RAP KILLED DISCO?

[QUINNY]

Many have posted to this board stating that Rap was responsible for the death of Disco.
I happen to disagree.
From a purely detached perpective, Rap was probably the most important black music genre of the 20th century after jazz. Both managed to cross the traditional colour barriers and reach out to a worldwide audience over a long time frame. Both went on to be major vehicles for future music development.
On the other hand Disco in it's purest, original form was merely a passing phase when compared to Rap. Disco would have died anyway, because the music itself wasn't strong enough to sustain it and music genres will always be superceded by something else. There were too many copyists who didn't move the music forward enough. If it were stronger it would have continued. Right?
Sorry if this winds you up, but It's the truth so far as I can see it.
If Disco did die, for me it was 1987 when house began to take over and I began to feel old in relation to the punters I played to. That was my problem, not the music's.

Before you all condemn me remember a few things.
1. I was there at the time.
2. I was a pro club DJ (1972-1987) earning a paltry living (i.e. I was in it 'cos I loved the music I was playing)

[nrgbeat]

On 2002-08-20 05:28, QUINNY wrote:
Many have posted to this board stating that Rap was responsible for the death of Disco.
I happen to disagree.
From a purely detached perpective, Rap was probably the most important black music genre of the 20th century after jazz. Both managed to cross the traditional colour barriers and reach out to a worldwide audience over a long time frame. Both went on to be major vehicles for future music development.
On the other hand Disco in it's purest, original form was merely a passing phase when compared to Rap. Disco would have died anyway, because the music itself wasn't strong enough to sustain it and music genres will always be superceded by something else.

You claim disco wasn't strong enough to be enduring. What about rap makes it so enduring? It's originality? I don't think so, it's a bunch of hoodlums rapping over a 20 year old sample. I can't call that music.

Disco evolved into different genres: new wave/synth-pop (i.e. Human League), house, trance, etc.

[jazz_pilgrim]

First of all, I would like to say that I like these sorts of interesting debates.

My comments are as follows:

Hmmmmm…. I would have thought that Soul music was the most important black music genre of the 20th century after jazz – not rap! :grin: Surely, soul music has had much more of a crossover appeal to all generations, social groups and ethnic groups more than rap music will ever have. Motown, Stax, James Brown, soul, funk, disco, house and garage, yes, and rap – they all owe their existence from that defining moment in 1954 when Ray Charles fused gospel music with r’n’b lyrics to cut “I Got A Woman” – the first “Soul” record. If rap is more important than soul music, then why does rap have to rely on getting many of its melodies and bass lines from old soul, funk and disco records?

On the other hand, I would agree that Disco in its purest form, probably was a passing phase, and once the commercial A&R guys got their hands on it, its days were numbered… I would interested to know what you others think about that, Sirius and Marky as you are more into the pure disco side than I was.

But I don’t think that house killed disco - it is merely an evolved form of it....house and garage music have not entirely let go of the original disco music, either… Take those Hed Kandi disco collections for example …

I am sure that house and rap will be superceded by something else in the future…Merely another passing phase….

As you probably know by now, I was more into a mixture of underground soul, funk and jazz that was played in the disco clubs in southern England in the late Seventies. And that music has definitely NOT died out – it is still going today. Witness Alicia Keys with five grammy awards .. And many others…

Finally, disco may be “dead” though I am not 100% sure, but it is definitely not forgotten… As was argued on another thread, there is in London a good choice of radio shows playing 70’s disco – some commercial, some underground and there is a good choice of clubs to go to.

And … there is THIS BOARD!!! :grin: :grin:

[QUINNY]

JAZZ: You could be right about soul music, only time will really tell.

[jazz_pilgrim]

One other interestng comparison between disco and rap / house.

I remember from the disco era, once it broke out from the underground and disco fever swept the world, everybody, and that means even old granny down the road :grin:

You don't get anywhere near such a wide across-the-board appeal with rap and house - it is more limited to a certain generation and certain social groups .....



_________________
It's got to be about the music !!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jazz_pilgrim on 2002-08-20 07:12 ]</font>

[Giovanni]

I believe that today's hip hop is one of the most boring thing in the world, but the so called "old school" is and remains a milestone in black music!
The first rap tracks were a sort of whitexploitation: they utilized disco for a completely black phenomenon. After "The message" by GM Flash & F 5 all things changed!
Just to let you know, I also collect old school rap records (before 1983)

[sirius]

Dear Quinny! Dear Friends!
I think, that NOT Rap-Music was killing
DiscoSound; it was the white majority, which
was (is) rassicst and homophobe.
RAP was a big part of Disco and FunkMusic
in the past like Kurtis Blow, Sugarhill
Gang, Grandmaster Flash, Prince Charles and
so many others. So why this question?
The thing is clear: Funk developed to
Rap or HipHop. Pure Disco to HouseMusic...
That´s it! Certainly Rap is nowadays so
commercial like this was about over 20 years
ago. By the way HipHop and House is mostly
such a cheap kind of music, that is not
interesting for me anymore. I`m getting
really sick hearing samples all the times
from the 70ies and 80ies.
It seems that Rap will kill itself one day.
Cosmic Love & Kisses From SIRIUS & DARKTUNES

[Blaxman]

Hi everybody,

First af all, I agree with Jazz_Pilgrim:

Soul music is the most important black music style of the 20th century for sure!!!

I like old school rap so much, all of those acts that Sirius mentioned, for the same reason, they were funk and disco tunes!!! :grin:

So, rap didnt kill disco!!

Bad disco tunes killed disco!! Everyone at the late 70's wanted record disco tunes, oh my God!!! Overplayed tunes killed disco!!
Bad producer and their bad productions killed disco!!! Sadly! :sad:

So, my veredict: Rap is not guilty!

BTW, I dont like today's rap despite the fact I've been working as producer of a small Hip Hop group in 2001. It's better read a newspaper than hear those lyrics!!

Peace

[DanceMan]

Can't we just WRAP this up?

He said...she said...this sucks...that is great....everyone to their opinion...Fine....

I HATE RAP and I HATE HARD ROCK and most 90's Pop.....and the only reason I joined this Website was not because it was called RAP.com or House Beats or ALTERNATE TRANCE....Disco means 70's to me so then what are all these people with hidden agendas and defenders of this rap crap doing here anyway...start a new page....to me there is so much about disco and the era worth expressing and exploring that all of this curiosity is just a waste of time to me...it exists, let it be....condemn it or love it if you want, but
let's leave it alone.....Remember the phrase: "When in Rome".....so We're in Rome, so let's get back to the Main Event....(another of my top 25)

[Blaxman]

Danceman,

Who are you talking about? Just curious.

Peace

[DeepBeat]

I just want to note that both house and rap are two music genres that owe everything to the DJ.
The DJ vs the musician is what turned most "mature music fans" off to begin with. So we don't need musicians to make music anymore. So what?
Rap sucks as all innovative underground music styles that got raped by the mainstream do. So did disco to the minds of a lot of people.
House has not reached the mainstream in the US (thank god) and I personally consider it disco with another name so the "disco bashers" can dance with no guilt and the youngsters can feel "rebellious".

[sutnop]

On 2002-08-20 08:21, Blaxman wrote:
Hi everybody,

First af all, I agree with Jazz_Pilgrim:

Soul music is the most important black music style of the 20th century for sure!!!

I like old school rap so much, all of those acts that Sirius mentioned, for the same reason, they were funk and disco tunes!!! :grin:

So, rap didnt kill disco!!

Bad disco tunes killed disco!! Everyone at the late 70's wanted record disco tunes, oh my God!!! Overplayed tunes killed disco!!
Bad producer and their bad productions killed disco!!! Sadly! :sad:

So, my veredict: Rap is not guilty!

BTW, I dont like today's rap despite the fact I've been working as producer of a small Hip Hop group in 2001. It's better read a newspaper than hear those lyrics!!

Peace

Perfect way of putting it Blax

Stating that rap is the music of hoodlums and scum

Shows rather the ignorance and prejudice of the person stating this then the essence of the art form.

Just like when that CATP brat came to bother us. People started addressing Rap Music as something related to Drugs and Crime and something "bad" people do.

It is the music of the truth of what really goes on in the world.
It is straight from the heart just like funk.

Mind you people that
in the late 60's The Majority of the white population thought Funk was some
drugged out black musicans playing in between their trances of alchohol and drugs.


Nevertheless this music genre gave birth to disco. And Early funk was very much like rap about the hardships of American Lower Class Society. 100% heart and 100%soul thats what makes it count.

[sutnop]

On 2002-08-20 07:50, sirius wrote:
Dear Quinny! Dear Friends!
I think, that NOT Rap-Music was killing
DiscoSound; it was the white majority, which
was (is) rassicst and homophobe.

Exactly And with Reagan came back the conservatism in Middle class homes.

But lets not forget that the Hip Hop industry is very homophobe probably more homophobe then any other music genre.

I remember a few years back when I was on a Visit in America there was going to be the Grammy Awards. ODB (ol dirty bastard) made a fool out of himself and then there was this rumour that one of the "Top Doggs" had admitted anonymsly that he was homosexual.

This caused bigger turmoil then R Kelly alleged Phedofilia.

[sutnop]

Lastly Danceman

does me listening to rap sometimes

Automatically imply that I hate disco and have no purpose on being in this forum?

[DanceMan]

On 2002-08-20 10:03, sutnop wrote:
Lastly Danceman

does me listening to rap sometimes

Automatically imply that I hate disco and have no purpose on being in this forum?

No...not at all, Sutnop..and I hope that you remain on here for a long time as you always add a lot to the forums, with your kick and vinegar..I think everyone should like, love and listen to any and all styles of music and then form their own opinion..one thing I like about the folks on here is their passion for their music and everything else we "rap" about (back in my day, rap meant talking not 'singing' ....you are very well tuned to what you have to say, and I applaud you for your know-how and fever....but in an IDEAL forum, which I would hope for this to become, I really think we should stick to the SUBJECT: DISCO and while we should list and react to other forms of musical entertainment, I think we can get carried away a bit, which is both fun and exciting on one hand and totally boring and exclusive on the other...but then I am only one voice and I am very protective and subjective of my disco as I mature....

[The Lord of Flatbush]

On 2002-08-20 08:50, Blaxman wrote:
Danceman,

Who are you talking about? Just curious.

Peace

I agree with you Blaxman......

Who's Danceman talking about?

I would like to know.

[DanceMan]

On 2002-08-20 08:50, Blaxman wrote:
Danceman,

Who are you talking about? Just curious.

Peace

No one in particular and everyone at one time or another.....I posted something by way of explanation to Sutnop above so please do not take it personally....anyone...I am very very passionate about my commentaries and I know that you all are too...I just am sick of the word RAP - so if I ruffled a few feathers, I will not apologize for saying what I said...but otherwise, I love you guys....

[Blaxman]

Danceman,

No apologize is needed, I was just curious. I realized your hate for Rap and it's OK to me. It's your opinion, like everybody here have your own opinions.

I like rap. However, I dont like the way that rap is made today. All that crap lyrics, etc...
That's another story when we talk about old school rap, it is part of disco music, yes!! Like R&B, Soul, Funk, Rock, Latin, Afro, etc...
Disco is a multi-rhythmic style of music. That's why we have on this site such diversity of opinions and tastes.
That's why the forums have various topics, this way we can discuss separately every issue, whatever they are.

Anyway, I love disco music like everybody here and I'm glad to talk about it to you.

Peace

[Outsider]

I don't think that rap had anything to do with the demise of disco. One has nothing to do with the other. And as everyone here already knows, I hate rap.

[The Lord of Flatbush]

King Tim III - Fatback band is just a sample of Funk with a Rap feel to it. One genre of music didn't lead to the demise of another.

[Jeff H]

I don't believe there's any such thing as "rap music." Disco music, absolutely! :grin: Soul music, R&B music, salsa music, country music, symphony music, etc., sure. But the words "rap" and "music" shouldn't even be spoken in the same sentence.

I guess that should tell you how I feel about (c)rap.

[Blaxman]

On 2002-08-20 12:27, Jeff H wrote:
I don't believe there's any such thing as "rap music." Disco music, absolutely! :grin: Soul music, R&B music, salsa music, country music, symphony music, etc., sure. But the words "rap" and "music" shouldn't even be spoken in the same sentence.

I guess that should tell you how I feel about (c)rap.

It seems you dont like rap too much, right Jeff?? :lol:

[DISCODISK]

i read somewhere that rap is the biggest selling form of music now in the world how sad is that,if thats true or not i dont know but i suspect it could be.i dont believe rap killed disco but i do believe saturday night fever played a very large part in it !!

[Giovanni]

Hip hop and rap has become big and revered because all those fucking music critics, who gave birth to the "Disco sucks" idea when disco was outgrowing their beloved rock, found in this new BLACK movement something SOCIALLY interesting to contrast the GAY, DECADENT & EDONISTIC disco.

Rap is born ONLY from funk & disco breaks. That's why I like the old school. What happened after 1983 does not have any significance MUSICALLY.
And if we want talk music, that's all!!!

[QUINNY]

GIOVANNI: So all the white pop acts, for instance, that have used rap since '83 and all the white teenagers that have been accustomed to and/or converted to Rap since '83 are totally insignificant are they? I think not!!
What other black music genre (apart from jazz) has been so totally and universally accepted and integrated into the mainstream?
Perhaps Rap is the current Jazz, who knows.

You like pre '83 Rap, so do I. Good for you, but please don't dismiss the rest. At least my ears are still open and I'm 50.