Santa Esmeralda

[EricHG23]

I've always thought Don't Let me Be Misunderstood was a Eurodisco classic (something about dance beats and flamenco guitars is nearly always magical--even recently check out the Hex Hector dance mix of Toni Braxton's Spanish Guitar for a recent mix obviously influenced). A few years back I bought the only compilation I could find (pre internet) a release from Phillips: Amazon-U.S. | Amazon-U.K. | Amazon-Germany | Amazon-France

While short it has really good sound (says released in 1987 but it has remastering notes and sounds better than most of the Disco reissues I have from the 80s).
However I realized I was missing out on a lot of Esmeralda greatness after falling for the instrumental Sevilla Nights on the TGIF soundtrack. amazon.com has a Hot Production GH which apparantly has several edits and is one of their CD-R releases but they also have reissues of it looks like nearly every Santa album.

Can someone recommend if the cds are well done and which other songs/albums I should track down? It seems their early albusm ahd a long a side disco medley and then more rock songs on side 2 and a ballad. I;'ve heard good things about Cha Cha.

Howabotu the albums Hush, Beuaty and Don't Be Shy tonite? or one called Green Talisman from (apparantly) the 90s?

Also is Gomez solo album any good and similar?

Thansk guys

E

[PierreConstantin]

Coming way after the battle :icon_smile:.

IMO Santa Esmeralda released two good albums Don't let me be misunderstood (1977) and Another cha-cha (1979). The rest is not as good even if something can be found on it.

«Don't let me be misunderstood» is a good cover and «You're my everything» on the B-side of the 7" is a classic ballad. Van Morrisson's «Gloria» is another 60's cover but not very disco and «Black pot» is more fusion than disco.

The second lp is more of the same but without Leroy Gomez. «The house of the rising sun» is too long for being enjoyable but has a nice bass solo. The B-side of the album uses the same formula as the previous album. Both lp's are from 1977.

Same thing in 1978 with Beauty but this time singer Jimmy Goings uses his falsetto.

Their 1979 lp Another cha-cha is their best. The A-side song «Another cha-cha» is shorter (14 min.) even if the last 3 min. are repetitive but it's more inspired than the others with a nice piano/drums/voices break (7 min. mark). The B-side has more disco feel than the other B-sides. A video here but the sound is very very bad:
YouTube - Santa Esmeralda - Another Chacha

The latter lp's Don't be shy tonight in 1980, Hush in 1981 and Green talisman in 1982 are not very good. Don't be shy tonight tries to re-invente the formula but it's not convincing. «C'est magnifique» is the only listenable song here. Hush and Green talisman are truly awful with rock guitars everywhere and even reggae beats («Things we cannot change» in 1981). The song «The Green talisman» is somewhat a return to the old formula but it desn't work.

I'm not really a specialist because I don't think that the concept of «Bizet's Carmen clichés set to disco music» really worked for the group's seven albums. Besides they were a French project so their influences were more in 60's pop-rock than in soul, and pop-rock and disco seldom mix well. Finally I think that their one-side long songs could have been excellent if they would have been shorter (10 min. is a good duration). In my opinion, those three reasons overshadow the general concept of Santa Esmeralda.

The solo lp's by Leroy Gomez are a true nightmare.
The first called Number one man (LEROY GOMEZ - NUMBER ONE MAN) released in 1978 is a bad fusion-jazz lp.
The second called Gypsy woman is a Simon Soussan production for Casblanca in 1978. It has all the disco gimmicks we expect, all the Simon Soussan gimmicks and all the gypsy gimmicks. Too much specially when Leroy Gomez timbre and phrasing are awful and besides he often sings off-key. Two songs are long versions on the lp and they are available on the 12" NBD 20140 (Leroy Gomez Gypsy Woman (12") Disco Music.com) «Gyspsy woman» is the Curtis Mayfield song and «Spanish Harlem» the Ben E. King song.
The third lp is I got it bad recorded in Munich in 1979 and arranged by Thor Baldursson. I got it bad? Very bad! Aaargh! Nothing enjoyable here. One of the songs on the lp, «Lonely night», was covered by Linda Clifford in 1979 (a little mystery).

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

In short I have the ten albums but IMO two of them are really worth having :icon_smile: with the long long songs edited.

[Chap2Power]

Coming way after the battle :icon_smile:.

IMO Santa Esmeralda released two good albums Don't let me be misunderstood (1977) and Another cha-cha (1979). The rest is not as good even if something can be found on it.

«Don't let me be misunderstood» is a good cover and «You're my everything» on the B-side of the 7" is a classic ballad. Van Morrisson's «Gloria» is another 60's cover but not very disco and «Black pot» is more fusion than disco.

The second lp is more of the same but without Leroy Gomez. «The house of the rising sun» is too long for being enjoyable but has a nice bass solo. The B-side of the album uses the same formula as the previous album. Both lp's are from 1977.

Same thing in 1978 with Beauty but this time singer Jimmy Goings uses his falsetto.

Their 1979 lp Another cha-cha is their best. The A-side song «Another cha-cha» is shorter (14 min.) even if the last 3 min. are repetitive but it's more inspired than the others with a nice piano/drums/voices break (7 min. mark). The B-side has more disco feel than the other B-sides. A video here but the sound is very very bad:
YouTube - Santa Esmeralda - Another Chacha

The latter lp's Don't be shy tonight in 1980, Hush in 1981 and Green talisman in 1982 are not very good. Don't be shy tonight tries to re-invente the formula but it's not convincing. «C'est magnifique» is the only listenable song here. Hush and Green talisman are truly awful with rock guitars everywhere and even reggae beats («Things we cannot change» in 1981). The song «The Green talisman» is somewhat a return to the old formula but it desn't work.

I'm not really a specialist because I don't think that the concept of «Bizet's Carmen clichés set to disco music» really worked for the group's seven albums. Besides they were a French project so their influences were more in 60's pop-rock than in soul, and pop-rock and disco seldom mix well. Finally I think that their one-side long songs could have been excellent if they would have been shorter (10 min. is a good duration). In my opinion, those three reasons overshadow the general concept of Santa Esmeralda.

The solo lp's by Leroy Gomez are a true nightmare.
The first called Number one man (LEROY GOMEZ - NUMBER ONE MAN) released in 1978 is a bad fusion-jazz lp.
The second called Gypsy woman is a Simon Soussan production for Casblanca in 1978. It has all the disco gimmicks we expect, all the Simon Soussan gimmicks and all the gypsy gimmicks. Too much specially when Leroy Gomez timbre and phrasing are awful and besides he often sings off-key. Two songs are long versions on the lp and they are available on the 12" NBD 20140 (Leroy Gomez Gypsy Woman (12") Disco Music.com) «Gyspsy woman» is the Curtis Mayfield song and «Spanish Harlem» the Ben E. King song.
The third lp is I got it bad recorded in Munich in 1979 and arranged by Thor Baldursson. I got it bad? Very bad! Aaargh! Nothing enjoyable here. One of the songs on the lp, «Lonely night», was covered by Linda Clifford in 1979 (a little mystery).

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

In short I have the ten albums but IMO two of them are really worth having :icon_smile: with the long long songs edited.

Pierre, I think you're being a little harsh on Leroy's solo stuff: "Get Up Boogie" was a huge club hit on this side of the ocean and I thought was a pretty solid effort.

On the "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" album, "Black Pot" is more reminiscent of producer Nicholas Skorsky's works with Crystal Grass.

In a bit of trivia, Raymond Donnez, better known as Don Ray, arranged the first SE album. Jean Claude Petit arranged the 2nd one with House of The Rising Sun. Why ? The Cerrone backed Revelacion also covered House at the same time. The arranger ? You got it: Don Ray.

Many of the French disco fusion records begins as far back as John Kongos' 1973 album is the genesis of that collaboration of sounds. The Elektra US released album (I believe on Barclay in France), is a who's who of that era, but not necessarily disco.

When I met Skorsky many years ago, he once recanted that Leroy Gomez never wanted to sing flamenco disco after "Don't" became such a huge hit. Together, the producers and Leroy had absolute magic. Gomez was a Boston native who once played sax for Tavares and gave a performance of a lifetime on SE's debut. In a way, it's a shame that perhaps he was as typecast as an actor or actress because he gave such a masterful interpretation. Perhaps the best, with the same team was yet to come...

Vince

[remicks]

*****


Most interesting info C2P.
DON'T LET ME BE MISUNDERSTOOD is a record I have to pull out to play every so often .... :icon_biggrin:

BTW YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING ....the ballad off that LP ( written in part by Leroy Gomez) was a big regional hit in Hawaii ...I'd have to order big quantities of the 45 from our supply office in Capitola California and when I'd give them the numbers they'd say "You're kidding! "


*****

[kdavid13]

I made an expanded version of "The Best Of Casablanca Records" on my iPod and added both Get up boogie and Little Girl.

Boogie had been such a hit in Montreal [even charting at the same time as Freddie James' similarly titled Everybody get up and boogie - people were requesting the wrong song all the time !!]

I was pleasantly surprised while listening to Little Girl - the flamenco touches are ever present but it is such a laid-back song.

Made me go back and play the Unidisc greatest hits all over again.

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

In a bit of trivia, Raymond Donnez, better known as Don Ray, arranged the first SE album. Jean Claude Petit arranged the 2nd one with House of The Rising Sun. Why ? The Cerrone backed Revelacion also covered House at the same time. The arranger ? You got it: Don Ray.

But... In further clarification...
While JC Petit was working on SE 2, Don Ray was busy with "Sumeria" and the highly time-consuming "Romeo & Juliet" & "Cerrone 3". Don Ray did the Revelation LP after he finished those, at the very end of 1977. After SE2 had already been released, and while JC Petit was arranging L&K2, "How Much I Love You."

And... While SE2 is a made-to-order knock-off of Don Ray's arrangements of the 1st LP, Don Ray's own work for Revelation, in the end, was better.

After that, JC Petit's SE arrangements contained more of his own style, which was a bit more involved and polished, than Don Ray's. And the combination, with Skorsky, proved to produce some wonderful stuff. "Another Cha-Cha" really is the high-point, in my ears.

[Chap2Power]

But... In further clarification...
While JC Petit was working on SE 2, Don Ray was busy with "Sumeria" and the highly time-consuming "Romeo & Juliet" & "Cerrone 3". Don Ray did the Revelation LP after he finished those, at the very end of 1977. After SE2 had already been released, and while JC Petit was arranging L&K2, "How Much I Love You."

And... While SE2 is a made-to-order knock-off of Don Ray's arrangements of the 1st LP, Don Ray's own work for Revelation, in the end, was better.

After that, JC Petit's SE arrangements contained more of his own style, which was a bit more involved and polished, than Don Ray's. And the combination, with Skorsky, proved to produce some wonderful stuff. "Another Cha-Cha" really is the high-point, in my ears.

Another point: It was Alain Wisniak that arranged Cerrone 3: Supernature, not Donnez.

"Sumeria" stands alone as one of the most underrated records Alec ever made. I fought like hell to get "Dance And Leave It All Behind You" in Queer As Folk and the music sups had no imagination. Alec reckons that this was the template for another show where someone falls from the sky and falls in love: Mork and Mindy.

JC Petit also did a cool album on WEA France as well.

I'm a Don Ray guy through and through: If you can hear some of his pop arrangements, such as Elsa's "Nostalgie Cinema", it's positively stunning..

Vince

[remicks]

*****

Great info fellows ! :icon_biggrin:

Just wondering what their obsession(s) with HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN was all about ??? :icon_confused:
Why the two versions ??


*****

[Chap2Power]

*****

Great info fellows ! :icon_biggrin:

Just wondering what their obsession(s) with HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN was all about ??? :icon_confused:

*****

I think it was just an obvious choice to cover since The Animals had hits and did both songs originally.

And speaking of covers, many of you have Alec's "Paris Connection" LP, so here's Barry Ryan's original version of "Eloise" which shows how much of the song was actually retained when it was re-recorded on Casablanca.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbJR_e8exs

God, I love Youtube !

Vince

Vince

[remicks]

I think it was just an obvious choice to cover since The Animals had hits and did both songs originally.



Vince

I'm surprised (if my memory is correct) that the song didn't do better ...I recall the album not selling nearly as well as SE1 ..... Although I think part of the problem is that lyrically the song isn't good dance floor material ...


But still word must have been out that the one camp was already making a version of HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN .... why then bother with another one ...... :icon_confused::icon_confused::icon_confused: ......




_________________________________



Concerning YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING

I thought there was an additional twist to the story as to why my request for this single was greeted with such surprise ....... YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING was a big radio hit for Hawaii in .... '78-'79!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek:

The shock was from my requesting so many copies of the older LP !
Ordering an old disco LP ??? And in quantities !!! ??? Unheard of !!!


Here it is dropping on the charts in February '79

February 19, 1979

23- 21 --- SOMEWHERE IN THE NIGHT --- Barry Manilow
19- 22 --- TOO MUCH HEAVEN --- Bee Gees
28- 23 --- STORMY --- Santana
29- 24 --- I GOT MY MIND MADE UP --- Instant Funk
30- 25 --- DON'T CRY OUT LOUD --- Melissa Manchester
-- - 26 --- WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES --- Doobie Brothers
20- 27 --- SHARING THE NIGHT TOGETHER --- Dr. Hook
22- 28 --- YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING --- Santa Esmeralda



******

[Chap2Power]

I'm surprised (if my memory is correct) that the song didn't do better ...I recall the album not selling nearly as well as SE1 ..... Although I think part of the problem is that lyrically the song isn't good dance floor material ...


But still word must have been out that the one camp was already making a version of HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN .... why then bother with another one ...... :icon_confused::icon_confused::icon_confused: ......




_________________________________



Concerning YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING

I thought there was an additional twist to the story as to why my request for this single was greeted with such surprise ....... YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING was a big radio hit in .... '78-79!! :icon_eek: :icon_eek:

Here it is dropping off the charts in February '79

February 19, 1979

23- 21 --- SOMEWHERE IN THE NIGHT --- Barry Manilow
19- 22 --- TOO MUCH HEAVEN --- Bee Gees
28- 23 --- STORMY --- Santana
29- 24 --- I GOT MY MIND MADE UP --- Instant Funk
30- 25 --- DON'T CRY OUT LOUD --- Melissa Manchester
-- - 26 --- WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES --- Doobie Brothers
20- 27 --- SHARING THE NIGHT TOGETHER --- Dr. Hook
22- 28 --- YOU'RE MY EVERYTHING --- Santa Esmeralda



******

Steven and I are having a friendly debate our previous back and forth posts, but I sat with Nicholas Skorsky in the early 80's. I remember him saying that he was still upset about his former partner selling the publishing on "You're My Everything" to Warner Chappell, as it truly has become an evergreen, or a forever classic. The other points besides what I've said previously as to Leroy Gomez's departure also pointed to the fact it was in the SE camp that "House of the Rising Sun" was essentially a done deal internally, and that the project got scooped.

The amazing thing about disco is that evolution is a big part of the game. Perhaps doing another cover was simply not the right choice. While hindsight may be 20/20 now, the key honestly was that "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" cause a worldwide sensation because it was a first listen blockbuster. You WANTED to know what it was and where you could buy it. It was everything then, and remains something special now, having been used in Kill Bill and having it's clapping flamenco breakdown used at everywhere from Yankee Stadium to sports stadiums as an anthem.

The follow up, unfortunately, did not.

Vince

[remicks]

Steven and I are having a friendly debate our previous back and forth posts, but I sat with Nicholas Skorsky in the early 80's. I remember him saying that he was still upset about his former partner selling the publishing on "You're My Everything" to Warner Chappell, as it truly has become an evergreen, or a forever classic. The other points besides what I've said previously as to Leroy Gomez's departure also pointed to the fact it was in the SE camp that "House of the Rising Sun" was essentially a done deal internally, and that the project got scooped.

I still don't understand "the why" behind it being scooped ... but that's OK .....:icon_mrgreen::icon_cool:

The amazing thing about disco is that evolution is a big part of the game. Perhaps doing another cover was simply not the right choice. While hindsight may be 20/20 now, the key honestly was that "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" cause a worldwide sensation because it was a first listen blockbuster. You WANTED to know what it was and where you could buy it. It was everything then, and remains something special now, having been used in Kill Bill and having it's clapping flamenco breakdown used at everywhere from Yankee Stadium to sports stadiums as an anthem.

The follow up, unfortunately, did not.

Vince

You're right and well said. .
That first release ....DON'T LET ME BE MISUNDERSTOOD was so fresh and captivating ... it turned heads and ears .... HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN did sound like what it indeed was : a follow-up ... and the dance floor could be very picky ... sorry, we already did that .....


*****

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

Another point: It was Alain Wisniak that arranged Cerrone 3: Supernature, not Donnez.

Can't agree with you, there, Vince. At least, not based on the information that's available to me.

Although I've found a quote that states Wisniak was the arranger, it seems to have been cut-&-pasted into a few Cerrone-related web-pages. (Much the way those two, horribly inaccurate, Alec R. Costandinos bios have been piece-meal circulated.) So, I don't put much faith in it. And posted on the Web, too, is that in 1978, Cerrone won "Disco Arranger of The Year"! (Whether he won it, or not...) What did Cerrone ever "arrange"???:icon_confused: What I can't find, is anything from Wisniak, himself, taking credit for arranging "Supernature".

As for the text of the actual recordings:

Cerrone 3 actually lists no "arranger". Read the original cover and label, front-to-back. As usual, Cerrone is notorious for omitting creative credits on his LPs. With the creative members on his projects being relegated to the obscure relevance of "Special Thanks" Also, too, his recollections of the time have been proven, time-after-time, to be revisionist, at best.

Love In C-Minor: No "arranger" credited. "Thank you Don Ray and R. Costandinos for your talent and artistry" (It's become common knowledge that Don Ray arranged the LP. At the very least, the horns & strings.)

Cerrone's Paradise: No "arranger" credited. "To my talented friends... Thanks to Don Ray. Thanks to Wisniak. Thanks to L. Lovich." (In that order. The only mention any of them get.)

Cerrone 3 - Supernature: No "arranger" credited. "Many thanks to... Don Ray - A Wisniak - L. Lovich, for their kindness, talent & comprehension." (In that order. And this is the 2nd time Lene Lovich didn't receive writing credit. Particularly offensive, as Lene came up with the concept for, and (with Wisniak) wrote "Supernature". As well as "Give Me Love".)

Cerrone 4 - The Golden Touch: Finally, on the 4th LP, buried at the bottom of the sleeve-insert, reads; "Lene Lovich translated the lyrics. Don Ray signed the arrangements."

In addition: "Je Suis Music", "Standing In The Rain" and "Got To Have Loving", basically, sound like "Supernature Parts 2, 3 and 4" . The basic orchestral foundations and structures of all 4 songs, is the same.

"Sumeria" stands alone as one of the most underrated records Alec ever made. ... Alec reckons that this was the template for another show where someone falls from the sky and falls in love: Mork and Mindy.

I couldn't agree more! If anyone had been smart enough to do a full-on remix of "Dance, And Leave It All behind You", it could've been a smash follow-up to L&K's "I Found Love Now That I've Found You"! The tempo, arrangements and chord progressions are almost identical. (Seriously... You can sing the chorus of one, right on-top of the other.) Due to Casablanca's focusing on the b-side, for it's promo 12" push, I'll always feel that an almost effortless chance for success, was lost.

In the same arena as your "Mork & Mindy" reference... I'd always felt, from the day I first heard it, that Alec's inspiration for "Sumeria", was the David Bowie film "The Man Who Fell To Earth". Released just over a year prior to "Sumeria".

In the same way that "Supernature" (with it's title track and cover-art) was a direct nod to "The Isle of Dr. Moreau". Which, coincidentally, was released at the exact same time Cerrone started the recording sessions for "Supernature". He did ask Lene to come-up with something "futuristic". (I can find the direct quote, if you want me to. It's saved somewhere on my music computer with all my Cerrone/Lene, Alec, etc... research info.) Perhaps, after he saw the film? Hmmm...?

JC Petit also did a cool album on WEA France as well.

Do you have any of Alec's solo singles, from the Barclay years? J.C. Petit did most, if not all of the arrangements. And it's fairly obvious, when they were trying to emulate a more American sound. J.C. could re-create trends with amazing accuracy. Their take on Burt Bacharach, was better than Burt Bacharach! And, though there was no hint in any of those earlier recordings, of the French Disco Sound that was to come, Alec's voice was always wonderful. And J.C.'s arrangements were consistently beautiful.

On a completely personal note... I've always felt that, of Alec's pop-oriented releases, J.C. Petit's arrangement for "How Much, How Much, I Love You", was the pinnacle of the Love & Kisses sound. The arrangement on that song is so richly complete and intricate, that I can STILL listen to it, intently, with headphones, and find some-little-somethin', that I'd never noticed before. My favorite part being the banjo, that comes out of nowhere, about 3/4 of the way in. (at the lyrical point: "Love You Like Nobody's Loved You, Kiss You Like Nobody's Kissed You") J.C. Petit plays the banjo. I love that he snuck-in a little piece of the spotlight, for himself.

"Sphynx" was Alec's absolute masterpiece. In my opinion, with this LP (particularly "Judas Iscariot"), he created 20th Century classical music.

And, if Paris Connection had been recorded as a Love & Kisses LP, with Alec, Stephen, Sue, Stephanie, Joanne, Vicki and Sunny doing the vocals, in the same back-and-forth style as "How Much I Love You" (instead of the Righteous Brothers imitation), Love & Kisses would've had one more BIG hit in their discography.

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

Steven and I are having a friendly debate our previous back and forth posts...

News to me... I think of us more as, 2 Disco-Geezers, who've been around the block a zillion times. With a ton of verifiable info to share with those that haven't. So they don't have to accept rumour-as-fact. Disco Sentinels, as it were.

The other points besides what I've said previously as to Leroy Gomez's departure also pointed to the fact it was in the SE camp that "House of the Rising Sun" was essentially a done deal internally, and that the project got scooped.

But SE did get their version out a couple months sooner. The single of SE's version was released in Europe, on Philips in October of 1977. Revelation's version wasn't recorded until November & December of 1977.

The song's failure, in my mind, was 2-fold...
First: Casablanca didn't release it in the US, until 1978. After the Revelation version was available and had already started to move, in the US on import. I believe that Casablanca would have done all they could, to ensure that none of the Philips copies made it across the pond, prior to their release of it. Which, in backfiring, gave the Revelation version room to grow.

Second: It was too rock oriented for Disco audiences. "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" had so many Hi-NRG elements packed into it. "House Of The Rising Sun" just didn't translate to Disco in the same way. Even with a copycat arrangement. Leroy Gomez gave a great, pop male-vocal. Jimmy Goings' vocal had a much harder edge. Maybe too hard-edged for Disco, at that point.

The saving grace for Revelation's version was that the back-ups were the usual French Disco girls, from the birds of paris. I feel they took-the-edge-off the harsh rock male lead-vocal. And made it sound more familiar to crowds who were accustomed to the French Disco Sound of Love & Kisses, Cerrone, The Syncophonic Orchestra, etc...

Anyway... That's why I played the Revelation version. And not the Santa Esmerelda.

[remicks]

*****

Hello its me!!!:icon_biggrin: ...again....


I'm finding this fascinating ... thanks to you both for sharing this history :icon_biggrin:.

I'm still stuck on this part of it ..... which I find curious .

Originally Posted by STEPHEN L FREEMAN:

But SE did get their version out a couple months sooner. The single of SE's version was released in Europe, on Philips in October of 1977. Revelation's version wasn't recorded until November & December of 1977.

What I'm not grasping about this is ----

Since SE had already recorded and released their version in Oct of '77 .....why in the world did Don Ray spend time, MONEY, and energy on yet another version ?? :icon_confused::icon_confused:

Sorry I don't understand .....


Especially since as has been noted the song wasn't all that to begin with ... in a disco sense ...yes it would provide yet another Animal's tune to cover but even at that, so what ....( Gloria Gaynor didn't keep doing J5 tunes after the success of NEVER CAN SAY GOODBYE ) regardless , once the SE version was a done deal ..... move on to other things !! :icon_mrgreen:

______________


---- Anybody know ( Marky ?) how the two HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN s did chart-wise ??



*****

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

why in the world did Don Ray spend time, MONEY, and energy on yet another version ??

Not Don Ray...
Cerrone's money was behind the Revelation LP, on CROCOS/Malligator.
Don Ray "arranged" it.

Other than that... I have no idea why they were done at the same time.

Then again...
Remember the 3 "Love Hangovers" that were, almost simultaneously released?
The 2 versions of "Surrender"?
AND :icon_mrgreen: the 2 "Love In C-Minors"?:icon_eek::icon_confused::icon_lol:

In the end, I guess the only people who can explain those decisions, are the ones who made them.

[Chap2Power]

[quote=STEPHEN L FREEMAN;146418]Can't agree with you, there, Vince. At least, not based on the information that's available to me.

Although I've found a quote that states Wisniak was the arranger, it seems to have been cut-&-pasted into a few Cerrone-related web-pages. (Much the way those two, horribly inaccurate, Alec R. Costandinos bios have been piece-meal circulated.) So, I don't put much faith in it. And posted on the Web, too, is that in 1978, Cerrone won "Disco Arranger of The Year"! (Whether he won it, or not...) What did Cerrone ever "arrange"???:icon_confused: What I can't find, is anything from Wisniak, himself, taking credit for arranging "Supernature".

As for the text of the actual recordings:

Cerrone 3 actually lists no "arranger". Read the original cover and label, front-to-back. As usual, Cerrone is notorious for omitting creative credits on his LPs. With the creative members on his projects being relegated to the obscure relevance of "Special Thanks" Also, too, his recollections of the time have been proven, time-after-time, to be revisionist, at best.

Love In C-Minor: No "arranger" credited. "Thank you Don Ray and R. Costandinos for your talent and artistry" (It's become common knowledge that Don Ray arranged the LP. At the very least, the horns & strings.)

Cerrone's Paradise: No "arranger" credited. "To my talented friends... Thanks to Don Ray. Thanks to Wisniak. Thanks to L. Lovich." (In that order. The only mention any of them get.)

Cerrone 3 - Supernature: No "arranger" credited. "Many thanks to... Don Ray - A Wisniak - L. Lovich, for their kindness, talent & comprehension." (In that order. And this is the 2nd time Lene Lovich didn't receive writing credit. Particularly offensive, as Lene came up with the concept for, and (with Wisniak) wrote "Supernature". As well as "Give Me Love".)

Cerrone 4 - The Golden Touch: Finally, on the 4th LP, buried at the bottom of the sleeve-insert, reads; "Lene Lovich translated the lyrics. Don Ray signed the arrangements."

In addition: "Je Suis Music", "Standing In The Rain" and "Got To Have Loving", basically, sound like "Supernature Parts 2, 3 and 4" . The basic orchestral foundations and structures of all 4 songs, is the same.

I couldn't agree more! If anyone had been smart enough to do a full-on remix of "Dance, And Leave It All behind You", it could've been a smash follow-up to L&K's "I Found Love Now That I've Found You"! The tempo, arrangements and chord progressions are almost identical. (Seriously... You can sing the chorus of one, right on-top of the other.) Due to Casablanca's focusing on the b-side, for it's promo 12" push, I'll always feel that an almost effortless chance for success, was lost.

In the same arena as your "Mork & Mindy" reference... I'd always felt, from the day I first heard it, that Alec's inspiration for "Sumeria", was the David Bowie film "The Man Who Fell To Earth". Released just over a year prior to "Sumeria".

In the same way that "Supernature" (with it's title track and cover-art) was a direct nod to "The Isle of Dr. Moreau". Which, coincidentally, was released at the exact same time Cerrone started the recording sessions for "Supernature". He did ask Lene to come-up with something "futuristic". (I can find the direct quote, if you want me to. It's saved somewhere on my music computer with all my Cerrone/Lene, Alec, etc... research info.) Perhaps, after he saw the film? Hmmm...?

Do you have any of Alec's solo singles, from the Barclay years? J.C. Petit did most, if not all of the arrangements. And it's fairly obvious, when they were trying to emulate a more American sound. J.C. could re-create trends with amazing accuracy. Their take on Burt Bacharach, was better than Burt Bacharach! And, though there was no hint in any of those earlier recordings, of the French Disco Sound that was to come, Alec's voice was always wonderful. And J.C.'s arrangements were consistently beautiful.

On a completely personal note... I've always felt that, of Alec's pop-oriented releases, J.C. Petit's arrangement for "How Much, How Much, I Love You", was the pinnacle of the Love & Kisses sound. The arrangement on that song is so richly complete and intricate, that I can STILL listen to it, intently, with headphones, and find some-little-somethin', that I'd never noticed before. My favorite part being the banjo, that comes out of nowhere, about 3/4 of the way in. (at the lyrical point: "Love You Like Nobody's Loved You, Kiss You Like Nobody's Kissed You") J.C. Petit plays the banjo. I love that he snuck-in a little piece of the spotlight, for himself.


"Sphinx" was Alec's absolute masterpiece. In my opinion, with this LP (particularly "Judas Iscariot"), he created 20th Century classical music.

And, if Paris Connection had been recorded as a Love & Kisses LP, with Alec, Stephen, Sue, Stephanie, Joanne, Vicki and Sunny doing the vocals, in the same back-and-forth style as "How Much I Love You" (instead of the Righteous Brothers imitation), Love & Kisses would've had one more BIG hit in their discography.[/quote

Boy, we are a feisty bunch, aren't we ?

There is no question that Cerrone is no doubt, a bit of a meglomaniac, as much as we all love his music. But we'll just be contentious with one another and I'll still put it here: if you were Cerrone's co-writer, you probably did most of the arrangements. Because I know for a fact that Alec did a TON of work on the "Love In C Minor" album. This was an off-shoot of them working together on the Kongas album that Barclay released and Salsoul remixed. After Love In C Minor, they fell out. And Love & Kisses was born.

There is no doubt in my mind that Alain Wisniak arranged the "Supernature" album, so I also credit him with doing the arrangements on some of Cerrone's finest work, including "Love Is Here"...one of my real favourites..You are very right that he is notorious for eliminating credits.

On the Lene Lovich front, it is well known that she is the lyricist, not only on this album but also on Don Ray's record. But, Cerrone, as he did with my friend Pamela Forrest essentially lists them as translators or adaptors, and therefore, they share the lyric writing shares.

Agree on the Golden Touch part. This is so long that I didn't read all the way down and am responding section by section....

I think the Je Suis/Standing/Got To comment is a little biting...but, having said that, to me this is around the time his best output was being created. I would up the ante here and say to listen to "Look For Love" from Cerrone IV, a near-variation in themes becuase it's basically the same verse being sung over and over throughout the 10 minute 10 second track..

On Sumeria,
Dance was 4:21 of love and pain. I Loved the song to death and it was painful trying to mix in and out and there should have been a longer version of it.

On Sphinx,
Here in Toronto, at the time, this album was a picture of controversy. Some people here just hated it to death. I think for some it was a difficult record to play, but I love the concept and production myself. Worth having for sure.

The version of Eloise that Alec did here, remains one of my favourites of his recordings, mostly because it was almost Costandinos honouring one of his favourite songs (and yes, I am paraphrasing).....But I wish I could remix it. I even told Alec I wanted to !

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

This is so long that I didn't read all the way down and am responding section by section....

Pant... Pant... Pant...
PHEW!
aaaaaand breeeeeaaaathe

Well done, my friend. I enjoyed that.

[Chap2Power]

News to me... I think of us more as, 2 Disco-Geezers, who've been around the block a zillion times. With a ton of verifiable info to share with those that haven't. So they don't have to accept rumour-as-fact. Disco Sentinels, as it were.



But SE did get their version out a couple months sooner. The single of SE's version was released in Europe, on Philips in October of 1977. Revelation's version wasn't recorded until November & December of 1977.

The song's failure, in my mind, was 2-fold...
First: Casablanca didn't release it in the US, until 1978. After the Revelation version was available and had already started to move, in the US on import. I believe that Casablanca would have done all they could, to ensure that none of the Philips copies made it across the pond, prior to their release of it. Which, in backfiring, gave the Revelation version room to grow.

Second: It was too rock oriented for Disco audiences. "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" had so many Hi-NRG elements packed into it. "House Of The Rising Sun" just didn't translate to Disco in the same way. Even with a copycat arrangement. Leroy Gomez gave a great, pop male-vocal. Jimmy Goings' vocal had a much harder edge. Maybe too hard-edged for Disco, at that point.

The saving grace for Revelation's version was that the back-ups were the usual French Disco girls, from the birds of paris. I feel they took-the-edge-off the harsh rock male lead-vocal. And made it sound more familiar to crowds who were accustomed to the French Disco Sound of Love & Kisses, Cerrone, The Syncophonic Orchestra, etc...

Anyway... That's why I played the Revelation version. And not the Santa Esmerelda.

As to not confuse our friends, this group is called "Revelacion", who later released a side long, inspired by Music of Life song called "Don't Give A Damn" that was excellent as well...Revelation I believed did the original version of "You To Me Are Everything" on RSO.

As well, I think Goings sounded like they wanted him to be another Leroy, and there was only one, and was only ever gong to be one.

By the way, I love being senitel. I've been called MUCH worse...

Vince

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

As to not confuse our friends, this group is called "Revelacion", who later released a side long, inspired by Music of Life song called "Don't Give A Damn" that was excellent as well...

Ahhh... Theres' only so much I can catch, in editing.
I knew, we knew, I knew...

By the way, I love being senitel. I've been called MUCH worse...

As not to confuse our friends, a "senitel" is...

[Chap2Power]

Ahhh... Theres' only so much I can catch, in editing.
I knew, we knew, I knew...



As not to confuse our friends, a "senitel" is...

I thought a senitel was a remix of a sentinel...that's my story and I'm sticking to it..

Vince

[Dirk Diggler]

I still don't understand "the why" behind it being scooped ... but that's OK .....:icon_mrgreen::icon_cool:

You're right and well said. .
That first release ....DON'T LET ME BE MISUNDERSTOOD was so fresh and captivating ... it turned heads and ears .... HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN did sound like what it indeed was : a follow-up ... and the dance floor could be very picky ... sorry, we already did that .....


*****

I have been reading this thread with much attention as this is great stuff to catch up on.

The reason I'm posting is that I heard a totally different story.

I came to my ears that 'House of the Rising Sun' was Cerrone's reply to the people behind SE because he didn't got to release the initial project 'Don't let me be misunderstood'. I'm not saying this is correct. However few people have told me Cerrone was in the running of producing 'Don't let me misunderstood', and didn't make it in the end. 'House' was his reply, 'Revelacion' being his alter ego.
I always thought it made sense, as Cerrone's work never included gipsy guitars, and he never used alter ego's at that time.

If this information is incorrect, I would like to know. If so, many Cerrone fans might be disappointed.

Thanks!

[Chap2Power]

I have been reading this thread with much attention as this is great stuff to catch up on.

The reason I'm posting is that I heard a totally different story.

I came to my ears that 'House of the Rising Sun' was Cerrone's reply to the people behind SE because he didn't got to release the initial project 'Don't let me be misunderstood'. I'm not saying this is correct. However few people have told me Cerrone was in the running of producing 'Don't let me misunderstood', and didn't make it in the end. 'House' was his reply, 'Revelacion' being his alter ego.
I always thought it made sense, as Cerrone's work never included gipsy guitars, and he never used alter ego's at that time.

If this information is incorrect, I would like to know. If so, many Cerrone fans might be disappointed.

Thanks!

Not being able to release it could definitely start that kind of fire !

I've never heard that story, but here's one way that it could be broken down:

Fauves Puma was the production company of Jean Manuel De Scrano (sp) and Nicholas Skorsky.

Malligator was of course, Cerrone's.

Both individuals used Don Ray aka Raymond Donnez to do arrangements on particular projects. I believe they also used similar musicians, engineers and studios as well (but don't quote me just yet )

I think it's more that the success of one project over the other and there may have been some jealousy involved. Costandinos worked with Skorsky on Crystal Grass (as a writer under the psuedonym R. Rupen) and he as a potential collaborator but not a producer, would have been a much more logical fit.

I have never known the two camps to have ever worked together. These rivalries are commonplace in every level of the industry, but in this case, the 'rumour' or thought of Cerrone producing it may be unfounded and it was purely a case of one person covering a song and another, for whatever reason, doing it as well.

Vince

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

...I heard a totally different story. ... I came to my ears that 'House of the Rising Sun' was Cerrone's reply to the people behind SE because he didn't got to release the initial project 'Don't let me be misunderstood'. ... If this information is incorrect, I would like to know.

That sounds like a toned-down version of the bizarro-world rumor that brought me to DiscoMusic.com, in the first place.

But look at it practically...

The release dates don't add-up for that scenario. The Cerrone-related LP was released, last. So, if in fact, it was "Cerrone's reply..", why would he wait almost a full year to record it?

And, although there's an after-market stamp on the back of the Revelacion LP that states "A Cerrone Production", the LP itself is billed as "An Original Crocos Production". Essentially, by C. Jeremy & Don Ray. Cerrone gives himself writers credit, with Don Ray on "Revelacion Suite", but more than likely, a royalties ploy.

Similarly, Leslie O'Hara's "Gypsy Boy" LP was 'an original Disques Ibach Recording'. But had an after-market stamp on the cover that states "A Cerrone Production", solely because it was signed to Crocos Records, for the LP release. Actually, Cerrone had nothing to do with the LP. Save, licensing and releasing it (And, coincidentally, the Alec Costandinos nom de plum, 'R. Rupens', appears on the O'Hara LP, for the track "Figaro Baby".)

As for Cerrone's pseudonyms; Revelacion contains, mostly, the usual French-Disco studio people, on a Malligator-distributed label. But KONGAS, has always been considered as Cerrone's otra persona.

Lastly, from my own experience in the business-side of the music business, (and I'm hopin' Vince will back-me-up on this) people don't have the time, nor money to waste, on producing "Grudge" projects. Particularly, pre-synthesizers. Back then it could, easily, cost over $10,000 to produce a quality LP. I recall Jurgen Korduletsch telling me that 'Lipstique's' LP, "At The Discoteque" cost $14,000 to make! Think about that amount of money, back in 1977.

It seems to me, where you have these big names, big egos, and little-to-no accountable, historic references to draw upon... The fans want things to be more dramatic, and colorful than they probably were.

[STEPHEN L FREEMAN]

Not being able to release it could definitely start that kind of fire !
I've never heard that story, but here's one way that it could be broken down:
Vince

:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:
While I'm reading, you're writing.
While I'm writing, you're reading.

We've got to stop meeting like this! People will talk...

SHHHH..!
My husband's out of town.
Meet me in the parking lot at Starbucks.