along and made it minimalistic, I think it reduced the quality of rap music. It wasn't until the sampler was used that for me rap really became a true art form. Taking pieces of old songs and making a collage of sound to create a new track was an amazing revelation. Not only did this attract listeners back to rap music and put it on forefront of black music where it still stands today, it also introduced a younger generation of people to the old music. If it wasn't for sampling, I probably wouldn't be collecting old grooves from the 60s and 70s like I am today. Its possible I would have eventually started checking out the old soul stuff, but it's hard to say if it would have started at a much later time.

Once the industry started suing artists for using music samples, or demand giant royalty fees for pieces of old music, I found the art form declined in quality. So it's not really the lyrics that bother me today, even though I think there's too much booty calling and gangsta bravado being blasted through the radio nowadays (yeah, I'm aware of the positive lyrical rappers). It's the music or lack of it that has turned me off. I only like listening to rap from 79 to the early or mid 90s.

Rap music's roots are older than 1979, that's for sure. Some trace it back to guys like the Last Poets. I heard elements of rap in early soul and funk songs like Ain't No Greens In Harlem by The Vibrations, and various James Brown related tunes like the JBs' Little Boy Black on Breakin Bread. Wasn't there a style of rapping done to a jazzy shuffle beat back in the day? I remember as a kid seeing little clips on Sesame Street with that style. I most recently heard it used on an old rap tune by Jocko called Rocketship. I think he was paying homage to that old scat rap jazz vocal style in that track from 79 or 80.

Okay, I hope I've said enough to cover my butt for the next 5 years when this thread gets resurrected again! :)

Disco Funk

[FunkMaster]

Dude, you dug up a really old thread. I think the opinions of many of the people in this thread have since changed. I know since 2002 I've learned a lot more about the history of rap and how it relates to funk and disco.

Yeah.my bad.I hate to up old threads but Im new here and just now discovered it.

To address the question did Rap Kill Disco? Definitely not. It got killed by over-exposure by corporate white America. Plain and simple.

agreed

If it wasn't for sampling, I probably wouldn't be collecting old grooves from the 60s and 70s like I am today. Its possible I would have eventually started checking out the old soul stuff, but it's hard to say if it would have started at a much later time.

I agree.Infact,when rappers sample the oldschool dudes they're really helping to keep they're name out and fresh to the public.Just look at James Brown and George Clinton.

Once the industry started suing artists for using music samples, or demand giant royalty fees for pieces of old music, I found the art form declined in quality. So it's not really the lyrics that bother me today, even though I think there's too much booty calling and gangsta bravado being blasted through the radio nowadays (yeah, I'm aware of the positive lyrical rappers). It's the music or lack of it that has turned me off. I only like listening to rap from 79 to the early or mid 90s.

Yes,it's because for the most part it was still being made for true hiphop fans.Around 1996 hiphop started getting real commercialized because the labels were noticing that they could cash in on the pop acts.This is what caused the real talented rappers to dissappear from the mainstream and into the underground.Whats generally considered "undergound" today was yesterdays mainstream..that's how non-commercial hiphop was at that time.

Rap music's roots are older than 1979, that's for sure. Some trace it back to guys like the Last Poets. I heard elements of rap in early soul and funk songs like Ain't No Greens In Harlem by The Vibrations, and various James Brown related tunes like the JBs' Little Boy Black on Breakin Bread. Wasn't there a style of rapping done to a jazzy shuffle beat back in the day? I remember as a kid seeing little clips on Sesame Street with that style. I most recently heard it used on an old rap tune by Jocko called Rocketship. I think he was paying homage to that old scat rap jazz vocal style in that track from 79 or 80.

Disco Funk

Lyrically speaking,rapping can back to word games like the "dozens".From a more modern POV,those hip Jazz men from the 30's like Cab calloway were doing what they called "jive" which was a comedic/hip rapping style.The jazzy shuffle beat rap you're talking about is Jive.Check this Louis Jordan clip from the 1940's!



a few other tracks with "rapping" on them that pre-date hiphop

pigmeat markham "here comes the judge" from the 1960's

YouTube - pigmeat markham here comes the judge

Fat Back Band "King Tim III" 1970's (before rappers delight)

YouTube - The first recorded rap "KingTim111" by Fatback Band

YouTube - King Tim III

Blowfly "Rap Dirty" 1960's

YouTube - Blowfly Rap Dirty

[Disco Funk]

Thanks for those links. I hadn't heard of the Rap Dirty track. Did Clarence Reid use his Blowfly persona back in the 60s? Do you know if that 1965 version has ever surfaced on CD? It would be cool to check out.

I tried searching youtube to find that scat jazz rhyme talking style that I recall seeing on Sesame Street or one of those kids shows back in the 70s, but without any luck. It was minimalistic with a basic walking bass (not to be confused with the disco walking bass) and the snare was played with brushes in a 'trot'. I don't know if they were imitating Jocko Henderson, who apparently had done rapping/rhyming talk on the radio since the 50s, or if it was a legitimate jazz/scat style. It was different from the Louis Jordan clip in that it was even more rhythmic.

Disco Funk