Northern Soul: That's Not Northern Soul... It is Now

[tony98]

as a dj in n.e.england in the 70's a lot of disco i played is now rated northern soul.including- jackie moore-both ends against the middle, futures-party time man, bill harris-am i cold am i hot .northern soul fans at the time gave me thumbs down - revenge is sweet -tony98

[eddie]

The northern soul crowd is quite tough to say the least. Northern soul meets disco is one of my favorite styles because you are blending older and newer styles while maintaining roots. Those songs you mentioned are really great!!

Northern soul is all about a certain driving beat (think the Four Tops tracks of the 60's). But crowds demanded quite obscure cuts with quite often less than perfect vocals. To each his own but there the most demanding crowd and Dj's didn't always know what cuts to play.

[tony98]

although nothern soul crowds only wanted uptempo motown style tracks,in recent years tempo's have slowed and more 70's mid tempo's have broken into the scene, a big recent track is something a lot of you may know - the brothers -are you ready for this- on rca although i don't think thev'e found the vocal version by -revelation -on rso

[DISCODISK]

as a dj in n.e.england in the 70's a lot of disco i played is now rated northern soul.including- jackie moore-both ends against the middle, futures-party time man, bill harris-am i cold am i hot .northern soul fans at the time gave me thumbs down - revenge is sweet -tony98

er yes all of those were played as new releases

[tony98]

Blackpool mecca did play the tracks i mentioned,but in Ian Levine & Colin Curtis they had the most innovative djs. Wigan Casino did play -I love music - You know how to love me -Heaven must be missing an angel and a few others,but the majority of northern soul clubs stuck to oldies.I worked in a record shop for over 30 years i know from first hand experience about narrow minded northern soul attitudes in the 70's.

[hope]

FRANK WILSON - DO I LOVE YOU ( indeed i do)

has to b my favourite northern soul track

[tony98]

Look out for another version of "Do i love you" by Chris Clarke.

[hope]

will do thank you :grin:

[Simon White]

although nothern soul crowds only wanted uptempo motown style tracks,in recent years tempo's have slowed and more 70's mid tempo's have broken into the scene, a big recent track is something a lot of you may know - the brothers -are you ready for this- on rca although i don't think thev'e found the vocal version by -revelation -on rso

Certain Northern fans have found the Revelation version but...it doesn't work as well as a Northern track, not being quite as overtly 'dancey'

[tony98]

I'm not quite sure what Northern Soul is any more with a lot of 70's stuff getting played.I have a friend who's very clued up about the Northern scene,when he rings me he'll say "you must have so & so it's breaking big " and i'll say "yes i've the 7" & the album,but that's not Northern Soul", and his answer "It is now".

[remicks]

*****

It's true .....everything now seems to be Northern Soul ..... ..... It seems quite exaggerated .... but the trick now is to tag any obscure non-hit soul song as Northern Soul as it seems to raise their sale value a few bucks ....

I wonder if the same thing is /will happen to disco as latter days will try to insist the hits that never were are the "real " disco .

As time marches on .... what proof is there for the truth ?? What was actually played .... what was popular ... what wasn't ??

Luckily when it comes to disco ..there is some documentation . I'll forever continue to cry out THANK ALLAH ALMIGHTY FOR THE CHARTS !!!

So that whenever someone tries to say The Bee Gees weren't really disco, its a simple matter of whipping out the Billboard disco chart from the fall of 1976 when the Bee Gees were right there at the top of all the rest no less ...... at #1 .....

and saying "And what about that , Mr. Fong ???!! "

:p:lol:


*****

[Simon White]

Woah, now we're getting into dangerous territory! :icon_mrgreen:

As has already been pointed out, the Northern Soul clubs have been playing what some would call 'Disco' since the mid seventies....well the ones who don't operate an almost exclusively 60's Soul policy at least. Tracks that most in these forums would term as 'Disco' (as a positive thing rather than the disparaging term it is often, but not always, given within the Northern Soul scene itself)) like 'Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel' Bessie Banks 'Don't You Worry Baby' The Trammps 'Hold Back The Night' The Nights 'When You Dropped Your Guard', Ecstasy, Passion And Pain 'Ask Me' Ultra High Frequency 'We're On The Right Track' Lily Fields 'Love Has So Many Meanings, Rare Pleasure 'Let Me Down Easy' ,Lew Kirton 'Heaven In The Afternoon' , Silvetti 'Spring Rain' , Sons Of Robin Stone 'Got To Get You Back', Ace Spetrum 'Don't Send Nobody Else' Crown Heights Affair 'Dreamin A Dream' Lolleatta Holloway 'I Know Where You're Coming From', The Spinners 'I Just Want To Fall In Love', Street People 'You're My One Weakness Girl', Mary Wilson 'You're The Light That Guides My Way', Chuck Jackson 'I've Got The Need' , Skip Mahoney 'Janice', Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' Crystal Motion 'Main Squeeze' James Wells 'Baby, I'm Still The Same Man' , Double Exposure ' Ten Per Cent' ,King Tutt 'You Got Me Hung Up', Jan Jones 'Independant Woman', The Moments 'Nine Times', Gentlemen and Their Lady 'Like Her' , The Pages 'Heartache And Pain', Brainstorm's 'Lovin Is Really My Game' etc etc have all been played at some point in Northern Soul clubs. One track that is currently being played all over again is Tyrone Barclay's 'Man Of Value' and recently popular is the fantastic and previously unreleased Bobby Cutchins Philly styled track 'Leaving' which was issued on 45 on 'Soul Junction' by Grapevine records, a label that has released and re-released many many Northern Soul tracks in the past like The Flaming Emeralds' Have Some Everybody'.

Northern Soul (uptempo 60's club dance music) has a very close connection with what (musically) came later...70's uptempo club dance music...or....Disco.

Gloria Gaynor's first record 'She'll Be Sorry' is well known to Northern Soulies (without actually being that popular ..it's too easily available), and early recordings by Thelma Houston 'Baby Mine', Geraldine Hunt 'Winner Takes All' (expensive!) Sharon Redd (see Gloria Gaynor) Honey And The Bees (members of The Ritchie Family) members of The Glories and Orthia Barnes...who were both in the group Cut Glass, The Moods, who became in part at least The Trammps, The O'Jays, who have a number of their 60's tracks in the Northern Soul top tracks, plus, behind the decks and instruments, men like Meco Mernado, who's name appears on The Casualeers great 'Dance Dance Dance' and Vince Montana, names like Gamble and Huff ...Kenny Gambles 'The Jokes On You' is a big money record and the ex Mrs Gamble, Dee Gee Sharp whos 60's recording 'Deep Dark Secret' has been selling for big money in recent years, Sidney Barnes (Arpeggio) is a Northern Soul hero and so on.....

Northern Soul is a law unto itself...a record can qualify on a combination of rarity, collectability, quality, dancabilty (as in the previously mentioned Brothers track, not a rare record at all but one that has been a proven dancefloor winner) or a history from the early days when records like Kim Westons 'Helpless' were played as new releases. But the common denomonator is always the Northern Soul dance style (and Northern soul clubs have a very distictive one) which means a record can either be really really fast or a beat ballad. 7" singles are far more desirable than 12" singles although in some cases the 12" version of a track is collectable too....but none spring to mind readily !

Ebay has pushed the prices of some 45's into riduculous numbers and again as has been pointed out, a huge amount of what is described as 'Northern Soul' is nothing of the sort. Whether it's just a lack of knowledge on the part of the seller or a manipulation of the market.... but that coupled with the publishing of the various price guides have seen the collecting market go haywire recently.
As for the scenes history...a few books have been mentioned. I would definately go for 'The In Crowd' , I would read Ian Levines section in 'Last Night A Deejay Saved My Life' and I would geta copy of Kev Roberts 'Northern Soul Top 500' because its full of bits of information.


I feel a CDR coming on !

[remicks]

Woah, now we're getting into dangerous territory! :icon_mrgreen:

Tracks that most in these forums would term as 'Disco' (as a positive thing rather than the disparaging term it is often, but not always, given within the Northern Soul scene itself)) like 'Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel' Bessie Banks 'Don't You Worry Baby' The Trammps 'Hold Back The Night' The Nights 'When You Dropped Your Guard', Ecstasy, Passion And Pain 'Ask Me' Ultra High Frequency 'We're On The Right Track' Lily Fields 'Love Has So Many Meanings, Rare Pleasure 'Let Me Down Easy' ,Lew Kirton 'Heaven In The Afternoon' , Silvetti 'Spring Rain' , Sons Of Robin Stone 'Got To Get You Back', Ace Spetrum 'Don't Send Nobody Else' Crown Heights Affair 'Dreamin A Dream' Lolleatta Holloway 'I Know Where You're Coming From', The Spinners 'I Just Want To Fall In Love', Street People 'You're My One Weakness Girl', Mary Wilson 'You're The Light That Guides My Way', Chuck Jackson 'I've Got The Need' , Skip Mahoney 'Janice', Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' Crystal Motion 'Main Squeeze' James Wells 'Baby, I'm Still The Same Man' , Double Exposure ' Ten Per Cent' ,King Tutt 'You Got Me Hung Up', Jan Jones 'Independant Woman', The Moments 'Nine Times', Gentlemen and Their Lady 'Like Her' , The Pages 'Heartache And Pain', Brainstorm's 'Lovin Is Really My Game' etc etc have all been played at some point in Northern Soul clubs.

:icon_twisted::icon_twisted::icon_twisted:

Watch out disco fans !!!

The Northern Soul scene is trying to claim OUR MUSIC !!!!! :evil::evil::evil:

Just remember ....
The northern soul scene was a REgressive movemnt .....an intentional attempt to cling to a sound popularized back in the sixties.

The disco scene was a PROgressive. movement ... we used our dance music to take us to a whole new place in time ......


*****

[Simon White]

:icon_twisted::icon_twisted::icon_twisted:

Watch out disco fans !!!

The Northern Soul scene is trying to claim OUR MUSIC !!!!! :evil::evil::evil:

Just remember ....
The northern soul scene was a REgressive movemnt .....an intentional attempt to cling to a sound popularized back in the sixties.

The disco scene was a PROgressive. movement ... we used our dance music to take us to a whole new place in time ......


*****

Far from it. Disco was purely and simply a continuation of the uptempo club dance music of the 60's like Motown and a host of lesser known labels....which often became well known on the Northern Soul Scene. The problem with Disco and it's fans is that it didn't move on, it just either commercialised to the point of nausea (Rod Stewart,Abba, Leif Garrett, The Bee Gees, ect) or continued to repeat the same formula without adding anything therefore killing itself.
Far from being regressive, the Northern Soul scene is still a movement that takes in recordings from the very early 60's right through to current day, recordings like a track called 'A Tribute to Betty' by an artist I cannot remember and the great Ron Hall and the Muthafunkas. The Northern Soul scene is closely allied with another popular sub genre, 'Modern soul' which is more about down tempo music and which has recently seen live performances in the UK by Lenny Williams, Genn Jones, Phil Perry, Jean Carne, Billy Paul, Dexter Wansell, Bunny sigler ect ect.
The fact is the USA totally ignored the sheer brilliance of a lot of it's own music, now tagged 'Northern' Soul as new releases in the same way as it killed Disco through a combination of rascism and homophobia. Without the Northern Soul scenes absolute commitment to the music, thousands of 1960's recordings would have been been consigned to the American rubbish tips, hundreds of fantastic unreleased Motown recordings would have been lost, Hi Energy would not have actually existed which would in turn have effected the early House movement and quite possibly the global re -rise of uptempo dance as a full on commercial phenomenon.:D

[remicks]

*****

Disco was an actual intentional music form ..... artists purposefully created disco music for us .
Northern Soul is artificial. It only existed because a couple of clubs were featuring neglected music from other actual areas of music that had no idea Northern Soul was even a concept. For Northern Soul to claim any music as "theirs" is dishonest .... but let's draw the line at them claiming anything disco .

*****

[Simon White]

*****

Disco was an actual intentional music form ..... artists purposefully created disco music.
Northern Soul is artificial. It only existed because a couple of clubs were featuring neglected music from other actual areas of music that had no idea Northern Soul was even a concept. For Northern Soul to claim any music as "theirs" is dishonest .... but especially disco .

*****

So.....? Now define 'Disco' ?
The fact is there are many tracks that have been popular on the Northern Soul scene that were totally ignored in in the Disco era. And the crass commercial side of Disco won out in the end over the original concept of Disco which was Black dance music. So to claim the Northern Soul scene is dishonest is a strange concept, because they care deeply about the music and the tag Northern Soul is just a conveient one. Of course if you disagree with that then I have to ask..again..define Disco.

[remicks]

So.....? Now define 'Disco' ?
The fact is there are many tracks that have been popular on the Northern Soul scene that were totally ignored in in the Disco era.

If you mean many "disco" tracks .....a list of these would be most appreciated . Regardless .... a list of these woud be appreciated .

the original concept of Disco which was Black dance music.

Sorry, but WRONG !!! Disco has always been color blind.

So to claim the Northern Soul scene is dishonest is a strange concept, because they care deeply about the music and the tag Northern Soul is just a conveient one.

Convenient and dishonest ... just because you appreciate someone from far away 's music doesn't translate to then giving it a certain name that suggests it's therefore "yours" .

Of course if you disagree with that then I have to ask..again..define Disco.

The easiest way to define disco is to go to Marky's Compilation Charts . There it is ..... right before your eyes .8)


*****

[Simon White]

A List..? See my earlier posting for examples...Pages,King Tutt, Tyrone Barclay, ect.:roll:


Somehow I think this can only go nowhere....:-?.... but colour blind?? I don't think so ! Originally Disco was black...fact. It became popular and then pop...and white. And that's largely what killed it. Cher, Beach Boys, Paul Mcartney The Rolling Stones.... fact.




Disco records exist from the very late 60's...and arguably beyond that. A narrow definition doesnt work. I would glady view Markys Compilation Charts if I knew where they were !

[tony98]

The term Northern Soul has been credited to music journalist Dave Godin. In the early 70's he used that phrase to explain the musical differences between Northern & Southern England.The South(Funk&current U.S releases) v/s The North(Uptempo Motown style).So in some ways it is an artificial name. I know the part owner of Grapevine Records,he is the guy who re-masters everything as well ,he lives about two miles from me.

[Simon White]

The term Northern Soul has been credited to music journalist Dave Godin. In the early 70's he used that phrase to explain the musical differences between Northern & Southern England.The South(Funk&current U.S releases) v/s The North(Uptempo Motown style).So in some ways it is an artificial name. I know the part owner of Grapevine Records,he is the guy who re-masters everything as well ,he lives about two miles from me.

Absoultely Tony...and in some ways an artificial name. But one that defines a definate style even if it's a style that didn't exist when the records were made ! (Although the early Levine productions were made in that style and there are other examples like Diane Ducanes 'Better Late Than Never' which some here might like.) Personally I don't think it makes a difference but.... without that definition and style thousands of records would have been consigned to the bins including some that are defined as Disco records.




Mr Mooney eh...say Hi for me!

[remicks]

I would glady view Markys Compilation Charts if I knew where they were !

:icon_surprised: ....and you've been coming here since October '04 ?????

but colour blind?? I don't think so ! Originally Disco was black...fact. It became popular and then pop...and white. And that's largely what killed it. Cher, Beach Boys, Paul Mcartney The Rolling Stones.... fact.

Well, now we know ! ;-) A barrage of White People .... led by Cher and The Rolling Stones killed disco !!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

During the disco era .... I was cluelss as to what color the artists were unless a jacket included a photo ....And I didn't give it any thought either. ( I'm still often surprised one way or another ...and still don't care )
But as for early non-black disco folk .....just quickly .....Meco, Zager, Jabara, Murphy , KC, Moroder, Costandinos, Crewe, John Davis , Biddu .... that's a good start.
Well .... here's another important one ....Tom Moulton .....


*****

[Simon White]

Remicks , yes I registered in October '04 as you state and as anyone can see. What would be more useful and indeed might support your argument is if you just told me where Marky's Compilation Charts actually were ! :-) And well done for being cluless ;-)..... about the colour, that is.


Ok.... so now we have your definition of Disco ..it started around '76/7 for you. :-(
I say it's earlier...Patti Jo 'Make Me Believe In You', Al Downing, Don Downing, Gloria's earlier stuff, Eddie Kendricks ect ect ect. Not denying the COLOUR of the producers you mention...but the fact is Moulton was largely remixing records sung by Black artists (because thats who was singing Disco stuff then, not White artists) which had been then picked up by the general Gay and fashionable crowd, Moroder's big Disco stuff comes later but his main act was Donna Summer, Jon Davis was working with The Philly Devotions and other Philly groups for instance, Bob Crewe had worked with many Black ACTS in the 60's ...not sure what his Disco stuff was?... and most of the names you mention come in when Disco had been around a while..ie post Saturday Night Fever. Zager worked with Cissy Houston, Biddu's biggest hits were with Black acts apart from Tina Charles who had a Black enough voice to work as a session singer on budget remakes of Motown hits apparently...(and he's Indian anyway !) Walter Murphy...hmmmmm.... ect ect.


I suspect what you like is pop music with a dance beat..I like Soul music with a dance beat and that's what early Disco was. To quote Faith hope and charity 'To Each His Own' (thankyou a million times, Van McCoy. Incomparable) Philly has a huge amount of what sounds like early Disco via guys like Bobby Martin..nearly all sung by Black acts..likewise All Platinum and it's associated labels. Gamble and Huff had started their careers at Cameo records and then formed the mighty mighty label that gave us records like 'Love Train' I' Love Music' 'Don't Leave Me This Way' 'Lets Groove' and so on and so on.
The fact is of course the money men were, more often than not, not Black. but thats another story.

But your posting on the Northern Soul scene and your idea that it's stealing your Disco records is pretty funny. They'd be horrified because they mostly hate Disco and they really hate your Pop end of it more than anything else. Luckily they rescued the Soul music that America threw away and made heroes and heroines out of J J Barnes, Jackie Lee, Major Lance, Marv Johnson, The Velvellettes, Brenda Holloway, Pat Lewis and hundreds of others. They played records by Disco artists before they had made Disco records, so by your yardstick YOU stole the Northern Soul scenes new records and therefore prevented them moving as far forward as you think they should have !


Blimey....how did I get into all this ?

[remicks]

And the crass commercial side of Disco won out in the end over the original concept of Disco which was Black dance music. .

I'd like to comment on this, then I'll answer your newer post ...

This idea that Northern Soul is somehow more noble because it was about dancing to non-hits which therefore made the music more "pure" in artform is ludicrous.

All those songs are , are simply crass commercial attempts that didn't make it ! All were recorded with prayers of being a hit !!

Top hold up Motown as somehow the most noble of the most noble of sounds to be imitated is even more ironic ....becaue Berry 's music factory was all about making R&B more commercial & more accessable . Many Motown artists, Marvin Gaye specifically, had to be taken into the studio dragging their feet because they wanted no part of this sell-out music ...

So even IF .... and I don't think this is entirely so ...but even if disco began with Black Dance music ....let's not pretend that those beginnings were not equally as crass as the disco that was to come later. Jimmy Castor , Ohio Players and Don Covay were at least a little more honest in revealing the gimmickry behind the creating of black tunes that were intended to sell by being catchy and clever ...... James Brown is the Godfather of crass gimmicky recordings .... releasing one every few days whenever he heard a new catch phrase..... pass the popcorn please please please.....


*****

[Simon White]

I'd like to comment on this, then I'll answer your newer post ...

This idea that Northern Soul is somehow more noble because it was about dancing to non-hits which therefore made the music more "pure" in artform is ludicrous.

I don't remember saying it was more 'noble' ? I think you're putting worms in my mouse !

All those songs are , are simply crass commercial attempts that didn't make it ! All were recorded with prayers of being a hit !!

Wrong I'm afraid. Some were sizable US hits that didnt make it over here. And errr.. yes I'm sure they were recorded with the idea of being a hit ! :roll:

Top hold up Motown as somehow the most noble of the most noble of sounds to be imitated is even more ironic ....becaue Berry 's music factory was all about making R&B more commercial & more accessable . Many Motown artists, Marvin Gaye specifically, had to be taken into the studio dragging their feet because they wanted no part of this sell-out music ...

I don't remember holding up Motown as 'noble'...let me check.

Nope. So not sure what you're saying here. But your use of the loaded word 'noble' is interesting....:icon_sad:

So even IF .... and I don't think this is entirely so ...but even if disco began with Black Dance music ....let's not pretend that those beginnings were not equally as crass as the disco that was to come later. Jimmy Castor , Ohio Players and Don Covay were at least a little more honest in revealing the gimmickry behind the creating of black tunes that were intended to sell by being catchy and clever ...... James Brown is the Godfather of crass gimmicky recordings .... releasing one every few days whenever he heard a new catch phrase..... pass the popcorn please please please.....


*****

And you finally lost me completely with this last one. So I guess you win !
I do wish I had your clever command of quotation use though. :icon_mrgreen:

[remicks]

Remicks , yes I registered in October '04 as you state and as anyone can see. What would be more useful and indeed might support your argument is if you just told me where Marky's Compilation Charts actually were ! :-) And well done for being cluless ;-)..... about the colour, that is.


Ok.... so now we have your definition of Disco ..it started around '76/7 for you. :-(
I say it's earlier...Patti Jo 'Make Me Believe In You', Al Downing, Don Downing, Gloria's earlier stuff, Eddie Kendricks ect ect ect. Not denying the COLOUR of the producers you mention...but the fact is Moulton was largely remixing records sung by Black artists (because thats who was singing Disco stuff then, not White artists) which had been then picked up by the general Gay and fashionable crowd, Moroder's big Disco stuff comes later but his main act was Donna Summer, Jon Davis was working with The Philly Devotions and other Philly groups for instance, Bob Crewe had worked with many Black ACTS in the 60's ...not sure what his Disco stuff was?... and most of the names you mention come in when Disco had been around a while..ie post Saturday Night Fever. Zager worked with Cissy Houston, Biddu's biggest hits were with Black acts apart from Tina Charles who had a Black enough voice to work as a session singer on budget remakes of Motown hits apparently...(and he's Indian anyway !) Walter Murphy...hmmmmm.... ect ect.


I suspect what you like is pop music with a dance beat..I like Soul music with a dance beat and that's what early Disco was. To quote Faith hope and charity 'To Each His Own' (thankyou a million times, Van McCoy. Incomparable) Philly has a huge amount of what sounds like early Disco via guys like Bobby Martin..nearly all sung by Black acts..likewise All Platinum and it's associated labels. Gamble and Huff had started their careers at Cameo records and then formed the mighty mighty label that gave us records like 'Love Train' I' Love Music' 'Don't Leave Me This Way' 'Lets Groove' and so on and so on.
The fact is of course the money men were, more often than not, not Black. but thats another story.

But your posting on the Northern Soul scene and your idea that it's stealing your Disco records is pretty funny.
It's your original list that proves they are doing just that
!They'd be horrified because they mostly hate Disco and they really hate your Pop end of it more than anything else. Luckily they rescued the Soul music that America threw away and made heroes and heroines out of J J Barnes, Jackie Lee, Major Lance, Marv Johnson, The Velvellettes, Brenda Holloway, Pat Lewis and hundreds of others. They played records by Disco artists before they had made Disco records, so by your yardstick YOU stole the Northern Soul scenes new records and therefore prevented them moving as far forward as you think they should have !


Blimey....how did I get into all this ?

This is riddled with errors ....so I'll have to come back to it .

But NO ..... disco came along way before '76-'77. I know because I was there . There were lots of "disco" tunes in '73 .... some earlier and by 1974 "disco" was an actual concept. The first Billbaord disco chart is from October 1974 ....and that is where the confirmed " history " begins.

Too bad Northern Soul has no such documentation ???
I'm really horrified too that that they appear to now be stealing the earliest disco tunes and trying to claim them as theirs....according to your above list .....

And yes Edwin Starr, as an example , did do some Northern Soul ...but "we" aren't trying to lay claim on any of that . "We" :roll: love CONTACT !!! and please don't try to claim its anything other than crass disco !!

*****

re: including Motown in this ...you didn't say this but Tony did in his post "The North(Uptempo Motown style)" and it has been my understanding that the Northern Soul scene was mostly centered around an uptempo Motown flavoured sound . Not correct ??