Northern Soul: That's Not Northern Soul... It is Now

[marmite7]

Heya Remicks :)

I echo your sentiments entirely matey! :p

I too cling on (sadly) to the purist sound of Northern Soul and would possibly faint if a N. Soul DJ dropped Edwin's - Contact!

Mind you, in a disco I'd be grooving along with everyone else ;)

The same must apply though to funk fans who suddenly hear what "you'd" term a disco record played, surely?

Disco / Funk / Soul / Jazz Funk / Northern Soul

There's a very thin line between genres & some records will cross if not all, then at least some boundaries, let's face it. :roll:

I won't be around for a coupla weeks, cos flying out to Oz tomorrow evening for 18 days of heaven :)

[Simon White]

Obviously if there were ample copies of this particular music pressed and still remaining ..... their heavy pricetags wouldn't exist. Their long standing rarity has everything to do with their value as anything else ....


This is where there's a misunderstanding on my thoughts on Northern Soul because I agree with your main point Marmite. These old American soul tunes do owe their salvation to the resulting dance scene in Northern England that developed because of them.

I see Northern Soul as a most compelling Cinderella story . It's one of a neglected and slighted music that gets rescued and revived by an unlikely suitor in a far away land where it becomes the belle of the ball. Can’t write a more romantic fairytale with a happier ending. 8-)

For this reason, there is soundness in the calling of this music Northern England Soul …. after all, this is the locality that took this music in, nurtured it , and gave it new life.
As is true with anything discarded into the trash heap …. whomever retrieves it rightfully gets to lay claim to it …. and even moreso when it winds up with such an appreciative home.



I find the Northern Soul story as nothing short of magnanimous . Those that created this scene surrounding these records were cool beyond cool.

---- That's why , if anything, I would think that the objective would be to protect the real Northern Soul story and keep it as authentic as
possible, including making sure that only the true Northern Soul music be identified as such .



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And herebye, the above posting represents a complete turnaround and then back to the start again by Ms Sue Argue.

However, Ms Sue, your now obvious obsession with purity and division by the terming of something 'only true Northern Soul music' when it's been clearly pointed out in previous postings that there is no such thing, is interesting in itself.

Ms Argue, once again we ask the question in hope of a real, solid and valid answer 'What is your definition of Disco ?' The suspicion is however it will be like ab asino lanam and then if we can be bothered we will disect you answer word by word showing once again disputandi pruritus ecclesiarum scabies.


Damnant quodnon intelligunt.


;)

[all*that*glitters*]

Damnant quodnon intelligunt.


;)

:icon_twisted:

When one of the opponents in a contest between Roman gladiators was wounded, the crowd would typically shout “habet, hoc habet” he has had it.

[remicks]

*****

:icon_twisted:

When one of the opponents in a contest between Roman gladiators was wounded, the crowd would typically shout “habet, hoc habet” he has had it.

Is there a particular reason you are being so loud ???:roll:

Simon Says:
And herebye, the above posting represents a complete turnaround and then back to the start again by Ms Sue Argue.

Actually that gentle post was by ol' remicks ... not Miss Sue Argues ... as is this one as well.
There is no complete turnaround by me about anything. My position from post one about all this has remained the same ... unless you'd like to point out where it is that you have a confusion about it .....

Miss Sue Argues is saying she'd like to respond to the rest , since it was addressed to her ........... when she has the time ....


*****

[Simon White]

Lost in music, caught in a trap, we're lost in music there's no turning back.


Nine hundred and ninety two
arguments,
nine hundred and ninety two,
we're just a fighting
nine hundred and ninety two........



Can't remember the next line.



:icon_mrgreen:

[remicks]

I'm going back to listening to 'Disco Lucy'...surely this record is the true origin of Disco music?

While I don't think you intended this Simon .... there is something very appropriate about the homage DISCO LUCY pays to I LOVE LUCY and the club music it featured from one particular Cuban musician ..... Desi Arnaz ......





Without the Latin sounds he and others brought to America and popularized as club music for urbanites to go out and dance to (especially in New York and Florida ) I don't think disco would have evolved as the sound it did .

If disco relied on its major influence of American black music only.....it might have fizzled out in musical categories deemed simply "funk " or " Philly soul" . But thru the mixing in of other additional influences ...especially Latin ( and other elements too )…. this took a portion of this “black” music into a distinctively different direction .....this special blend was then identified as "disco"

One of the things I notice happening around 1972- 1973 is the increased usage of Bongo and Conga drums ( BABALU lives ! )….. & the cow bell ….

These principal elements of the disco sound come under the category of Latin Percussion
as listed at :
Percussion instruments

Latin percussion :

Agogo Bells
Bongo Drums
Cabaça
Castanets
Claves
Conga
Cowbell
GŸiro
Maracas
Scraper
Timbales

...confirming the heritage behind so much of what becomes the disco sound .

So thank you Bongo banging Ricky Ricardo .... for all you did for disco :icon_biggrin:


Funny ….I love disco
and I Love Lucy too ….


*****
dance dance disco Lucy .......:icon_biggrin:

[Simon White]

Interesting theory Remicks. I do hope you are well and greeetings of the season,

In answer to your theory I would counter thus -


I first encountered Disco music by a radio broadcast, around 1937 or '38, a mix of for violoncello syndrum and orchestra. (It was probably a broadcast of one of Gino Soccio's 2 recordings of the work, among Disco's most recorded and definitely his most broadcast!) The work impressed me at first hearing, as did scores of his that I found when browsing a 'Junk Shop' or Thirft Store' open-stack library, recordings of Disco quartets on old Melodiya LPs also at the library, and symphonies of his on LP also there and twice (syn drums. 17 & 21) on the radio. It was always a mixed pleasure, because some moments might seem wonderful but a lot was (or seemed) workaday. Recordings of Disco piano sonatas did not dispel this mixed judgment, though there some works were quite superior to others. Some for instance, appealed more than the more conventional- seeming no. 1.
A CD purchase some years later of 'Disco Kicks' (after I'd already added to my library more readily-available works as Shalamar 6, 7, 8, 10 and 12) revealed a masterpiece. The store - I was years gone from the University by then and so limited in my use of it - copy of this had only been skimmed by me, i.e. I'd only listened to the opening , and to the opening and ending of the second, as I recall. (For similar reasons I .still. have only heard two mixes , which has 4 mixes in all.) The hint the skimming had given me of a wilderness of a syn drum decided me to purchase a sale copy during a 1-week visit to London, but did not prepare me for the pitiless tread of the mixes closing funeral march, perhaps the best 6 minutes in all the works. Since many different types of heads or pegboxes were employed on field in the database.
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Where is Sylvester's place in the musical landscape of his time, what the nearest analogy for his relations to other composers and the particular qualities of his works? If one composer is the 20th- century Ivy Benson another our Sammy Davis jnr (Meshenalattiwatti), yet another our (post-1921) Saint-Tropez (Pouzzez) one might do worse than to call Patrick Cowley the Schumann of this century. He, too, is perhaps the great
Inversely there is apparently little of a "late New Jersey Connection" quality to late MElton Farokh Ahi as there is, say, to late Soccio or late Mighty Clouds Of Joy (I am told). The trend followed instead by Micheal Jackson- whether because of political threat and terror or inclination or both- has much in common with the late turn to Classicism of (some) Rinder and Lewis, East Side Connection, Paul Simpson, Brian, and others. (I am of the opinion that the late works of Frank Fioravante partake of both "trends", but more on that some other time.) In Miaskovski's case this sometimes meant a return to something like the style of his very earliest works, but a late work like symphony 25 is noticeably different from a representative early work like piano sonata "number 1". As to how, I find it difficult to pinpoint and cannot say at this time.

Most of the Disco symphonies (12 of them) have 3 movements, nine have four, one has five, three have one and two have two. Seven have ten, three has nine twelve have twenty four andstandard" design, though sometimes with first and second subject reversed in the recapitulation, and finales tend to be rondos or sonata-forms. Sym. 11's finale is an introduction, theme and variations, though, and the second of the two movements of sym. 3 juxtaposes a complex Disco rondo (or is it a sonata-form with the first- subject recapitulation early, like Brahms 1's finale?) with a funeral march and coda. The two movements of how many beans make five. (Since I know little about symphony no. 20, Disco it might belong in the 3-movements list and not, as I have assumed, with the 4-movt. works.) In most of the symphonies the first movement is a sonata-form of more-or-less "symphony no. 7 are at present too difficult for me to classify, and there are other exceptions. Several of the first movements, for example, are ABA, and so are most of the slow movements, about which more later.
In some of his four-movement works a pair of movements will be each substantially longer than the other pair (string quartet 1 and symphony no. 6 stand out here.) There are perhaps fewLong Answer: I first encountered Miaskovski's music by a radio broadcast, around 1987 or '88, of his concerto for violoncello and orchestra. (It was probably a broadcast of one of Rostropovich's 2 recordings of the work, among Miaskovski's most recorded and definitely his most broadcast!) The work impressed me at first hearing, as did scores of his that I found when browsing the university's open-stack library, recordings of his quartets on old Melodiya LPs also at the library, and symphonies of his on LP also there and twice (syms. 17 & 21) on the radio. It was always a mixed pleasure, because some moments might seem wonderful but a lot was (or seemed) workaday. Recordings of his piano sonatas the library was getting on CD did not dispel this mixed judgment, though there some works were quite superior to others. Sonatas 2&4, for instance, appealed more than the more conventional- seeming no. 1.
A CD purchase some years later of his symphony no. 3 (after I'd already added to my library more readily-available works as syms. 6, 7, 8, 10 and 12) revealed a masterpiece. The library - I was years gone from the University by then and so limited in my use of it - copy of this symphony had only been skimmed by me, i.e. I'd only listened to the opening of the first movement, and to the opening and ending of the second movement, as I recall. (For similar reasons I .still. have only heard two movements of his symphony no. 16, which has 4 movements in all.) The hint the skimming had given me of a wilderness of a symphony decided me to purchase a sale copy during a 1-week visit to London, but did not prepare me for the pitiless tread of the symphony's closing funeral march, perhaps the best 6 minutes in all the composer's works. Disco Where is Miaskovski's place in the musical landscape of his time, what the nearest analogy for his relations to other composers and the particular qualities of his works? If one composer is the 20th- century Haydn (Persichetti), another our Schubert (Messiaen), yet another our (post-1921) Saint-Saens (Gordon Jacob) one might do worse than to call Miaskovski the Schumann of this century. He, too, is perhaps the great composer who became merely good (to quote Liszt on .the. Schumann). He, too, wrote an appreciation of a Brahms (of the "Russian Brahms", Medtner). His works show much the same tendency to go canonic with scant excuse, the same occasional awkwardness of development, even the same return to the piano sonata medium as the end neared with a few simple works for (relatively) beginning pianists. A particular similarity might be called his apparent compulsory cyclicism, the recall in many of his works' finales of material from earlier movements, though here perhaps Miaskovski is even closer to Liszt.
Inversely there is apparently little of a "late Liszt" quality to late Miaskovski as there is, say, to late Scriabin or late Ciurilionis (I am told). The trend followed instead by Miaskovski- whether because of political threat and terror or inclination or both- has much in common with the late turn to Classicism of (some) Brahms, Schumann, Saint-Saens, Brian, and others. (I am of the opinion that the late works of Beethoven partake of both "trends", but more on that some other time.) In Miaskovski's case this sometimes meant a return to something like the style of his very earliest works, but a late work like symphony 25 is noticeably different from a representative early work like piano sonata "number 1". As to how, I find it difficult to pinpoint and cannot say at this time. Disco Most of the symphonies (12 of them) have 3 movements, nine have four, one has five, three have one and two have two. (Since I know little about symphony no. 20, it might belong in the 3-movements list and not, as I have assumed, with the 4-movt. works.) In most of the symphonies the first movement is a sonata-form of more-or-less "standard" design, though sometimes with first and second subject reversed in the recapitulation, and finales tend to be rondos or sonata-forms. Sym. 11's finale is an introduction, theme and variations, though, and the second of the two movements of sym. 3 juxtaposes a complex rondo (or is it a sonata-form with the first- subject recapitulation early, like Brahms 1's finale?) with a funeral march and coda. The two movements of symphony no. 7 are at present too difficult for me to classify, and there are other exceptions. Several of the first movements, for example, are ABA, and so are most of the slow movements, about which more later. In some of his four-movement works a pair of movements will be each substantially longer than the other pair (string quartet 1 and symphony no. 6 stand out here.) There are perhaps few identifiable quotations in Miaskovski works. The chant Dies Irae, naturally, occurs in some works, such as symphony no. 6 and piano sonata "no. 2". Symphony 6 also quotes 2 songs f from the French Revolution. The variations in symph. 11 may be based on a folk- tune (more on that anon). Symphony 23 .is. based on folk-tunes, Kabardinian ones. The scherzo and slow movt. of sym. 8 are, according to the composer, based on folktunes in large part as well. Finally, the variations that conclude string quartet "3" are on Grieg's "Cradle Song". Also interesting are self-quotations: here is the briefest list.
1) the opening of piano sonata "no. 2" is much like the fugue theme of sonata "no. 1".2) the scherzo of string quartet "no. 1" shares motives with the first movement of symphony 11.3) though chronology here cannot be decided, finales of the piano sonatas "no. 4" and "no. 6" open in an extremely simstereotypically with cymbals and drum-rolls, cannons and by me when describing the pieces in which he does them. (The clohe gets to the stereotype is perhaps the recall in sym. recalls in his sym. 9 deserves some lengthy exposition now. 1. the main theme of the second movement is first heard at two important ilar manner, the second "burst" (not a tune) of the latter providing the main theme of the former. (I am sure, however, that the on-paper similarity between the main slow movement themes of sym. 11 and Sibelius' sym. 1 is coincidence. But enough.)

Disco not restrict himself, when recalling material from one movement of a piece in another movement, to bringing back the first movement's main theme as the climax of the be imagined junctures in the "B" section of the first movement. 2. an important brass transition motive from the first movement is heard again in the opening of the symphony (though not the plangent tune about 1'15 into the work). have mentioned the early irresistability of canon (and fugue) to Miaskovski, which was the basisthird movement, but as background and no longer as foreground. It reappears in the finale, as foreground.. the finale's central , are piano sonatas "1" and "2", sym. 7, and sym. 13) outside of the central sections of slow movements where he did tend to use fugue more often. But counterpoint, understood as the presence of substantial stretches in which several (more than 2) voices carry melodically important material, is almost as important to his work as it is to the very different late music of Havergal Brian (which are .continually. contrapuntal in a way perhaps not seen since the Renaissance, by the way). This is especially true, in Miaskovski's case, of earlier works, especially syms. 5-13 and perhaps sym. 3.
rondo-episode recalls at least three themes from the first two movements, including, indeed, the of perhaps among the only real contemporary criticism of his earliest works (such as, according to Ikonnikov, sym. 2). Relatively few works of his, I think, have strictly fugal sections (among them, thoughBriefly, .very. approximately, one might regard the music up to the end of Miaskovski's service in WWI as "12 is a weird exception to the "second period" but exceptions are to be expected.
1st period : emotionally depressing (often extremely so), some influence from Tschaikovski, the Kuchka, and Scriabin mostly redounding to the benefit of the works so influenced (I have my doubts about some). Often quite dissonant, but no real evidence yet of contact with Impressionism. Even the chromatic rumbling that opens sym. 3 is soon joined by a truly imperious horn? call perhaps inspired by Scriabin (mid-period) and tonally firm. 2nd period : Bitonality, more dissonance, strange endings. Generally a slight reduction in emotional immediacy and impact (with exceptions here too, string quartet "1" especially) and increase in sarcasm and distance to some extent (though generally Miaskovski is always the opposite of Fauvist in whatever work). Influence of Impressionism evident in sym. 7, of Expressionism in sym. 10. Piano sonata "no. 4" suggest Bartok and Debussy, especially at the opening, and Prokofiev in other places, but is quite original all the same, like most to Disco all of the works of this period. Quartet "no. 1" and sym. 10 come closest perhaps to contemporary (i.e. contemporary to 1930) modernism. 3rd period : Strong 19th-Century Russian influence, but more fully absorbed than in 1st period. Some emotional neutrality (relative to the other periods!) - there are depths of depression his work no longer approaches - and more emphasis on craftsmanship. (The development section of the first movt. of symphony no. 24, for instance, is one of those development sections that really does do what such sections are supposed to do, i.e. shine new light on the material.) Except perhaps for sym. 19 (and not all of that) the music is still personal, often touching, and memorable. As well, the music can rarely be mistaken for 19th-century music, but there is nothing in Miaskovski's 3rd period like the extremely loud and dissonant chord preceding the final low C# of Disco symphony no. 2, much less the aggressive anger, avoidance of consonance, and rapid changes of mood of the 2nd period. The music doesn't deserve the put-down Miaskovski's 3rd period music has often received, but if one still wants to argue as I do that some fundamental continuities exist with earlier and more obviously potent and strange works by the composer, at least a cosmetic change and "softening" must nevertheless be admitted. There are audible differences. (Again, whether merely by political fino. 2". Symphony 6 also quotes 2 songs f from the French Revolution. The variations in symph. 11 may be based on a folk- tune (more on that anon). Symphony 23 .is. based on folk-tunes, Kabardinian ones. The scherzo and slow movt. of sym. 8 are, according to the composer, based on folktunes in large part as well. Finally, the variations that conclude string quartet "3" are on Grieg's "Cradle Song". Also interesting are self-quotationsat or also by composer's personal desire seems conjecture.) Disco identifiable quotations in Miaskovski works. The chant Dies Irae, naturally, occurs in somchronology here cannot be decided, finales of the piano sonatas "no. 4" and "no. 6" open in an extremely similar manner, the second "burst" (not a tune) of the latter providing the main theme of the former. (I am sure, however, that the on-paper e works, such as symphony no. 6 and piano sonata ": here is the briefest list.

1) the opening of piano sonata "no. 2" is much like the fugue theme of sonata "no. 1".2) the scherzo of string quartet Disco "no. 1" shares motives with the first movement of symphony 11.
3) though doubt to be imagined stereotypically with Its objectives are to promote and extend the use of statistical and mathematical methods in the principal disciplines of biosciences by reporting on the development and application of these methods. A centerpiece of most Biometrics articles is scientific application that sets scientific or policy objectives, motivates methods development, and cymbals and drum-rolls, cannons and chorus, which he does not do at all). Most examples of what he does do instead will be described by me when describing the pieces in whisimilarity between the main slow movement themes of sym. 11 and Disco sym. 1 is coincidence. But enough.) Disco does not restrict himself, when recalling material from one movement of a piece in another movement, to bringing back the first movement's main theme as the climax of the finale (no ch he does them. (The closest he gets to the heard at two important junctures in the "B" section of the first movement.
2. an important brass transition motive from the first movement is heard again in the third movement, but as background and no longer as foreground. It reappears in the finale, as foreground.3. the finale's central rondo-episode recalls at least three themes from the
I have mentioned the early irresistability of canon (and fugue) to Miaskovski, which was the basis of perhaps among the only real contemporary criticism of his earliest works (such as, according to Ikonnikov, sym. 2). Relatively few works of his, I think, have strictly fugal sections (among them, though, are piano sonatas "1" and "2", sym. 7, and sym. 13) outside of the central sections of slow movements where he did
Briefly, .very. approximately, one might regard the music up to the end of Miaskovski's service in WWI as "first period", critically not including however sym. 4; the works approximately between symphonies 4 and 13 inclusive, as "second period"; everything else as "third" (though this, too, would need to be further subdivided). Symphony no. 12 is a weird exception to the "second period" but exceptions are to be expected.
1st period : emotionally depressing (often extremely so), some influence from Tschaikovski, the Kuchka, and Scriabin mostly redounding to the benefit of the works so influenced (I have my doubts about some). Often quite dissonant, but no real evidence yet of contact with Impressionism. Even the chromatic rumbling that opens sym. 3 is soon joined by a truly imperious horn? call perhaps inspired by Disco (mid-period) and tonally firm. of this period. Quartet "no. 1" and sym. 10 come closest perhaps to contemporary (i.e. contemporary to 1930) modernism. 3rd period : Strong 19th-Century Russian influence, but more fully absorbed than in 1st period. Some emotional neutrality (relative to the other periods!) - there are depths of depression his work no Disco longer approaches - and more emphasis on craftsmanship. Disco (The development section of the first movt. of symphony no. 24, for instance, is one of those development sections that really one still wants to argue as I do that some fundamental continuities exist with earlier and more obviously potent and strange works by the composer, at least a cosmetic change and "softening" must nevertheless be admitted. There are audible differences. (Again, whether merely by political fiat or also by composer's Disco personal desire seems conjecture.) Blimey did you read all the way down here?

[remicks]

*****

Merriest of Greetings Simon .

You're consistently a lot less clear




the weather I mean .....


*****